Canon: That's how you do a mirrorless launch

There are adapters and then there are adapters. Adapters between different brands often rely on reverse engineering and there's no guarantee of future compatibility. I have nothing against reverse engineering, but it does come with risks, including one side deliberately breaking it.
If Canon changes the EF-mount protocol then they need to issue firmware upgrades to every EF-mount camera that has been made since 1987. Doesn't sound reasonable. Older bodys might not even be possible to upgrade without being sent in. Sound like a support nightmare.
No need to break compatibility with EF lenses. It's just enough that they break compatibility with RF. One way to do it completely transparently is to allow encryption and leave it disabled for the time being.
But we will never adapt RF lenses on FE. It isn't physically possible. Nikon Z might be able to take them physically since they have 4 mm distance to produce a tube adapter and they have about the same mount diameter, so there it might work, but not on FE.

Same with the Z lenses, will not be adaptable on FE physically.

So for FE, it is only the Canon EF lenses (and other existing lens brands of course) in play and those they will most likely not change the protocol on.
If Canon or Nikon gain market slowly and ramp up as they expect, everything is fine. But as soon as there is risk that third party RF lens makers are having a nice living at their expense, they release firmware upgrades (and later new cameras) that are digitally signed and cannot be downgraded from, and have a programmed encryption enable kill switch. At that moment, all communication (or at least the initial handshake) between the body and RF lens (or RF-EF adapter) is encrypted, and your third party RF lenses become expensive paperweights. And this forces those third party makers to license RF at any cost, or accept returns from dissatisfied users.
Yes, true, if they did that. But that is still a firmware upgrade nightmare since people needs to update all their stuff at the same time. The support department will get a call or two thousands, maybe even more.
But if they did that then the 3d party makers of RF and Z lenses would have bricks, yes.

But we would still adapt the EF lenses just fine on FE, so why worry?
You know what's funniest about this? It has all the needed features at once. It's legal, it's trivial, it's cheap, it's innocuous and it can be sold as being for a good cause (for instance to prevent stolen lenses from working).
How do you know when a lens has been stolen and how do you distribute that info to all other bodys so they don't accept that lens? Or do you want to have a password or fingerprint reader on every lens so it needs to be unlocked when you mount it? Don't you think mirrorless cameras have slow enough starting times as they have already? :-)
Maybe an Iris scanner in the EVF also? :-)
That's why not having an open mount today (as opposed to 1980s) is something to be extremely wary of.
Yes, open standards are always preferable than proprietary ones for the users.
Also the reverse engineering people are fairly good at figuring things out so it wouldn't probably take long before they know the change made, and the adapters have firmware upgradability and the users of those are used to upgrade the adapters as well, since the development pace is high.
Encryption with digital signatures using private key infrastructure is virtually impossible to break.
Yes, and it also slows down their own communication by using CPU power to chew the encryption. And even if the body probably has CPU power enough, does the lenses? And it will drain battery quicker, like the CIPA ratings isn't bad enough for the R (and Z).
Adapters involving optical elements also introduce more glass into the light path, so more loss.
Those adapters are basically only used on crop sensors to boost light by using more of the otherwise lost image circle and when the flange to sensor distance is longer on the body it will be adapted to. So doesn't apply to mirrorless FF bodys with their short flange to sensor distance, adapters for those are all glass less inside.
Moreover, their advantages completely outweigh any potential losses. A well made focal reducer will boost light by a stop and increase resolution (even if you lose, say, 10% of total resolution, you still gain 31% (41-10) with a 0.7x focal reducer).
Yes, speed boosters are good on crop sensor bodys. But has no meaning for FF unless you start to adapt medium format lenses made for larger image circles, then it would be meaningful again as the usecase is the same (lens made for larger sensor adapted to cropped sensor).
That's not the case here. All three parts of the system (lens, adapter, and body) are under Canon's direct control, and the adapter itself is basically an extension tube (perhaps with protocol conversion that again is under Canon's control).
The Canon R bodys seems to be double protocol knowledgeable so they speak EF and RF protocol and switches between them depending on what lens it recognizes. So the adapters seems to just be electrically passing the signal through.
We don't know that for sure. RF protocol is significantly faster and relatively inexpensive electronics can do EF translation on the fly. That's going to be necessary on the adapter with the control ring.
You are right that we don't know if it is pass through or not, I found that explanation in an article somewhere on the net and I am old enough not to trust everything I read on the net, but it sounded reasonable at least I thought. Since it is better to use the logic circuitry (the computer so to speak) in the body that already must be there for other things and a have the adapters totally logic free and only have a wiring that connects the pins on each mount side with the other side.

