Canon: That's how you do a mirrorless launch

The way you make it sound the camera could be wicked at events. An f2 zoom and -6-- af. BUT if you could carry two a7iiis with 1.8 primes at the same weight that gives you four memory cards and a backup........

We also haven't seen the -6ev af in action. Remember one of the asterisks is WITH a 1.2 lens. So I guess with an f2 that would be -4.5 AND.......we have yet to see how well this camera really performs.

Another footnote is Canon seriously crippling the video. So if you are doing events and a bit of video now you need another body for video. Well don't "need" but I think you get my drift
 
Just 3 fps servo (AF-c). It's just the first generation, but still a bit low.

Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
That's exactly what got my attention, but i think that's the typical Canon marketing strategy, i believe this is just their first try, a mid-entry R camera to test the water, and the high end one will come really soon and then you can get much better frame rate and dual card, they will provide you a path for us to " upgrade". LOL
 
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The way you make it sound the camera could be wicked at events. An f2 zoom and -6-- af. BUT if you could carry two a7iiis with 1.8 primes at the same weight that gives you four memory cards and a backup........
Yes, as I wrote (I am from Sweden so maybe my meaning wasn't clear), quoting myself again: "I shot some low light events, I often use the FE35/1.4 on my A9. It works but having a zoom is always nice. I would need to give up one stop of light in the glass though. And the low light AF difference is 1.5 EV (Canon gives the -6EV figure at f1.2 while Sonys -3EV is at f2). So in reality I would not gain much on paper but get a zoom and a hole in my wallet if I changed."

By that I mean that I don't seem to win that much.
We also haven't seen the -6ev af in action. Remember one of the asterisks is WITH a 1.2 lens. So I guess with an f2 that would be -4.5 AND.......we have yet to see how well this camera really performs.

Another footnote is Canon seriously crippling the video. So if you are doing events and a bit of video now you need another body for video. Well don't "need" but I think you get my drift
I don't shot much video at all. My A9 does it good enough at the few times I need to capture movement or sound to be recorded, but how good or bad that is against the new Canon R, I have no clue. The most important thing for me is that it works in low light and that the AF works well. What format and how many pixels (HD, 4K etc) is not that important to me as long as it is reasonable good video quality, the AF is more important actually. And good sound without extra microphone is also important.
 
If I do the calculation: two (2) A73 bodies + 28/2 + 55/1.8 and 85/1.8 is only minimally more in weight (about 50-60g) then one A73 + this 28-70/2 zoom (2.1kg), giving more reach.

So not an easy decision, unless one looks at the price, only (5800$ vs. 5000$). One has two cameras though, one for back-up or in parallel.
I shot some low light events, I often use the FE35/1.4 on my A9. It works but having a zoom is always nice. I would need to give up one stop of light in the glass though. And the low light AF difference is 1.5 EV (Canon gives the -6EV figure at f1.2 while Sonys -3EV is at f2). So in reality I would not gain much on paper but get a zoom and a hole in my wallet if I changed.

Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
The mirrorless wars in summary:
Canon says: RRR... RRR... RRR...
Nikon: ZZZZZZZZ....
Sony: We are the knights who say FE!

42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
I am so used to primes and the quality I get with them, I don't need a zoom, especially as I have two cameras on me with different primes. I like the symmetric weight distribution across my shoulders, being quite a lot lighter on each and to lift, esp. as soon as a flash is added, too, compared to using just on cam with this f2 zoom. But everybody is different.

Yes, it is around -4.5 ev at f2. I had the 5div which was rated -4ev at f2 using DPAF. At events, when using both side by side, the Sony nailed the shot faster and more securely all the time. So I am careful in judging this value until I could try it out myselves.
 
If I do the calculation: two (2) A73 bodies + 28/2 + 55/1.8 and 85/1.8 is only minimally more in weight (about 50-60g) then one A73 + this 28-70/2 zoom (2.1kg), giving more reach.

So not an easy decision, unless one looks at the price, only (5800$ vs. 5000$). One has two cameras though, one for back-up or in parallel.
I shot some low light events, I often use the FE35/1.4 on my A9. It works but having a zoom is always nice. I would need to give up one stop of light in the glass though. And the low light AF difference is 1.5 EV (Canon gives the -6EV figure at f1.2 while Sonys -3EV is at f2). So in reality I would not gain much on paper but get a zoom and a hole in my wallet if I changed.

Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
The mirrorless wars in summary:
Canon says: RRR... RRR... RRR...
Nikon: ZZZZZZZZ....
Sony: We are the knights who say FE!

