Where is the best way to store all the photos....

Michael Kral

Member
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Location
Vienna, AT
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
 
Hi all,

is there any mention?
Michael
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
--
Best regards, Michael
 
Hi Michael,

CD-R's are cheap and easy and no compatability problems. Buy a good make and check them from time to time. Make at least two copies...

Having said that, I don't know the real answer but it's what I've done with mine . Ask me in 20 years time...

Regards, David
 
Hi Michael,

CD-R's are cheap and easy and no compatability problems. Buy a good
make and check them from time to time. Make at least two copies...
There are some CD-R's that are sold as "archival" and more expensive as well. May be worth investing. It is indeed wise to make two copies. They would be best stored in different places.

Note that if your 18.000 photos are on film, I am not sure it is worth scanning them for archiving purpose only.
 
I did a little internet research a while back. CDs supposedly last 5 to 10 years. I've heard people recommend the gold CDs.

Magnetic tape, especially special mag tape for archiving, is supposed to be much better. For that one has to buy a tape drive (like DAT). I may someday, but for now I use CDs, and I will check them every few years, and make duplicates.
 
Read this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/32593.html

Right now your best bet is to get a removable hard drive and store them on it. (hard drives are the only media known to last an exteneded period of time without degradation) I use wiebtech's Firewire DriveDock. Its a portable firewire drive interface, just buy a standard ATA drive from the store, and hook it up. great for having multiple hard drives for archiving. (they also make a bus powered drivedock)
http://www.wiebetech.com/index2.html
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
--
Some people say I have multiple personalities, but WE don't belive
them!
 
A test over here showed that many home-burned CD's lost their data after...6months. You think that's only for low-quality brands but no, my expensive TDK lost a huge presentation with over 90 photo's after.....3months. Then you're really happy you still have the negs.

There is currently NO (affordable) digital media that can guarentee data sequerity for more than a few years, unless you use professional equipment, like the music CD makers use. But at least 1000copies as back is a bit too much I guess ;-)
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
 
Your statement that "hard drives are the only media known to last an exteneded period of time without degradation" is flat wrong. Hard drive degrade like EVERY medium, and they have moving parts which make them even more prone to failure. Why do you think RAID is so popular among serious photographers?

Certified archival CD-R discs such as those from Mitsui guarantee their data integrity for over 100 years (300 years for their gold discs). No HD can compete with that.

If you choose HD as your primary backup medium, make sure you keep several copies. Sooner or later a drive will fail.
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
--
Some people say I have multiple personalities, but WE don't belive
them!
 
reinierv wrote:
(...)
There is currently NO (affordable) digital media that can guarentee
data sequerity for more than a few years, unless you use
professional equipment, like the music CD makers use.
Just plain wrong. Mitsui CD-R discs ( http://www.mitsuicdr.com/ ) are certified for 100 years (300 years for their gold discs). That means their actual data integrity is rated for that long, not just a guarantee that Mitsui will replace the CD if it fails (which of course is worthless because the data cannot be replaced).

Mitsui discs are available online and do not cost much more than cheap, non-archival discs.

Kodak also used to make 100-year media, but I don't think they do any longer. I'm sure a web search will turn up other manufacturers.
 
Personally I prefer using DVD-RAM disks, they hold a lot of information and are known to be a stable format for holding data...
 
Make sure you buy certified, archival media.

It is true that your garden variety CD-R blank from Circuit City may not last very long. Cheap discs can warp and delaminate -- the data layer can actually flake off after a short time. Of course some makers "guarantee" their discs for a lifetime, which just means they'll sent you another $0.30 CD when yours fails. That doesn't really help you because they can't replace the lost data.

That's why it's important to buy archival certified media that has been tested to ensure its data integrity over time. One very highly recommended manufacturer of such media is Mitsui: http://www.mitsuicdr.com/ .

Their CD-R blanks are certified for 100-300 years (depending on the particular line) and don't cost much more than regular CDs. They can be stored under normal conditions -- some manufacturers only guarantee their CDs when stored in dark, low-humidity environments. You can buy them online.

As for DVD longevity, I don't know. Perhaps certified DVD media is available, but I haven't found it yet. I'm sticking to Mitsui CD-R for the time being.
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
 
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
As others have suggested, use top quality CDs, make multiple copies and store sets of copies in different physical locations. People do loose their pictures to fire, theft, etc. Digital gives you a clear advantage here.

And negatives/transparencies do go bad. One can't always control the storage conditions. I've lost a large percentage of my transparencies over the last 25 years.