The RF mount has more pins, so it can be so simple that they just added on extra communication on the side, like plugging in two Ethernet ports on your NAS.

It can also be that the adjustable ring is connected on the extra pin contacts to the body and talks to it and that the body then sends the signal to the lens on the usual EF protocol on those pins. Pure speculation from my side. But if one can choose the function on that ring and I understand it like that, it must communicate with the body. In time someone will figure it out how it really works.
That is well done by Canon. The RF protocol is faster with a higher clock frequency. One must remember that EF was made in 1987 so things have happened since then.
New EF lenses can be expected to allow dual mode, though. If it detects it's on a fairly recent body, it will switch to RF protocol, and fall back to EF as needed. This may include future DSLRs, and in fact may include current DSLRs and lenses, it might have been quietly introduced already.
We should have spotted the extra pins then.

But you are right that Canon maybe could extend the new DSLR bodys with more pins if it isn't something physically that hinders that against the EF-mount and they could make future EF lenses dual knowledge and also have the extra pins in their mounts. But at least I have a hard time to see Canon going through with all that since it will require a lot of testing with all old bodys from 1987 and on so nothing accidentally stops to work physically and/or on a signal level. I can't see it being worth the work or the risk.
I'm not sure how Sony has implemented the A-mount protocol in the E-mount adapters, like the LA-EA3, meaning if it just passes through or translates.
It translates the commands, the protocol is completely different, although it might work in pass through with some new lenses as the A communication protocol was updated several years ago (A77 with 16-50 was the first release) and virtually all communication with supported lenses is done on one dedicated bidirectional line.
Ok, thanks for the explanation!

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Best regards
/Anders
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42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
 
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Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
You forget one important difference here... Sony users (me included) have been forced to use adapted third party (or mostly Canon) lenses on third party adapters (I’m not even going to mention Sony’s own adapters..). With Canon (and Nikon) you get to use FIRST party adapters with their own lenses. Quite the difference. And one that should enable the adapted lenses to work flawlessly.
 
You forget one important difference here... Sony users (me included) have been forced to use adapted third party (or mostly Canon) lenses on third party adapters (I’m not even going to mention Sony’s own adapters..). With Canon (and Nikon) you get to use FIRST party adapters with their own lenses. Quite the difference. And one that should enable the adapted lenses to work flawlessly.
I am a Sony FE user since 2015. I have not been forced to use any third party lens or adapter at all. I've used native Sony FE AF lenses since day one with the system.

Så det så! :-)
 
Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
With a Canon adapter, it is native glass.
 
Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
With a Canon adapter, it is native glass.
No, it is the same brand on all parts, which takes out one problem source vs using stuff of different brands together, but the EF lenses are not made for mirrorless, so they R not native.

Read this article and you get the picture, skip the first paragraphs which talks about the not same brand problem, after that the article goes into how a lens made for a DSRL AF system is not ideal on a mirrorless AF system: https://www.thephoblographer.com/20...-lenses-on-mirrorless-cameras-is-such-a-pain/

--
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
 
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Kudos to Canon for showing how to make a mirrorless launch. It remains to be seen if their sensors are now up to the task. Certainly, AF is going to be excellent, the only question that remains is whether image quality has caught up to or overtaken Sony.