42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
I am so used to primes and the quality I get with them, I don't need a zoom, especially as I have two cameras on me with different primes. I like the symmetric weight distribution across my shoulders, being quite a lot lighter on each and to lift, esp. as soon as a flash is added, too, compared to using just on cam with this f2 zoom. But everybody is different.

Yes, it is around -4.5 ev at f2. I had the 5div which was rated -4ev at f2 using DPAF. At events, when using both side by side, the Sony nailed the shot faster and more securely all the time. So I am careful in judging this value until I could try it out myselves.
I must ask this now as I never how they actually measured this AF@EV rating...so you're telling me it's almost rubbish what they say?
 
We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
Agreed- to me, Canon are like Apple. People will buy it no matter what because "Canon make cameras". It matters not whether it's the best device or not, it's the name people know. I still know of people who assume smartphone==iPhone and think Android is not a smartphone. Or that Samsung==Android and no other choice exists. A recognised name is worth a lot.
It is not the brand name, it is the ergonomics. Canon and Nikon know how to shape a camera body and where to put the controls. Sony is still learning. If Sony does have the claimed slight technical superiority, it is not significant for most of the uses to which photos can be put.
 
I've heard all that before, and it's a weak argument.

I used to own Nikon, and when I moved to Sony about 6 years ago, it took me a day or two to get used to it. I've never regretted the move, or wished Sony had better ergonomics.

Den
 
We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
Agreed- to me, Canon are like Apple. People will buy it no matter what because "Canon make cameras". It matters not whether it's the best device or not, it's the name people know. I still know of people who assume smartphone==iPhone and think Android is not a smartphone. Or that Samsung==Android and no other choice exists. A recognised name is worth a lot.
It is not the brand name, it is the ergonomics. Canon and Nikon know how to shape a camera body and where to put the controls. Sony is still learning.
Ergonomics are just a matter of opinion. I have zero issues with my A7R3 and if I did there are grips half cases etc. Yet when I tried the 5D IV for a comparison review it felt just massive and uneasy to use and I have normal size hands. In other words, there is no right or wrong when it comes to ergonomics as we all have different needs.
If Sony does have the claimed slight technical superiority, it is not significant for most of the uses to which photos can be put.
Slight? You remind me of some users from the m43 forum. You try to minimize the obvious/undeniable technical advantages of the Sony while then trying to make "ergonomics" as this massive advantage to the Canon. So facts vs preferences ..

I shoot different formats and different brands as to me it's only gear and as I have to pay for anything I use, I owe nobody any loyalty... in other words... it's time to remove the fan goggles and analyze things logically.
 
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I've heard all that before, and it's a weak argument.

I used to own Nikon, and when I moved to Sony about 6 years ago, it took me a day or two to get used to it. I've never regretted the move, or wished Sony had better ergonomics.

Den
Exactly!

You may notice the pattern that as Sony has been fixing all the issues of the past like battery life, lack of lenses etc all that is left is wrong or misleading claims like menus suck, bad ergonomics or color science non of which really is valid today.

Of course some things s would be nice to improve like fully articulated lcd or full tilt. More touch screen features and 4k60p for example. With the new FF cameras i hope it pushes sony to add those features.

PS when this thread was originally created, it was in the Sony forum otherwise I wouldn't be here posting again.
 
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I've heard all that before, and it's a weak argument.

I used to own Nikon, and when I moved to Sony about 6 years ago, it took me a day or two to get used to it. I've never regretted the move, or wished Sony had better ergonomics.
At least the FF Sony's have dual control dials. The small APS-C models don't and are kind of fiddly to control. Between my D7000 and my A6500, I definitely prefer the viewfinder (the ease of looking through it with glasses) and the controls on the D7000. But Sony has come a long way (since NEX !) and I find the RX10 quite good (better than the A6500 for controls) and the RX100 very good for its size. Looking at pics of the new Z models, I suspect I (and many others) might like the ergonomics of it better than the Sony models. But all said and done, that's a very small factor when it comes to who sells how many cameras. There, it's down to Sony's features and lineup versus Nikon's F mount compatibility.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
If I do the calculation: two (2) A73 bodies + 28/2 + 55/1.8 and 85/1.8 is only minimally more in weight (about 50-60g) then one A73 + this 28-70/2 zoom (2.1kg), giving more reach.

So not an easy decision, unless one looks at the price, only (5800$ vs. 5000$). One has two cameras though, one for back-up or in parallel.
I shot some low light events, I often use the FE35/1.4 on my A9. It works but having a zoom is always nice. I would need to give up one stop of light in the glass though. And the low light AF difference is 1.5 EV (Canon gives the -6EV figure at f1.2 while Sonys -3EV is at f2). So in reality I would not gain much on paper but get a zoom and a hole in my wallet if I changed.

Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
The mirrorless wars in summary:
Canon says: RRR... RRR... RRR...
Nikon: ZZZZZZZZ....
Sony: We are the knights who say FE!

42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
I am so used to primes and the quality I get with them, I don't need a zoom, especially as I have two cameras on me with different primes. I like the symmetric weight distribution across my shoulders, being quite a lot lighter on each and to lift, esp. as soon as a flash is added, too, compared to using just on cam with this f2 zoom. But everybody is different.

Yes, it is around -4.5 ev at f2. I had the 5div which was rated -4ev at f2 using DPAF. At events, when using both side by side, the Sony nailed the shot faster and more securely all the time. So I am careful in judging this value until I could try it out myselves.
I must ask this now as I never how they actually measured this AF@EV rating...so you're telling me it's almost rubbish what they say?
It is not rubbish, but misleading.

So far, all manufacturers presented the sensitivity value measured with a lens at f2. Even Canon did so in the past with the 5div DPAF sensitivity. Now, Canon wrote -6ev, wowing people, but closer inspection reveals they used an f1.2 lens. This gives you about 1.5 ev better values. Related to f2, we therefore would get -4.5ev sensitivity (the 5div had -4ev, the Sony A7s -4ev, the Nikon D5 -4ev at the center point, for example, but dslrs are different in that respect). What is important, too, is how large an AF area was used to measure that. When I used the 5div, the AF point in DPAF was quite large, something between flexible spot M and L on my A7riii, for example. It makes a huge difference in low light to focus with S, M or L.
 
If I do the calculation: two (2) A73 bodies + 28/2 + 55/1.8 and 85/1.8 is only minimally more in weight (about 50-60g) then one A73 + this 28-70/2 zoom (2.1kg), giving more reach.

So not an easy decision, unless one looks at the price, only (5800$ vs. 5000$). One has two cameras though, one for back-up or in parallel.
I shot some low light events, I often use the FE35/1.4 on my A9. It works but having a zoom is always nice. I would need to give up one stop of light in the glass though. And the low light AF difference is 1.5 EV (Canon gives the -6EV figure at f1.2 while Sonys -3EV is at f2). So in reality I would not gain much on paper but get a zoom and a hole in my wallet if I changed.

Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
The mirrorless wars in summary:
Canon says: RRR... RRR... RRR...
Nikon: ZZZZZZZZ....
Sony: We are the knights who say FE!

42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
I am so used to primes and the quality I get with them, I don't need a zoom, especially as I have two cameras on me with different primes. I like the symmetric weight distribution across my shoulders, being quite a lot lighter on each and to lift, esp. as soon as a flash is added, too, compared to using just on cam with this f2 zoom. But everybody is different.

Yes, it is around -4.5 ev at f2. I had the 5div which was rated -4ev at f2 using DPAF. At events, when using both side by side, the Sony nailed the shot faster and more securely all the time. So I am careful in judging this value until I could try it out myselves.
I must ask this now as I never how they actually measured this AF@EV rating...so you're telling me it's almost rubbish what they say?
It is not rubbish, but misleading.

So far, all manufacturers presented the sensitivity value measured with a lens at f2. Even Canon did so in the past with the 5div DPAF sensitivity. Now, Canon wrote -6ev, wowing people, but closer inspection reveals they used an f1.2 lens. This gives you about 1.5 ev better values. Related to f2, we therefore would get -4.5ev sensitivity (the 5div had -4ev, the Sony A7s -4ev, the Nikon D5 -4ev at the center point, for example, but dslrs are different in that respect). What is important, too, is how large an AF area was used to measure that. When I used the 5div, the AF point in DPAF was quite large, something between flexible spot M and L on my A7riii, for example. It makes a huge difference in low light to focus with S, M or L.
Aside from letting in more light, there is one other issue, namely phase separation is much clearer and wider with faster lenses. This makes the comparison that much trickier.
 
We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
Agreed- to me, Canon are like Apple. People will buy it no matter what because "Canon make cameras". It matters not whether it's the best device or not, it's the name people know. I still know of people who assume smartphone==iPhone and think Android is not a smartphone. Or that Samsung==Android and no other choice exists. A recognised name is worth a lot.
It is not the brand name, it is the ergonomics. Canon and Nikon know how to shape a camera body and where to put the controls. Sony is still learning. If Sony does have the claimed slight technical superiority, it is not significant for most of the uses to which photos can be put.
As many pointed out, ergonomics is very subjective, contrary to sensor or AF performance, which can be measured.

