When we are told M43 can't cut it (Link)

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The reality is that even the most pedestrian cameras of today would have melted everyone's brain 10 years ago. We live in an amazing time with fantastic technology at our fingertips to ply our craft and art. It does not matter what technology we use, what matters is that we use it to crate art. If your art needs different technology, go for it. If not, don't sweat it. Now go take some wonderful photos!
 
The reality is that even the most pedestrian cameras of today would have melted everyone's brain 10 years ago. We live in an amazing time with fantastic technology at our fingertips to ply our craft and art. It does not matter what technology we use, what matters is that we use it to crate art. If your art needs different technology, go for it. If not, don't sweat it. Now go take some wonderful photos!
my newest camera is a 2012 model, my main sporty camera is a 12 year old model, i use them regularly with different amounts of success.....my brain however is not melted in anyway.....well apart from the odd beer.
 
Of course the exact same can be said for why people are spending so much for a mft body and lenses when a digicam would do the trick just as well, especially since portability is such a high priority over image quaility.
Indeed. Other than the the point that image quality can be just as good with a digicam as with m4/3 or FF if you don’t need to go outside of the range they have in common - so picking the most suitable camera and sensor is far from just being ‘bigger is better’.
That's the ironic thing. I have much more often heard people claiming that someone else said that bigger is better than I've actually heard anyone actually say that bigger was better.

Case in point. Great Bustard has taken a bad rap forever for supposedly perpetuating just such a claim simply for explaining the reality of a certain set of easily substantiated facts, in spite of almost constantly acknowledging that mft is probably overkill for most photographers. Meanwhile, one of those who have been the most vocal and persistent in ridiculing GB's assertions in spite of all evidence to the contrary acknowledges that in some ways bigger is better, while all while continuing to deny that it has anything to do with anything equivalence related.

Go figure.

Robert
I think you are out of line here.
I respect your opinion but I don't share it.
Seems like the discussion was a simple back and forth with quite a bit of agreement and no significant claims of this or that.
Seems like, at least if that opening shot about needing "an antidote to the exasperating technicisms that often obsessively dog this forum" went completely unnoticed. Some people actually aren't exasperated by technological advances and their discussion. What exasperates many of them is having their enjoyment of such ruined by people who apparently feel the need to enter such threads just to let people who enjoy said threads know how how exasperating they are.

For the record, I really haven't met anyone who actually thinks that technological advancements in cameras are a substitute for developing one's photography skills. Most every one I know realizes that the two work hand in hand.
Then you felt you had to make a veiled personal attack unrelated to this thread.
What makes what I said an attack? Is it the truth of what I said or the irony? What makes it personal? Recounting what is openly said and done on a public forum hardly seems personal or an attack to me.
Oh come on. You know very well that you intentionally made a veiled personal attack in this sentence: "Meanwhile, one of those who have been the most vocal and persistent in ridiculing GB's assertions in spite of all evidence to the contrary acknowledges that in some ways bigger is better, while all while continuing to deny that it has anything to do with anything equivalence related." What word in my sentence did you not know the meaning of, 'veiled', 'personal', or 'attack'? It wasn't cool.
You're absolutely right. A personal attack is not a personal attack when the attack is taking place. When people who find enjoyment in both photography and photographic technology choose to discuss the latter at their discretion, only to be bombarded with taunts of practicing pseudo science, it's not a personal attack. When whomever has done so is invited to actively participate in the conversation by giving a logical explanation of why they hold such a position, only to repeat their unsubstantiated claims, it's not a personal attack. When they then resort to unveiled ad hominems, it's STILL not a personal attack.

Apparently only the description of what has repeatedly taken place is considered a personal attack. Pointing out the fact that the exasperation created in technical threads, is so often caused by the one who is complaining about it, constitutes a personal attack.

Well I'll be sure to point it out to you next time the actual attack happens so perhaps you can see what an actual attack and a blatant double standard, vs. an eyewitness account of such an event, really looks like.

Robert
 
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I've seen some amazing MFT pics of high ISO and low light milky way photography on the mu43 forums. Seems the new flagship MFT cameras are as good in image quality as a Crop or FF camera in the most extreme lighting conditions.

There may have been a time that MFT could not do 12800 ISO with excellent results. OR a time when MFT couldn't do night sky photography with outcomes that look like FF cameras. But in this modern day, there is really not much difference. As they all print huge despite the BS marketing theology that say MFT can't print large.


But, I guess it all has to do with the photographers skills in exposure and editing. Great photographers can shoot any format and get amazing photos.
 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
No. Pixel-peeping is a a term used by some people who seem to be offended by the idea that someone else might like capturing the fine details of an aircraft that they may never have the privilege of seeing fly again in their lifetime.