Obviously, they have an excellent start with full support for all EF lenses with simple adapters, and the choice of three adapters is really great.
(I'd really like to see Sony release a final version of LA-EA, with a focusing motor, but without a mirror that would have additional customizable control buttons, maybe also a similar version for APS-c with a focal reducer.)

One thing I noticed is that they moved away from a power switch operated by right hand, and moved it to the upper left corner (as viewed from the back). Sony was always criticized for that design choice on their DSLRs until moving to a rotary switch around the shutter button, and were praised for that.
Let's see if Canon gets a break.

Added:

Ok, read up more.

Obviously no IBIS, so the 50/1.2 and 28-70/2 are not stabilized. Bummer. A really big one, too, since it's impossible to correct roll with just in-lens IS.

Cropped 4K. I would have thought that with fast readout and dual pixel AF, it would be possible to have this uncropped.

Just 3 fps servo (AF-c). It's just the first generation, but still a bit low.

Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Yeah the , cropped video is just lame. I don't want to have memorize how much the crop area might be each time I shoot video. In my smart phone wether I do photo or video the capture frame is the same. It Should be like this for all cameras
 
Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
With a Canon adapter, it is native glass.
No, it is the same brand on all parts, which takes out one problem source vs using stuff of different brands together, but the EF lenses are not made for mirrorless, so they R not native.

Read this article and you get the picture, skip the first paragraphs which talks about the not same brand problem, after that the article goes into how a lens made for a DSRL AF system is not ideal on a mirrorless AF system: https://www.thephoblographer.com/20...-lenses-on-mirrorless-cameras-is-such-a-pain/
Well, Canon has had live view for many years now (which is essentially mirrorless in terms of how it operates, unless you use the mode where the mirror flips back down to use the phase detect system), and they've certainly been building lenses to operate under those conditions.
 
I think the Sony FF mirrorless system is safe.

At least for now.
Any reason why it should not be safe? Three or more camera makers can peacefully co-exist.
With the shrinking CIPA numbers, even being the third most popular camera brand is going to be walking the line between profitability and bankruptcy. Good R&D requires a lot of revenue.

We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
I could have not said it better than Jurij. However, my statement was more rethorical than anything. What I was thinking was that both Nikon and Canon new ML systems are under Sony's current offerings.

But obviously Sony will have to push the pedal to the metal to keep the advantage. Certainly not an easy task. It took three iterations for Sony to get to the point of maturity where it is now. Canon and Nikon most likely need only a second iteration to offer a mature compelling camera. But of course short of native lenses.
Even if Sony stopped all development right now it would take Canon 5 years to create an equal to the current Sony A9. Everyone like to act like Canon is protecting their other camera lines, when in fact they just aren't even capable of innovating.
 
I think the Sony FF mirrorless system is safe.

At least for now.
Any reason why it should not be safe? Three or more camera makers can peacefully co-exist.
With the shrinking CIPA numbers, even being the third most popular camera brand is going to be walking the line between profitability and bankruptcy. Good R&D requires a lot of revenue.

We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
I could have not said it better than Jurij. However, my statement was more rethorical than anything. What I was thinking was that both Nikon and Canon new ML systems are under Sony's current offerings.

But obviously Sony will have to push the pedal to the metal to keep the advantage. Certainly not an easy task. It took three iterations for Sony to get to the point of maturity where it is now. Canon and Nikon most likely need only a second iteration to offer a mature compelling camera. But of course short of native lenses.
Even if Sony stopped all development right now it would take Canon 5 years to create an equal to the current Sony A9. Everyone like to act like Canon is protecting their other camera lines, when in fact they just aren't even capable of innovating.
B.S. Canon is capable, but they also want to protect their DSLR sales so the EOS R wound up being a stopgap product. If Canon went all-out, they could get pretty close to the a9 today. They might still be behind by 2 years, but 5? Get real. Sony is like 5 years behind Canon's touchscreen UI by the way.
 
