Canon: That's how you do a mirrorless launch

Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
5D2? 80D?
80D isn't that old. You also don't need to be a "class leader" to do well. The original 6d was a pretty good value for a while. In certain ways it still is

The 5diii and 5div were among the top of their class at release
I'm sure the EOS R is a good camera,
Meh.......
but Canon is not getting any conquest sales with it.
They don't need to.
They are just relying on their existing user base not leaving.
They have a huge base. That is more than enough for them. You also seem to miss the marketing effect. Canon has the largest distribution network out there. They can move this product in numbers easily.
Not a very strong business strategy IMO.
I am sure they will be just fine. If things don't go well they will just slash the price. Remember the 6dii? A lot of similarities in this discussion. A few short months after release at $2000 Canon was offering it retail at $1400 WITH accessories. It seems after the excess inventory was cleared they have let the price creep back up just a little.
 
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Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience.
Meh. They became a class leader because they killed the early implementations of AF, built a generally good infrastructure and some lines have been very good. In a world where distribution and system commitment matter that made them a force to be reckoned with
Same with this EOS R.
No. The EOS R is something new.

No.Usng it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there.

Early reports aren't great........

Same with reliability.

Sony has been running a one horse race in this category and their cameras have been generally very reliable. Weather sealing is a different issue

Same with service.

This should be a carry over. CPS is definitely a "class leader" and the R should get immediate access to this

Same with lens selection.

"Selection" was the wrong term. They have four lenses announced. That would put them behind only Nikon Z in native. We don't know how well adapted are going to work and Sony has access to a wide swath of adapted lenses with varying tradeoffs. For "selection" Sony has a four year lead. They also have a shared apsc mount
Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.
It ALL matters. Reviewers often do try and involve some of the subjects you discussed. Some of. Some of the issues you discussed are really outside of thier ability to discuss. Ex. "Durabity" there is zero way for a reviewer to know the durability of a model during an initial review
I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
If you want to do cars then there are sorts of similarities and differences. Some of the top sellers do focus on the basics and don't really push the envelope because they don't have to. This is the attitude Canon has been displaying on a lot of it's models.

You also seem to have made up your mind that all those subjective issues are all positive for Canon without any experience or even the availabiility of many serious reviews. Not much I can do with that........

Going back to the title. Canon over promised and underdelivered. Again......if you want to commit to that sorry of treatment then good luck to you.

Good luck man.
 
Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Perhaps. But that doesn't answer the question of which objective issues matter to whom.
 
Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Perhaps. But that doesn't answer the question of which objective issues matter to whom.
Yes,that's the point. Even with objective specs and stats, one can debate which ones matter.

Ergonomics is more subjective but arguably more important to most users than some of the specs.

The specs don't give the whole picture.

So there is no magic formula for deciding which camera system is best for any one user: ideally you take input from multiple sources and then try it out for yourself.
 
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
Yeah, two options. Either they're incompetent or complacent. I don't know which is worse, but one doesn't exclude the other...
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.

[Nikon has the next largest share. The others: Pentax, Fuji, Sigma, Leica, Sony and the rest are fighting for a share of the crumbs that the big two have left for them].
 
Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Perhaps. But that doesn't answer the question of which objective issues matter to whom.
Yes,that's the point. Even with objective specs and stats, one can debate which ones matter.
sure they can debate which ones are more important to each user BUT it is easy to discuss differences in objective issues. Especially if they are far apart
Ergonomics is more subjective but arguably more important to most users than some of the specs.
and "ergonomics" is a different discussion because the world is full of different people, with different bodies, different capabilities, different lens preferences, different shooting styles etc........