I also have a large (120 gig) external hard drive that contains my images. I keep reduced size versions on my internal hard drive. If I want to retrieve a full-size file for editing I don't have to go sorting through CDs.

--
bob
Latest offering - 'Two Hours in Delhi'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.
 
And do they require special writing equipment because there are two variables here. A bad CD writer will not make a lasting burn, no matter the quality of the disc. A good burner will make a bad CD last longer
It is true that your garden variety CD-R blank from Circuit City
may not last very long. Cheap discs can warp and delaminate -- the
data layer can actually flake off after a short time. Of course
some makers "guarantee" their discs for a lifetime, which just
means they'll sent you another $0.30 CD when yours fails. That
doesn't really help you because they can't replace the lost data.

That's why it's important to buy archival certified media that has
been tested to ensure its data integrity over time. One very highly
recommended manufacturer of such media is Mitsui:
http://www.mitsuicdr.com/ .

Their CD-R blanks are certified for 100-300 years (depending on the
particular line) and don't cost much more than regular CDs. They
can be stored under normal conditions -- some manufacturers only
guarantee their CDs when stored in dark, low-humidity environments.
You can buy them online.

As for DVD longevity, I don't know. Perhaps certified DVD media is
available, but I haven't found it yet. I'm sticking to Mitsui CD-R
for the time being.
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
 
Mitsui CD-R blanks don't require any special writing equipment beyond a decent consumer-grade burner.

Of courser there are lots of unknowns when burning CDs. Even a reputed high-quality CD writer can be slightly out of spec and burn questionable discs (i.e., CDs that seem fine at first but may degrade faster than expected). And I haven't even mentioned software drivers, the most likely component to have a bug.

The best you can do is to start with the best media and writer available. Also burn a checksum (I use MD5) so you can verify the data integrity later. It also doesn't hurt to have another backup method in your workflow (I use a mixture of internal and external hard drives, though I don't consider the drives "archival" because they can -- and will -- fail).
It is true that your garden variety CD-R blank from Circuit City
may not last very long. Cheap discs can warp and delaminate -- the
data layer can actually flake off after a short time. Of course
some makers "guarantee" their discs for a lifetime, which just
means they'll sent you another $0.30 CD when yours fails. That
doesn't really help you because they can't replace the lost data.

That's why it's important to buy archival certified media that has
been tested to ensure its data integrity over time. One very highly
recommended manufacturer of such media is Mitsui:
http://www.mitsuicdr.com/ .

Their CD-R blanks are certified for 100-300 years (depending on the
particular line) and don't cost much more than regular CDs. They
can be stored under normal conditions -- some manufacturers only
guarantee their CDs when stored in dark, low-humidity environments.
You can buy them online.

As for DVD longevity, I don't know. Perhaps certified DVD media is
available, but I haven't found it yet. I'm sticking to Mitsui CD-R
for the time being.
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
--
Best regards, Michael
Austria/Vienna
 
for a long time 10-30 or more years.
CDR or DVD R+- or others?

How long is the lifetime from those?

I want to store all my over 18.000 photos for many years, more
than 10....

What are you meaning to this?
As others have suggested, use top quality CDs, make multiple copies
and store sets of copies in different physical locations. People
do loose their pictures to fire, theft, etc. Digital gives you a
clear advantage here.
And use different CD manufacturers. There is always the possibility that a given batch of CDs may have problems, and even if the manufacturer is still around, the most you will recover is the cost of a CD-R (what about $0.10 in todays market).
And negatives/transparencies do go bad. One can't always control
the storage conditions. I've lost a large percentage of my
transparencies over the last 25 years.

I also have a large (120 gig) external hard drive that contains my
images. I keep reduced size versions on my internal hard drive.
If I want to retrieve a full-size file for editing I don't have to
go sorting through CDs.
You also have to plan on media obsolessence, and budget for copying the files every 5 years or so as new media comes out. How many people still have 8" floppy drives on their computer or 8 track tape deck players in their cars?

Even in 5 years time you may have to convert from JPG format to whatever new format is coming out. Even more important is conversion of propitary file formats like RAW, photoshop working files, etc. into standard format, since you don't know if a new tool will support the old format. For example, I think Microsoft silently dropped support for old versions of Word in the latest office.

Another question is whether anybody is going to want to look through 18,000 pictures in 20-30 years time. Some pictures yes, but we all know how glazed people get when sitting through a night of looking at vacation pictures. It is probably most useful to keep a top 100 (or even 1,000) set of pictures, and weed out the clunkers as your taste (& hopefully skill) changes.
 
