Michael1000
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Nikon should have taken the journalists to Hawaii, instead of grumpy New York City. What's going to put you in a better mood, tropical beaches or a dirty city?
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IMO: Sony is still the champ, for now.
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James Stirling
Forum Pro
Yep they played it better, Hawaii a few drinks and happy reports about an in many ways inferior camera
javiair
Leading Member
Troll? Thats funny, You have posted 21 times in the last 8 hours and most of them in the Cannon Forum. You have added nothing to any conversations but rebuttals and offered nothing of value to respond to.
Bless your heart.
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javiair
Leading Member
Absolutely that we are the winners. I think I mentioned in my original post that competition is good. I think the Nikon Z line and the Canon EOS R line will make their respective customers happy enough to keep them in their corner.
The next 2-3 years are going to be interesting.
Thoughts R Us
Senior Member
First off, I haven't called people names. Secondly I am tired of all of the trolls, mostly from Sony, who are the ones dumping their criticisms of both the Nikon and Canon. it is the trolls who call names, and in general just inject negative and insipid comments.
Second, I do in many cases justify my assertions. But if the Sony trolls can just post negative things about Nikon/Canon without justification, then surely I can about their products. And you have to remember, the Sony trolls are posting in the Nikon/Canon forums. That is what is rude; they can have their fun in their own forums talking trash about other brands all they want.
As for Sony forcing anything from Nikon or Canon, that's laughable. These products have been in development for years and almost certainly would have happened regardless. I do appreciate the competition, though, and it is true that the Sony offerings may have led to even better products by Nikon/Canon.
DiffractionLtd
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"Sony is the finest mirror-less camera the world...oh God! It's starting to rain!! RUN!"
TN Args
Forum Pro
Surely you realize that they have only stepped into the ring. The amateur bantamweight has been zipping around the empty ring for 4 years, shadow boxing and showing the world his fancy footwork. Now the professional super-heavyweight champ and heavyweight champ have stepped into the ring.
If the bantamweight thinks the fight is over and he is still the champ, like you do, then we all need to pray for his well-being.
The ring announcer has called the names of the big boys and they have stepped into the ring. In 6 months the bell will go for the fight to begin. In 2 years Round 1 will be over. 14 more to go.
This could get ugly. Perhaps avert your eyes.
sandy b
Veteran Member
And the Nikon is yet to be reviewed.
I expect the Nikon to review VERY well, I guess 89 points, gold/silver. It might not have 2 slots, but its already more polished product. And make no mistake, Nikon has a much larger user base.
I expect the Nikon to review VERY well, I guess 89 points, gold/silver. It might not have 2 slots, but its already more polished product. And make no mistake, Nikon has a much larger user base.
Photography Matters
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"...but its already more polished product."
Wow, and you got that all from the specs and "first impressions?" Here's my opinion and then I'll shut up. All we have are specs and MTF charts currently. To me, the Nikon shows great promise. It should have wonderful IQ--talking primarily about the Z7--right out the gate. However, it trails in a couple of areas that are critically important to me--burst rate and buffer. Also, it's going to take a couple of years for the Zees to have the lenses I want and use. Moreover, I have bodies and lenses that satisfy my needs currently. Therefore, this generation of Z cameras are a non-starter for me. YMMV.
By contrast, the Sony is a well-rounded and currently useful system. It--talking about the A7R3-- betters my D810 in IQ, action photography, low-light photography, and ease of portraiture (eye-AF). I haven't used the D850, so I can't discuss which is better (I suspect they are close with the D850 surpassing the Sony in some areas and Sony better in others). However, what I get from Sony is the ability to use my Canon lenses (I never sold my Canon glass when I converted to Nikon--L glass is just too good!), and I can go super-compact when needed--either Samyang 35mm 2.8 or Canon 40mm pancake with adapter (still very compact).
I have no doubt that Nikon Z will get there, and I will likely acquire a Z camera as a to complement my kit or perhaps be my primary system. The Canon offering--which I absolutely was considering--leaves me cold. The sensor, if based on the 5DIV, still lags, and the absence of IBIS is mystifying. Thus, I'm completely done with Canon.
Hopefully there will eventually be Canon-Z adapter, which will leave me little reason to keep Sony. I'm not buying any more Sony glass (I love my 12-24mm UWA, and 35mm pancake gets use). I don't see it as a good long-term investment. However, if Nikon fails to improve as expected, and Sony does, then I may reconsider.