although there are sometimes things we can agree on if a device is almost universally panned as having an error or omission
The specs don't give the whole picture.
correct. They do give us a little bit of a picture. Easy example. I don't know if Canon is giving the video output they do because of inability or refusal but it just isn't good next to the competition
So there is no magic formula for deciding which camera system is best for any one user: ideally you take input from multiple sources and then try it out for yourself.
bingo!!!! I actually love this and the point cannot be made enough or understood by some. I am not telling anyone not to buy a canon R. If the specs are good enough for them and they like how it works FOR THEM then go have fun. I am not the one who will be using the camera. Just don't go bragging about how the camera is "better" just because you like it. You sound like an imbecile doing that. Keep in mind this thread was created in the Sony FE boards to troll Sony users. A bit absurd given how underwhelming the camera looks at least on paper. As for the ergonomics and real performance I dunno. The weird little touch sensor thing....... I dunno. Kind of hard to pass judgement based on a few pics. Unless it is Sony........then it would clearly be a comical error
 
Although I get it. Sony is making inroads because they are finally releasing products that appeal to a market. Nikon seems to have taken notice. Of course they too are far behind Canon so they have more pressure than Canon feels.
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
I hate to break it to you, but those are just BS marketing points promoted by DSLR companies when Sony released it's A7 line of cameras. "Class leader on ergonomics and user experience" is absolutely not even a real thing, it is ONLY something people say as an argument against Sony cameras. It is complete a 100% BS viral marketing talking point. If anyone is ever pressed to prove those statements it ends up being "Well to me...", "It just works...", "It's just feels right". It's the exact same BS that apple pulled "It just works", "It's magical". Same with your reliability argument, and lens selection argument.

It's crazy that you think those made up BS completely irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the images you make are more important that what the camera is actually capable of doing. The level of delusion from Canon users is completely insane.
 
Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Perhaps. But that doesn't answer the question of which objective issues matter to whom.
Yes,that's the point. Even with objective specs and stats, one can debate which ones matter.

Ergonomics is more subjective but arguably more important to most users than some of the specs.

The specs don't give the whole picture.

So there is no magic formula for deciding which camera system is best for any one user: ideally you take input from multiple sources and then try it out for yourself.
That is interesting, because it seems that "ergonomics" are only important to people when justifying not purchasing Sony. Not Fuji, who has many cameras that literally don't even have a grip, just Sony. The major issue here is that when deciding a Camera system the only people who can rationally stay with Canon are a tiny tiny minority of professional sports and wildlife shooters. This did not used to be true 10+ years ago, but now that it is Canon users have gone full ****** trying to defend their brand who has left them in the dust of their competitors.
 
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Too often we let others define the field for the debate.
For me we can discuss subjective issues but it is pretty hard to "debate" them. Objective issues are simple.
Perhaps. But that doesn't answer the question of which objective issues matter to whom.
Yes,that's the point. Even with objective specs and stats, one can debate which ones matter.

Ergonomics is more subjective but arguably more important to most users than some of the specs.

The specs don't give the whole picture.

So there is no magic formula for deciding which camera system is best for any one user: ideally you take input from multiple sources and then try it out for yourself.
That is interesting, because it seems that "ergonomics" are only important to people when justifying not purchasing Sony. Not Fuji, who has many cameras that literally don't even have a grip, just Sony. The major issue here is that when deciding a Camera system the only people who can rationally stay with Canon are a tiny tiny minority of professional sports and wildlife shooters. This did not used to be true 10+ years ago, but now that it is Canon users have gone full ****** trying to defend their brand who has left them in the dust of their competitors.
In the past week I shot one event with 2 borrowed Fujis and one event with my current Canons, and I can tell you that the ergonomics of the Fujis were noticeably worse. I made thousands of exposures at each event. The Canon control system and overall handling provided a better, easier experience. It wasn't just that I was more used to the Canons. It was in many small details that were easier to see or easier to do on the Canons. Canon really does provide a highly refined user experience and this was reaffirmed for me with great clarity in the past week.
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
I hate to break it to you, but those are just BS marketing points promoted by DSLR companies when Sony released it's A7 line of cameras. "Class leader on ergonomics and user experience" is absolutely not even a real thing, it is ONLY something people say as an argument against Sony cameras. It is complete a 100% BS viral marketing talking point. If anyone is ever pressed to prove those statements it ends up being "Well to me...", "It just works...", "It's just feels right". It's the exact same BS that apple pulled "It just works", "It's magical". Same with your reliability argument, and lens selection argument.