I think the Sony FF mirrorless system is safe.

At least for now.
Any reason why it should not be safe? Three or more camera makers can peacefully co-exist.
With the shrinking CIPA numbers, even being the third most popular camera brand is going to be walking the line between profitability and bankruptcy. Good R&D requires a lot of revenue.

We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
I could have not said it better than Jurij. However, my statement was more rethorical than anything. What I was thinking was that both Nikon and Canon new ML systems are under Sony's current offerings.

But obviously Sony will have to push the pedal to the metal to keep the advantage. Certainly not an easy task. It took three iterations for Sony to get to the point of maturity where it is now. Canon and Nikon most likely need only a second iteration to offer a mature compelling camera. But of course short of native lenses.
Even if Sony stopped all development right now it would take Canon 5 years to create an equal to the current Sony A9. Everyone like to act like Canon is protecting their other camera lines, when in fact they just aren't even capable of innovating.
B.S. Canon is capable, but they also want to protect their DSLR sales so the EOS R wound up being a stopgap product. If Canon went all-out, they could get pretty close to the a9 today. They might still be behind by 2 years, but 5? Get real. Sony is like 5 years behind Canon's touchscreen UI by the way.
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
 
Read this article and you get the picture, skip the first paragraphs which talks about the not same brand problem, after that the article goes into how a lens made for a DSRL AF system is not ideal on a mirrorless AF system: https://www.thephoblographer.com/20...-lenses-on-mirrorless-cameras-is-such-a-pain/
I gave it some thought and the guy is like Columbus. Fundamentally wrong, but because of certain serendipity, he's also right.
(Side note: Columbus believed two incorrect notions. One was about Earth's radius and another about size of Asia. He believed the radius of the Earth was one third of what it really is and that Asia's easternmost reaches (Japan) stretched out by additional 5,000 miles, which would make a westward journey possible. Earth's radius was known to a quite accurate degree since the 4th century BC, while size of Asia was debated, with some obvious contradictions to the possible size of Japan. Had there been no America to discover, he and his crews would have perished at sea.)
Back on topic. There are several reasons why he's wrong:

1. It's not how autofocus works. The lens is not told to move the motor by a certain degree. It would be inaccurate and heavily dependent on lens calibration which would have to be impossibly exact.
Furthermore, it would only be true with Canon, since they started off with in-lens motors, while Minolta, Nikon and Pentax decided on in-body motors. If you told the motor to move a certain distance, it would only work with a specific lens model, because another model might have completely different gearing.
Finally, it would make bodies incompatible with new lens motors. USM? Your old bodies are obsolete. Micro USM? Ditto. STM? Yep. And so on.
Instead, the AF module commands the focus motor (whether in-body or in-lens) to move in a certain direction and detects the change in phase, therefore expecting it to land somewhere within focus after finishing the move.

2. Second, take Minolta A mount. Making an adapter for SLR lenses, why would it have to rely on an "SLR-friendly" motor, instead of "camcorder-friendly" one, and relevant mode of operation?

3. Canon's mode of operation doesn't work that way. The camera tells the motor to move in one direction with specific torque, then tells it to stop. Then does small adjustments as needed.

4. AF-c (or AF servo) requires the motor to be able to move constantly and do small adjustments.

--

There is a different reason. Phase detect AF takes advantage of certain phenomena that let the detector know how big is the misfocus and in what direction to move the lens motor. It is then able to make large adjustments in one go, and fine tune towards the end.
The focusing motor is very high torque and can therefore move large distances quickly, but needs to be operated much below its capability when doing fine adjustments, which is why ultrasonic motors were developed and later on stepper motors and linear actuators are used -- to overcome the lack of precision when doing final adjustments. This is why fine adjustments towards the end of a focus action sometimes take as long as the initial large move.

Contrast detection systems, on the other hand, were developed with two constraints:
1. They needed to be able to focus reliably and avoid losing focus, speed was not as important -- picture coming into focus and locking into it is/was much more important.
2. When losing focus, they needed to be able to respond to switching direction without hesitation.