But for now, I'm good. Nikon Z offers me nothing I don't already have. Why would I acquire it today over a D850? The Sony, by contrast, gives me capabilities that I didn't already have and addresses existing needs. If you don't have Canon glass and you want a compact system to complement what you have, then a Z might make sense.
So, earlier adopters, do enjoy your Zees. I will likely join you in 2020 or 2021.
PWPhotography
Forum Pro
Funny that suddenly overnight you are becoming a Nikon fanboy from Canon's? ;-)
Yeah it's so 'poor' that I must be very lucky to have those shots ;-)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums/72157697486950524
7 GIF files from consecutive bursts that each shot is tack sharp, never miss, the AF points glued on the planes.
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1Um-6hojUBOJK2srLSuL1cMeDq1Kib0U6
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums/72157673028902128
Weather sealing is overblown. It's raining most day in 2nd day of my Yellowstone trip last week. I even didn't bother to pull out the Lenscover's raincover but just hided two cameras under my raincoat and pulled out to shoot from time to time, no problems at all.
Honestly I can claim that my A7r III/A9 combo can compete to D850/D5, 5D IV/1Dx II in any tasks in my usage and likely only better in certain areas with all native lenses available, and I only need one system, one mount for all tasks.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums
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sandy b
Veteran Member
Well polished
The Sony has clumsy interface and ergonomics. Yes, the Nikon is better in those respects, and I have handled the Sony.
The Sony has clumsy interface and ergonomics. Yes, the Nikon is better in those respects, and I have handled the Sony.
PWPhotography
Forum Pro
Highly subjective as Sony owners can say the same to Nikon or Canon. It will take time to get used to a new system. Not familiar with modern Nikon interface so only can compare to Canon system that I am very familiar with. Personally it's not my taste to have many physical analog buttons/switches on a camera body such as a dedicated ISO button/wheel that only slows down operation.
I am a 10-year savvy Canon owner and still own Canon 1D III that basically is the same as 1Dx line in ergonomic, button layout and shape. Personally I hate those dual-function buttons that I never can remember in muscle memory especially if in rush operation. I can make all necessary changes (I only shoot RAW) much quicker on Sony bodies such as ISO, EC (I know not that straight to make such change on Canon DSLRs). Then even AF navigation is not easy on Canon bodies - first you need press a (again) dual-function button (with picture viewing magnification) first before you can move AF point around. And you only can move horizontally, vertically or in circle but not diagonally, that something it's much easier with Sony joystick that not only you don't need to push any button first but you can move in any direction and diagonally. Then C1-C4 single function buttons are well placed (that not close each other) and very easy to remember. Also 4-direction push and central push on the back dial wheel. As a matter of fact, I can do everything including browsing menu without leaving eye in EVF that something I just cannot do with Canon DSLRs. MF is way easier with Sony bodies. And it's funny that Canon TS-E lenses are much easier to operate on E-mount than Canon own EF-mount.
When someone talking Sony menu sucks, he may not realize Sony has much more features including video than his Canon or Nikon DSLRs (exclude D850 probably). Nevertheless now 'My Menu' is great that is better than my 5D III and 1D III's one. To be honest although 1D III does balance EF 70-200L/2.8 IS II, EF 100-400L IS (I and II) and 500L/4.0 IS (that I used to own all) well, but it is also a pain to hold in many hours that my fingers got a bit of numb against a brick-like flat surface. I have no problem so far with A9 after holding several hours in an airshow. The same reason I had to return JbCamera Designs body-case (that I bought after got A9) as my ring and pinky fingers got numbed against a flat surface after while.
BTW, personally I have no issues in Sony bodies and handling. My hands are not small but with thin fingers so no any issue to fit into that narrow gap. I mounted a L-plate on A7r III and A9, not only for a bit longer grip but also for protection and tripod usage. With FE 70-200 GM or FE 100-400 GM attached, I added the vertical power grip on A9, not only for better load balance but for double batteries in action type photos. I took 17,280+ RAW photos in last airshow event and 2nd battery was still 32% left that is simply amazing, well above my last record of around 6500 photos from 1D III in an airshow. Nevertheless I have no issue if Sony changed the body shape in later models, but just waste current OEM power grip. Just hope not further increase size/weight much as I carry two cameras into any trips so size/weight is a significant factor to me.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums
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Actually, they both already did.