It's crazy that you think those made up BS completely irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the images you make are more important that what the camera is actually capable of doing. The level of delusion from Canon users is completely insane.
What you say is BS is 100% reality for me. See my comment above.
 
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
Yeah, two options. Either they're incompetent or complacent. I don't know which is worse, but one doesn't exclude the other...
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.

[Nikon has the next largest share. The others: Pentax, Fuji, Sigma, Leica, Sony and the rest are fighting for a share of the crumbs that the big two have left for them].
https://petapixel.com/2018/08/15/sony-is-now-1-in-full-frame-cameras-in-the-us/
 
Canon is still number 1 by a mile and Sony is stuck with 13% market share. That bit of Sony propaganda was for a small sliver in time when they were the only one with a new camera. It would be like saying because a movie was number one this week that means that outgrossed Star Wars.
I think that this is exactly how 6DII and more Canon camera won some prizes.

EVERYBODY is pushing ones propaganda.

BUT there must be something to it, as I´m probably jumping Sony too :-)
 
In the past week I shot one event with 2 borrowed Fujis and one event with my current Canons, and I can tell you that the ergonomics of the Fujis were noticeably worse. I made thousands of exposures at each event. The Canon control system and overall handling provided a better, easier experience. It wasn't just that I was more used to the Canons. It was in many small details that were easier to see or easier to do on the Canons. Canon really does provide a highly refined user experience and this was reaffirmed for me with great clarity in the past week.
Moving to an unfamiliar system is always going to be more difficult in the short term than what you already know. I'd probably not like shooting Canon after years of shooting Sony just due to the learning curve. That doesn't mean its competitors are necessarily worse.
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
I hate to break it to you, but those are just BS marketing points promoted by DSLR companies when Sony released it's A7 line of cameras. "Class leader on ergonomics and user experience" is absolutely not even a real thing, it is ONLY something people say as an argument against Sony cameras. It is complete a 100% BS viral marketing talking point. If anyone is ever pressed to prove those statements it ends up being "Well to me...", "It just works...", "It's just feels right". It's the exact same BS that apple pulled "It just works", "It's magical". Same with your reliability argument, and lens selection argument.

It's crazy that you think those made up BS completely irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the images you make are more important that what the camera is actually capable of doing. The level of delusion from Canon users is completely insane.
What you say is BS is 100% reality for me. See my comment above.
Exactly, it's reality for only YOU precisely because it's not actually demonstrably real, as in it's complete BS. All your posts do is prove my point. Why is it the only people who make this crap up are DSLR users, and almost entirely of the Canon variety? Well I'll tell you why, because Canon's sensors are still garbage and they made this crap up as soon as Sony's dynamic range shot way past theirs in order to convince their users that Sony is bad. You've been convinced to turn against your own best interests and it's painful to watch.
 
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Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
I hate to break it to you, but those are just BS marketing points promoted by DSLR companies when Sony released it's A7 line of cameras. "Class leader on ergonomics and user experience" is absolutely not even a real thing, it is ONLY something people say as an argument against Sony cameras. It is complete a 100% BS viral marketing talking point. If anyone is ever pressed to prove those statements it ends up being "Well to me...", "It just works...", "It's just feels right". It's the exact same BS that apple pulled "It just works", "It's magical". Same with your reliability argument, and lens selection argument.