Example: My colleague has a chair in ergonomics in our engineering department. He often researches different products with many probands, using sensors, interviews, polls etc. to objectively measure ergonomics. One of his studies investigated screw drivers, which have "ergonomically shaped" grips etc. There was a large spread in opinions and results.

I like the ergonomics perfectly, as soon as I use the battery grip or RRS base plate, for example. I like having the choice to stay small, or add an extension.
 
We have every right to be concerned about Sony's market performance. They've still have quite some advantages over the first generation Canikon, but consumers value the recognizable brand name way too much.
Agreed- to me, Canon are like Apple. People will buy it no matter what because "Canon make cameras". It matters not whether it's the best device or not, it's the name people know. I still know of people who assume smartphone==iPhone and think Android is not a smartphone. Or that Samsung==Android and no other choice exists. A recognised name is worth a lot.
Do you really want to start the whole Android/iPhone thing?
 
Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
There are adapters and then there are adapters. Adapters between different brands often rely on reverse engineering and there's no guarantee of future compatibility. I have nothing against reverse engineering, but it does come with risks, including one side deliberately breaking it. Adapters involving optical elements also introduce more glass into the light path, so more loss.

That's not the case here. All three parts of the system (lens, adapter, and body) are under Canon's direct control, and the adapter itself is basically an extension tube (perhaps with protocol conversion that again is under Canon's control). Canon has done a really good job of maintaining compatibility with older lenses, to boot.
 
Oh, 1 card slot. Why, Canon, just why?
Sony has set the bar high - very very high. It will take Canikon quite some time to catch up, if ever. But for those invested in Canon or Nikon gear, these are viable alternatives, I guess.

Adapted lenses are never ideal. As many Sony shooters found out and eventually moved to all native glass...
There are adapters and then there are adapters. Adapters between different brands often rely on reverse engineering and there's no guarantee of future compatibility. I have nothing against reverse engineering, but it does come with risks, including one side deliberately breaking it. Adapters involving optical elements also introduce more glass into the light path, so more loss.
no doubt......the more direct control of all one party can be a little more reliable
That's not the case here. All three parts of the system (lens, adapter, and body) are under Canon's direct control, and the adapter itself is basically an extension tube (perhaps with protocol conversion that again is under Canon's control).
Your missing that those DSLR lenses were designed for DSLRS. There are small differences in design that can effect overall performance
Canon has done a really good job of maintaining compatibility with older lenses, to boot.
historically? or with the R? Historically no. They dumped a lens mount when it was time. They are doing it again with the R. As to how well the R actually works with all 64* Ef lenses ever made we will find out soon.

*that was wikipedia. I thought it would have been higher. It is a thirty year old mount, no?
 
There are adapters and then there are adapters. Adapters between different brands often rely on reverse engineering and there's no guarantee of future compatibility. I have nothing against reverse engineering, but it does come with risks, including one side deliberately breaking it.
If Canon changes the EF-mount protocol then they need to issue firmware upgrades to every EF-mount camera that has been made since 1987. Doesn't sound reasonable. Older bodys might not even be possible to upgrade without being sent in. Sound like a support nightmare.

Also the reverse engineering people are fairly good at figuring things out so it wouldn't probably take long before they know the change made, and the adapters have firmware upgradability and the users of those are used to upgrade the adapters as well, since the development pace is high.
Adapters involving optical elements also introduce more glass into the light path, so more loss.
Those adapters are basically only used on crop sensors to boost light by using more of the otherwise lost image circle and when the flange to sensor distance is longer on the body it will be adapted to. So doesn't apply to mirrorless FF bodys with their short flange to sensor distance, adapters for those are all glass less inside.
That's not the case here. All three parts of the system (lens, adapter, and body) are under Canon's direct control, and the adapter itself is basically an extension tube (perhaps with protocol conversion that again is under Canon's control).
The Canon R bodys seems to be double protocol knowledgeable so they speak EF and RF protocol and switches between them depending on what lens it recognizes. So the adapters seems to just be electrically passing the signal through. That is well done by Canon. The RF protocol is faster with a higher clock frequency. One must remember that EF was made in 1987 so things have happened since then.

I'm not sure how Sony has implemented the A-mount protocol in the E-mount adapters, like the LA-EA3, meaning if it just passes through or translates. The LA-EA3 is like Canons RF adapters or Nikons Z adapter in that it only works with lenses with their own focusing motor. Canon has no lenses without motor, but Nikon has, and those users are left without auto focusing on the Z.
Canon has done a really good job of maintaining compatibility with older lenses, to boot.
Yes, and so has Nikon and Sony done as well, Sony even took care of the users that have lenses without focusing motor and supplies the LA-EA4 adapter which drives them. To be honest, the AF-module would gain from an update to the same one as in the A99II camera, or even better be driven by on sensor AF, but at least Sony has an working option for the old Minolta screw drive lenses etc. It will be interesting to see if Nikon will follow with an adapter like that one day.