I guess those who like bif photos are fine with capturing the close approximation of a bird in flight. No worries about feather detail or the such. They can always explain that the small dot in the upper left corner of the photo is actually an African swallow, not a European variety.

Robert
 
You have a different understanding of 'understanding' to me, then. I think it is possible both to be talented without understanding, and to understand without being talented. I think this is quite evident in many fields, where wonderful practitioners prove to be quite incapable of passing on their skills to others, and also where quite moderate practitioners turn out to be extremely good coaches.
Most famous photographers don't know details of the technology in photography, many doesn't even know all their gear capabilities and possibilities.

They have gathered their experience other means, they have a vision of the work that they want to do and they don't care about anything else.

There are many critically claimed photographers who has no idea about exposure or denoising etc. They just work with the cameras they have.

Some doesn't even know does their cameras have a pop-up flash, or how to get it open.
They don't know all the lenses there are, they just know they want wider or narrower view.
They work with basic rules of thumbs as what shutter speed for action or when flash is in use.

And they don't need to, when they get what they want and like, they are happy.
Claims about what ought to be based on statements about what is are a fallacy.

Gifted professionals are capable of doing things based on intuition, experience, and support from "back office". Mere mortals need all the help we can get.

Here is an example of the input gifted professionals get from "back office":

https://petapixel.com/2013/09/12/marked-photographs-show-iconic-prints-edited-darkroom
It is said that insecurity is hidden behind the scientific explanations.
Insecurity is more commonly found behind denial.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
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But, I guess it all has to do with the photographers skills in exposure and editing. Great photographers can shoot any format and get amazing photos.
That's always true, but two different camera with such huge different in sensor size in the hands of the same skilled photographer, the different in the result still very obvious. we have a lot of people in the local astro group own multiple format cameras from 1in to M4/3 to APS C to FF and few guys has medium format too, everyone ended up carry their biggest format gears even we normally have to hike miles in the woods. high ISO is exactly the what separates the M4/3 apart from the rest of the format.
 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
of course details are important.....why use lenses that are "sharp" otherwise?
We had a prime example just recently. The winner of a challenge, and a pixel-peeper who noticed (and regretted) a lack of some fine details that were supposed to be there.

 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
of course details are important.....why use lenses that are "sharp" otherwise?
We had a prime example just recently. The winner of a challenge, and a pixel-peeper who noticed (and regretted) a lack of some fine details that were supposed to be there.

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1085221&View=Results&Rows=4
why does anyone bother with expensive "sharp" lenses.......detail is so overrated
 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
of course details are important.....why use lenses that are "sharp" otherwise?
We had a prime example just recently. The winner of a challenge, and a pixel-peeper who noticed (and regretted) a lack of some fine details that were supposed to be there.

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1085221&View=Results&Rows=4
I have to say that in this particular instance, some of the details are actually obscured by things outside of any photographer's control, no matter what camera/lens they are using and what their skill level is.

The air is doing all sorts of magic, or the aircraft is doing all sorts of magic by heating the air.

That does not diminish a wish for less brutal NR.
 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
of course details are important.....why use lenses that are "sharp" otherwise?
We had a prime example just recently. The winner of a challenge, and a pixel-peeper who noticed (and regretted) a lack of some fine details that were supposed to be there.

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1085221&View=Results&Rows=4
why does anyone bother with expensive "sharp" lenses.......detail is so overrated
Seems a shame to waste money on IS bodies and lenses when a little camera shake never hurt anything. As long as you can tell what the subject in question is supposed to be...

Robert
 
I have a copy of the whole "conversation".

Publishing it is against forum rules and would get me banned (you wish ... ).

It does not support your view of what occurred.
 
Of course the exact same can be said for why people are spending so much for a mft body and lenses when a digicam would do the trick just as well, especially since portability is such a high priority over image quaility.
Indeed. Other than the the point that image quality can be just as good with a digicam as with m4/3 or FF if you don’t need to go outside of the range they have in common - so picking the most suitable camera and sensor is far from just being ‘bigger is better’.
That's the ironic thing. I have much more often heard people claiming that someone else said that bigger is better than I've actually heard anyone actually say that bigger was better.

Case in point. Great Bustard has taken a bad rap forever for supposedly perpetuating just such a claim simply for explaining the reality of a certain set of easily substantiated facts, in spite of almost constantly acknowledging that mft is probably overkill for most photographers. Meanwhile, one of those who have been the most vocal and persistent in ridiculing GB's assertions in spite of all evidence to the contrary acknowledges that in some ways bigger is better, while all while continuing to deny that it has anything to do with anything equivalence related.

Go figure.