Oh, THEY can say it
But until they're reviewed, it would be unreasonable for anyone else to say it.Did they have a choice ? Sony floundered for a good long while with mirrorless (remember NEX ?) before they finally got into FF mirrorless and took it seriously. They realized that they had a window of opportunity in which they could be the only player in the market, and they systematically rolled out a competent lens lineup (something they never did for APS-C). They have to be thankful that Nikon & Canon gave them the head start that they did, but now the inevitable day is here. (I imagine they probably knew when it was coming, too).
They could have put out a worse product. Well, maybe not Canon
They took on an announcement ! And if your definition of "champ" is who sells the most (based on your first paragraph) then it's likely the champ will be unseated. Canon and Nikon have legions of EOS/F mount users and pent up demand for FF mirrorless and I guarantee you the Z's will outperform Sony with F mount lenses adapted to them.
- Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
javiair
Leading Member
Thank you for that thoughtful response. And yes that Nikon 1 system was a tremendous success for Nikon. Are they still on back order?Actually, they both already did.
Oh, THEY can say it
Did they have a choice ? Sony floundered for a good long while with mirrorless (remember NEX ?) before they finally got into FF mirrorless and took it seriously. They realized that they had a window of opportunity in which they could be the only player in the market, and they systematically rolled out a competent lens lineup (something they never did for APS-C). They have to be thankful that Nikon & Canon gave them the head start that they did, but now the inevitable day is here. (I imagine they probably knew when it was coming, too).
They could have put out a worse product. Well, maybe not Canon
They took on an announcement ! And if your definition of "champ" is who sells the most (based on your first paragraph) then it's likely the champ will be unseated. Canon and Nikon have legions of EOS/F mount users and pent up demand for FF mirrorless and I guarantee you the Z's will outperform Sony with F mount lenses adapted to them.
- Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
My buddy has one and he actually likes it and was disappointed when it was discontinued. I dont know what went wrong with that, maybe not the right time or marketing, or other issues, but it wasnt a boom. And I saw that Canon has there M series but I believe that was crop sensor as well as the Nikon 1. I was reading that those that have the M camera are kind of out of luck because no adapter for their lenses.. I wonder if that is true. And you are right about the other view point, that they could of brought out a worse camera. Do you feel that the Z line is on par or better than what Sony has to offer?
I have a D610 and although its a fine camera and can still hold its own. I am looking to upgrade. I think the Z line held off Sony and Im going to remain Nikon, I will wait to see what the reviews say. I questioned in another post the future of the D750. Wonder if they will replace it or is the Z6 it.
Either way, I think the Z line will be on par with the Sony. ..eventually
Unfortunately, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to high end video features. Anything that does 1080P and has a mic jack for my Rode is perfect. So I can't compare on features that I know are meaningful to others.
I really believe that Nikon designers sat down and tried to design a great mirrorless camera that (a) behaved like a Nikon DSLR (maybe not AF, but ergonomically), (b) made F mount lenses as compatible as possible and put a lot into this new mount that they think will carry them into the future. A lot of that means little to someone who doesn't have Nikon lenses or doesn't place a lot of value on ergonomics, and the lens mount may be more a long term investment than anything that shows immediate benefits. The EVF promises to be very good (I'm not that impressed with Sonys - best I've used was on a Fuji).
In summary, if the Z falls short in any specs/features, I don't think it reflects a lack of trying or an attempt to cripple mirrorless on Nikon's part; rather, it shows that their priority was to make the transition from DSLR to mirrorless as seamless as possible for its users.
Whether the cameras are on par with Sony depends entirely on what features you value - neither is a slam dunk. If Nikon were to come out with an APS-C version of the Z6, I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat. I'm contemplating the Z6 as I have two FF lenses (85/1.8 and 70-200/2.8 VR II) but I really like how they behave on APS-C. We'll see ... I'm not in a rush to do anything, but the camera themselves aren't holding me back ... more than I'm just not in the market for a $2000 FF camera at this time.
- Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
javiair
Leading Member
I am not a video person. I am also pretty ignorant about video qualities. I know people want 4k @ 60 fps and 1080p over 60 fps and all that is good, but that for me is not what will make a camera for me. I realize to others they are focusing on those stats and I just cant comment. I just talk about the Z, EOS R, A7, as a whole because to each their own on what they are looking for. Example would be the single card slot. Not a deal breaker to me but to others, its an instant No Go and others will look at the Canon's lack of IBIS and say thats okay, its in the lens and to others that is a No. I respect all points of view.