That's why it's important to buy archival certified media that has
been tested to ensure its data integrity over time. One very highly
recommended manufacturer of such media is Mitsui:
http://www.mitsuicdr.com/ .
On the other hand, whether the current CD/DVD format will be with us for 100 years is a different question. I think in 20 years (probably much sooner, say 5-10 years), kids will look at people who recall CDs with the same scorn as kids do now for people with vinyl records. Certainly in terms of music formats, I've seen 8 track, cassettes, 78 RPM records, 45 RPM records, 33 RPM LPs, CD, DVD, blue lasar DVD, DAT, etc. In terms of tape storage, I've used 800/1600/6250 DPI reel-to-real, DAT DDS 1/2/3, and I currently use AIT tapes, and there are a couple of other formats I haven't used. In terms of disk connections, I've seen 5 versions of SCSI, a couple of IDE versions, USB 1.1, USB 2.0, firewire, etc. Change occurs, and you can either plan for the change, or get wacked over the head when it comes.

I recall for a lawsuit, MIT needed to recover data off of the backup tapes from its ITS computer systems (1970's if memory serves), and it took awhile to even find a compatible tape drive, and they only had one shot to recover the data, since the bits were literally falling off of the tape. I have some DDS-3 tapes from 2 years ago, that I can't easily recover, since my DDS tape drive stopped working.
 
I did a little internet research a while back. CDs supposedly last
5 to 10 years. I've heard people recommend the gold CDs.

Magnetic tape, especially special mag tape for archiving, is
supposed to be much better. For that one has to buy a tape drive
(like DAT). I may someday, but for now I use CDs, and I will check
them every few years, and make duplicates.
It depends on the storage conditions and the tape. Also for daily backups, I found HP DAT drives lasted about 9 months before they wore out (doing 5 hours of dump and verify every night). If you only use the tape weekly or monthly it will prolong the life. DLT's are supposed to be more reliable (and expensive).
 
The Dutch magazine article has been circulating and I have seen no good translations, but the extracts are certainly incorrect. I have El-Cheapo brand CDRs that have been in my car and boat CD players for years now in the hot Florida sun and they still work fine. My first burner was bought 7 years ago and even the cyanine dye based CDs still work fine that I recorded back then. I have not had one fail that worked when I recorded it and I have recorded hundreds of CDs.

I archive my photos on Kodak Gold Ultuma CDs. I got a couple hundred from Kodak when they stopped making CDR. If I didn’t have the Kodaks I would archive to Verbatim Data Life CDs with Azo dye or Mitsui Golds with Phthalocyanine dye instead of the common Cyanine, which I use for audio etc.

Since burners are so cheap I just bought a couple of 52X burners and burn two of everything I intend for archive. I will check from time to time that all is well and eventually transfer them to a better medium when it becomes available. One important thing to do is check that your error rate is low between your burner and chosen media. All burners don’t like all media, and aging could exacerbate an already bad error problem. Jus because you can read it doesn’t mean the errors are too high.

The last place I would chose for archive would be a removable hard drive. One drop and you are in for some expensive recovery. Even if you don’t drop them a hard drive can fail. And I have seen no reliable data to conclude that the magnetic surface of a hard disk has superior lasting qualities to solid state groves burned in archival quality CDR.
 
Whilst I'm not disputing that the Matsui CD's are high-quality, their website does NOT appear to state that data integrity is warranted for 100 years. here's what they say, taken straight from their website -
Using data from tests like these, industry standard guidelines predict that > MAM Gold CD-R will last greater than 100 years! (In fact, if you extend > the chart [lower right], the data predicts a lifetime of up to 300 years > before failing at the Orange Book limit of 220 CPS)
There's a BIG difference bewteen predictions and fact!

--
Gordon Tarling
 
Whilst I'm not disputing that the Matsui CD's are high-quality,
their website does NOT appear to state that data integrity is
warranted for 100 years. here's what they say, taken straight from
their website -

Using data from tests like these, industry standard guidelines predict
that MAM Gold CD-R will last greater than 100 years! (In fact, if you
extend the chart [lower right], the data predicts a lifetime of up to
300 years before failing at the Orange Book limit of 220 CPS)

There's a BIG difference bewteen predictions and fact!
The only way to have factual longevity data is to actually wait centuries and see if the CDs hold up. Feel free to get started on those tests, and let us know how they turn out.

In the meantime I will trust companies (like Mitsui) that design their media for longevity and base their lifetime predictions on measured laboratory data.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top