Robert
I think you are out of line here.
I respect your opinion but I don't share it.
Seems like the discussion was a simple back and forth with quite a bit of agreement and no significant claims of this or that.
Seems like, at least if that opening shot about needing "an antidote to the exasperating technicisms that often obsessively dog this forum" went completely unnoticed. Some people actually aren't exasperated by technological advances and their discussion. What exasperates many of them is having their enjoyment of such ruined by people who apparently feel the need to enter such threads just to let people who enjoy said threads know how how exasperating they are.

For the record, I really haven't met anyone who actually thinks that technological advancements in cameras are a substitute for developing one's photography skills. Most every one I know realizes that the two work hand in hand.
Then you felt you had to make a veiled personal attack unrelated to this thread.
What makes what I said an attack? Is it the truth of what I said or the irony? What makes it personal? Recounting what is openly said and done on a public forum hardly seems personal or an attack to me.
Oh come on. You know very well that you intentionally made a veiled personal attack in this sentence: "Meanwhile, one of those who have been the most vocal and persistent in ridiculing GB's assertions in spite of all evidence to the contrary acknowledges that in some ways bigger is better, while all while continuing to deny that it has anything to do with anything equivalence related." What word in my sentence did you not know the meaning of, 'veiled', 'personal', or 'attack'? It wasn't cool.
You're absolutely right. A personal attack is not a personal attack when the attack is taking place. When people who find enjoyment in both photography and photographic technology choose to discuss the latter at their discretion, only to be bombarded with taunts of practicing pseudo science, it's not a personal attack. When whomever has done so is invited to actively participate in the conversation by giving a logical explanation of why they hold such a position, only to repeat their unsubstantiated claims, it's not a personal attack. When they then resort to unveiled ad hominems, it's STILL not a personal attack.

Apparently only the description of what has repeatedly taken place is considered a personal attack. Pointing out the fact that the exasperation created in technical threads, is so often caused by the one who is complaining about it, constitutes a personal attack.

Well I'll be sure to point it out to you next time the actual attack happens so perhaps you can see what an actual attack and a blatant double standard, vs. an eyewitness account of such an event, really looks like.
I've seen this all before on different threads, it did not need to be injected into this one.
 
This current challenge winner is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. It's a fantastic photo. But the lack of fine details in the plane really do detract from the photo for me --
That is basically a definition of a pixel-peeper. The one that sees a great photos and starts to examine it at 100% magnification.
Have you talked to a certain type of airshow photographer who goes to airshows chasing details? This sort of criterion exists in real terms for real people.
Yes, it's called pixel-peeping. A well-known "criterion" for a good airshow photo.
of course details are important.....why use lenses that are "sharp" otherwise?
We had a prime example just recently. The winner of a challenge, and a pixel-peeper who noticed (and regretted) a lack of some fine details that were supposed to be there.

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1085221&View=Results&Rows=4
why does anyone bother with expensive "sharp" lenses.......detail is so overrated
And the logical fallacy you are making is called false dilemma. Because there are not either pixel-peeping sharp or no details at all.
 
But, I guess it all has to do with the photographers skills in exposure and editing. Great photographers can shoot any format and get amazing photos.
That's always true, but two different camera with such huge different in sensor size in the hands of the same skilled photographer, the different in the result still very obvious. we have a lot of people in the local astro group own multiple format cameras from 1in to M4/3 to APS C to FF and few guys has medium format too, everyone ended up carry their biggest format gears even we normally have to hike miles in the woods. high ISO is exactly the what separates the M4/3 apart from the rest of the format.
That is true in general. But the difference between the best MFT cameras and the best crop APSC cameras are so close, that skilled photographers can produce as good if not better quality images than the APSC with MFT. Factor in a 5 to 7 year older FF or crop or APSC, and the latest flagship MFT will win in high ISO.
 
But, I guess it all has to do with the photographers skills in exposure and editing. Great photographers can shoot any format and get amazing photos.
That's always true, but two different camera with such huge different in sensor size in the hands of the same skilled photographer, the different in the result still very obvious. we have a lot of people in the local astro group own multiple format cameras from 1in to M4/3 to APS C to FF and few guys has medium format too, everyone ended up carry their biggest format gears even we normally have to hike miles in the woods. high ISO is exactly the what separates the M4/3 apart from the rest of the format.
That is true in general. But the difference between the best MFT cameras and the best crop APSC cameras are so close, that skilled photographers can produce as good if not better quality images than the APSC with MFT. Factor in a 5 to 7 year older FF or crop or APSC, and the latest flagship MFT will win in high ISO.
OK, that's fine, if you want compare stuffs from different generation technologies. yeah, my 2018 4 cylinder car has better power out put than my 1990 V6, so there is no difference between 4 cylinder and V6 power.
 

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