For me, I look for IQ, AF, dynamic range, high ISO performance, and FPS, followed by handling (how it feels in my hand). I have the D610 and D500 and together they do just fine, but I would love a camera that combines best qualities of both.
I am hoping the Z6 does just that.
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Iliah Borg
Forum Pro
It is far from their "best swings", it is recon by fire.
Canon, for example, reserved a camera ID that is above the one they used for EOS R. That usually happens if there is a project that precedes the current one. It is rather typical, at least for Canon, - for example, the work on Canon 1D started before it started on D30, yet D30 was available 1+ year before 1D.
The thinking is to test the elements of design more than anything else, and to test those elements wide, hence the affordable cameras, and not $5000+ offers; and also to show that they are getting serious about mirrorless cameras.
No, they didn't
Laslo Varadi
Veteran Member
I have no problem using either the Nikon D850 or the Sony A3. It’s pretty easy getting used to different cameras. I have also had Fuji and Olympus before.
PWPhotography
Forum Pro
Agreed. Give me a D850 or Z7 or R I can get used to it after a few days or a few weeks. No systems are perfect, all have kind of issues. Such as I like the EC button on Sony bodies but it can be easily accidentally bumped in action photos so I had to tape the EC wheel on A9. Then I assigned to the down push on back dial wheel when I need EC, but just lose my last EC after camera power down, annoying but not a biggie however. Sony really needs to add a much needed lock on the EC wheel, but guess some dislike who need constantly EC. In this case I like Z or Nikon traditional way of EC, push the button and rotate.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums
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Jim Salvas
Veteran Member
I'm outside the fray, having used m43 cameras for the last five years, but I have been thinking of switching to a full frame mirrorless and I've been watching with interest. I'm still a little biased, though, as I was a Nikon user from the first time I bought a Nikon F (without meter, mind you) in Nikon's own Tokyo store in 1966, while on R&R from Vietnam. From there on, I had just about every top of line Nikon, until the dawn of digital.
That bias considered, I still think Nikon easily has the edge (at least on paper) for retaining current customers with a couple of well-thought-out models. It is treating its customers with respect, giving them a good IBIS implementation which is backwards compatible with a bazillion legacy lenses. It is a gift from Nikon heaven that ALL of your old lenses now get to be stabilized. Wait until you get a chance to try that out. The AF looks to be at least acceptable and the video specs look good. To boot, Nikon is introducing some new affordable glass for the new models.
Canon, on the other hand, has dissed its customers (IMO) with a single expensive model that does not even match the last generation Sony on specs. No IBIS. Cropped video. Eye-watering prices for at least three of the four new lenses, two of which don't even offer stabilization. The Canon crowd is reduced to saying that the lenses they really want have OIS or that real men use tripods.
Like many here, the Sony models have not set me on fire, especially the handling. Maybe I'd feel differently about an A9, but that's just too darned expensive for me and I'm not a sports or wildlife shooter.
I'll wait and see what the new Panasonic has to offer, but really, Nikon folks, you seem to have something really nice here. I still have some Nikon lenses on the shelf and I may come back home.
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Jim Salvas
"You miss 100% of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky
That bias considered, I still think Nikon easily has the edge (at least on paper) for retaining current customers with a couple of well-thought-out models. It is treating its customers with respect, giving them a good IBIS implementation which is backwards compatible with a bazillion legacy lenses. It is a gift from Nikon heaven that ALL of your old lenses now get to be stabilized. Wait until you get a chance to try that out. The AF looks to be at least acceptable and the video specs look good. To boot, Nikon is introducing some new affordable glass for the new models.
Canon, on the other hand, has dissed its customers (IMO) with a single expensive model that does not even match the last generation Sony on specs. No IBIS. Cropped video. Eye-watering prices for at least three of the four new lenses, two of which don't even offer stabilization. The Canon crowd is reduced to saying that the lenses they really want have OIS or that real men use tripods.
Like many here, the Sony models have not set me on fire, especially the handling. Maybe I'd feel differently about an A9, but that's just too darned expensive for me and I'm not a sports or wildlife shooter.
I'll wait and see what the new Panasonic has to offer, but really, Nikon folks, you seem to have something really nice here. I still have some Nikon lenses on the shelf and I may come back home.
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Jim Salvas
"You miss 100% of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky
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