It's crazy that you think those made up BS completely irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the images you make are more important that what the camera is actually capable of doing. The level of delusion from Canon users is completely insane.
What you say is BS is 100% reality for me. See my comment above.
Exactly, it's reality for only YOU precisely because it's not actually demonstrably real, as in it's complete BS. All your posts do is prove my point. Why is it the only people who make this crap up are DSLR users, and almost entirely of the Canon variety? Well I'll tell you why, because Canon's sensors are still garbage and they made this crap up as soon as Sony's dynamic range shot way past theirs in order to convince their users that Sony is bad. You've been convinced to turn against your own best interests and it's painful to watch.
It's 100% reality for me every time I work, in ease of use, speed of operation, in various refinements and details that I can see and feel. To explain it would require a good deal of time, discussing various work scenarios. I don't have time for it, and you wouldn't accept it anyway. But I've worked with many cameras, and I know which one make my work easier and which ones make my work harder.

As for sensors being "garbage", you are entitled to your opinion. Canon sensors give me fantastic results week after week, year after year. As they do for many other professionals, so at the peak of the photography profession.
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras.
Not anymore
When is the last time Canon released a class leader?
I think that all depends on how you define "class leader"
Yes, this is a key. Canon is a class leader on ergonomics and user experience. Same with this EOS R. Using it will be a better experience than most other mirrorless out there. Same with reliability. Same with service. Same with lens selection.

Too often we let others define the field for the debate. Reviewers often focus on specs rather than those items listed above, which matter to real consumers.

I've been out car shopping recently and I can tell you that often the better brands don't always have the latest bells and whistles, as they take more time to get it right. They also have the fundamentals in their favor, of reliability, safety, and basic car performance.
I hate to break it to you, but those are just BS marketing points promoted by DSLR companies when Sony released it's A7 line of cameras. "Class leader on ergonomics and user experience" is absolutely not even a real thing, it is ONLY something people say as an argument against Sony cameras. It is complete a 100% BS viral marketing talking point. If anyone is ever pressed to prove those statements it ends up being "Well to me...", "It just works...", "It's just feels right". It's the exact same BS that apple pulled "It just works", "It's magical". Same with your reliability argument, and lens selection argument.

It's crazy that you think those made up BS completely irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the images you make are more important that what the camera is actually capable of doing. The level of delusion from Canon users is completely insane.
What you say is BS is 100% reality for me. See my comment above.
Exactly, it's reality for only YOU precisely because it's not actually demonstrably real, as in it's complete BS. All your posts do is prove my point. Why is it the only people who make this crap up are DSLR users, and almost entirely of the Canon variety? Well I'll tell you why, because Canon's sensors are still garbage and they made this crap up as soon as Sony's dynamic range shot way past theirs in order to convince their users that Sony is bad. You've been convinced to turn against your own best interests and it's painful to watch.
It's 100% reality for me every time I work, in ease of use, speed of operation, in various refinements and details that I can see and feel. To explain it would require a good deal of time, discussing various work scenarios. I don't have time for it, and you wouldn't accept it anyway. But I've worked with many cameras, and I know which one make my work easier and which ones make my work harder.

As for sensors being "garbage", you are entitled to your opinion. Canon sensors give me fantastic results week after week, year after year. As they do for many other professionals, so at the peak of the photography profession.
Yes, refinements you can see and feel, but that you just can't demonstrate, prove or explain. I get it. We all get it. Delusional is usually the term used for that.
 
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Yes, refinements you can see and feel, but that you just can't demonstrate, prove or explain. I get it. We all get it. Delusional is usually the term used for that.
There is no need to be so rude, as you are being here, and as you were in several earlier posts. These matters can be discussed without calling people that have a different point of view to yours delusional.
 
Yes, refinements you can see and feel, but that you just can't demonstrate, prove or explain. I get it. We all get it. Delusional is usually the term used for that.
There is no need to be so rude, as you are being here, and as you were in several earlier posts. These matters can be discussed without calling people that have a different point of view to yours delusional.
He is welcome to try and explain any point he's made. Maybe you'll reconsider posting next time you plan on adding approximately nothing to the conversation.
 
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