With on-sensor PDAF, a lot of lenses are now friendly with both PDAF-style and CDAF-style autofocus, depending on the specific application. Even with PDAF, you can still limit the focusing speed to avoid causing nausea in your viewers when the lens suddenly jerks between two subjects or slightly over- or undershoots when focusing.

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Added:
One more note. Lenses designed for SLRs will have certain optical phenomena corrected at the cost of others. Fast lenses would have parallax mismatch between the AF sensor and the image sensor because they're at an angle with regards to each other., so they are corrected for it (I'm not an expert in optics, but I recall it has to do with exit pupil size and distance). Mirrorless has no such issues, so it can be designed with more freedom, although I do think it's possible that "AF SLR-friendly" designs required more telecentricity, which is also a desirable trait in mirrorless which has a short registration distance, but I may be mistaken here and I would appreciate being corrected.
 
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What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
 
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
 
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
Yeah, two options. Either they're incompetent or complacent. I don't know which is worse, but one doesn't exclude the other...
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.

[Nikon has the next largest share. The others: Pentax, Fuji, Sigma, Leica, Sony and the rest are fighting for a share of the crumbs that the big two have left for them].
 
If it is not TOO right. Reminds me of actions of Intel. AMD was small bump on the road of Intel money stream. Now AMD has 50% of market easily.
 
What in the WORLD makes you think Canon is capable of delivering, they just choose not to. Stop and think for a moment about how absolutely stupid that sounds. It will be minimum 5 years before Canon figures out how to fabricate memory directly to their sensors meaning that is it literally impossible for them to make a Camera like the A9.
I mean, it would be even worse if it were true.
Yeah, two options. Either they're incompetent or complacent. I don't know which is worse, but one doesn't exclude the other...
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.

[Nikon has the next largest share. The others: Pentax, Fuji, Sigma, Leica, Sony and the rest are fighting for a share of the crumbs that the big two have left for them].
We shouldn't forget that a huge part of this is fixed-lens cameras and entry level cameras + lenses. Concentrating on higher-end gear and therefore striving only for smaller segments of the market can be a profitable business. As Sony is _not_ tackling the full market, citing those full market shares is a bit misleading. If one looks at the decline of the camera sales over the last couple of years, with ILC going down from 14 to less than 7 Million now, a shift in the big three companies is mandatory.

In the segments Sony is trying to get a foothold at, they seem to be quite successful.
 
If it is not TOO right. Reminds me of actions of Intel. AMD was small bump on the road of Intel money stream. Now AMD has 50% of market easily.
Except Canon and Nikon, to the best of my knowledge, did not do illegal market manipulation to prevent others from gaining foothold.

(One thing that made them more financially successful, than Minolta at least, was settling with Honeywell for much less and not having a photocopier business to leech off photography, but neither of these were illegal.)
 
If it is not TOO right. Reminds me of actions of Intel. AMD was small bump on the road of Intel money stream. Now AMD has 50% of market easily.
Except Canon and Nikon, to the best of my knowledge, did not do illegal market manipulation to prevent others from gaining foothold.
Yes. To our knowledge. Just entertaining ideas, not imposing anything on anybody.

The system used for getting Canon printers in our workplace is pretty weird to me.

We have Canon printers in our workplace. All I can say is that I would not buy Canon printer. :-)
 
Canon has over half of the camera/lens business, so they must be doing something right, even if they can't please the contributors to these forums.
I am finding it entertaining that the biggest selling points of the EOS R have absolutely nothing to do with the EOS R. Canon is #1! So what? Their position clearly isn't based on having the best cameras. When is the last time Canon released a class leader? 5D2? 80D?

I'm sure the EOS R is a good camera, but Canon is not getting any conquest sales with it. They are just relying on their existing user base not leaving. Not a very strong business strategy IMO.
 

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