But really, anyway you do it, adapters is still a plaster solution. It fixes the problem on the surface but not the root cause. Native lenses made for mirrorless will always be better.

--
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
 
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There are adapters and then there are adapters. Adapters between different brands often rely on reverse engineering and there's no guarantee of future compatibility. I have nothing against reverse engineering, but it does come with risks, including one side deliberately breaking it.
If Canon changes the EF-mount protocol then they need to issue firmware upgrades to every EF-mount camera that has been made since 1987. Doesn't sound reasonable. Older bodys might not even be possible to upgrade without being sent in. Sound like a support nightmare.
No need to break compatibility with EF lenses. It's just enough that they break compatibility with RF. One way to do it completely transparently is to allow encryption and leave it disabled for the time being.

If Canon or Nikon gain market slowly and ramp up as they expect, everything is fine. But as soon as there is risk that third party RF lens makers are having a nice living at their expense, they release firmware upgrades (and later new cameras) that are digitally signed and cannot be downgraded from, and have a programmed encryption enable kill switch. At that moment, all communication (or at least the initial handshake) between the body and RF lens (or RF-EF adapter) is encrypted, and your third party RF lenses become expensive paperweights. And this forces those third party makers to license RF at any cost, or accept returns from dissatisfied users.

You know what's funniest about this? It has all the needed features at once. It's legal, it's trivial, it's cheap, it's innocuous and it can be sold as being for a good cause (for instance to prevent stolen lenses from working).
That's why not having an open mount today (as opposed to 1980s) is something to be extremely wary of.
Also the reverse engineering people are fairly good at figuring things out so it wouldn't probably take long before they know the change made, and the adapters have firmware upgradability and the users of those are used to upgrade the adapters as well, since the development pace is high.
Encryption with digital signatures using private key infrastructure is virtually impossible to break.
Adapters involving optical elements also introduce more glass into the light path, so more loss.
Those adapters are basically only used on crop sensors to boost light by using more of the otherwise lost image circle and when the flange to sensor distance is longer on the body it will be adapted to. So doesn't apply to mirrorless FF bodys with their short flange to sensor distance, adapters for those are all glass less inside.
Moreover, their advantages completely outweigh any potential losses. A well made focal reducer will boost light by a stop and increase resolution (even if you lose, say, 10% of total resolution, you still gain 31% (41-10) with a 0.7x focal reducer).
That's not the case here. All three parts of the system (lens, adapter, and body) are under Canon's direct control, and the adapter itself is basically an extension tube (perhaps with protocol conversion that again is under Canon's control).
The Canon R bodys seems to be double protocol knowledgeable so they speak EF and RF protocol and switches between them depending on what lens it recognizes. So the adapters seems to just be electrically passing the signal through.
We don't know that for sure. RF protocol is significantly faster and relatively inexpensive electronics can do EF translation on the fly. That's going to be necessary on the adapter with the control ring.
That is well done by Canon. The RF protocol is faster with a higher clock frequency. One must remember that EF was made in 1987 so things have happened since then.
New EF lenses can be expected to allow dual mode, though. If it detects it's on a fairly recent body, it will switch to RF protocol, and fall back to EF as needed. This may include future DSLRs, and in fact may include current DSLRs and lenses, it might have been quietly introduced already.
I'm not sure how Sony has implemented the A-mount protocol in the E-mount adapters, like the LA-EA3, meaning if it just passes through or translates.
It translates the commands, the protocol is completely different, although it might work in pass through with some new lenses as the A communication protocol was updated several years ago (A77 with 16-50 was the first release) and virtually all communication with supported lenses is done on one dedicated bidirectional line.
The LA-EA3 is like Canons RF adapters or Nikons Z adapter in that it only works with lenses with their own focusing motor. Canon has no lenses without motor, but Nikon has, and those users are left without auto focusing on the Z.
Canon has done a really good job of maintaining compatibility with older lenses, to boot.
Yes, and so has Nikon and Sony done as well, Sony even took care of the users that have lenses without focusing motor and supplies the LA-EA4 adapter which drives them. To be honest, the AF-module would gain from an update to the same one as in the A99II camera, or even better be driven by on sensor AF, but at least Sony has an working option for the old Minolta screw drive lenses etc. It will be interesting to see if Nikon will follow with an adapter like that one day.

But really, anyway you do it, adapters is still a plaster solution. It fixes the problem on the surface but not the root cause. Native lenses made for mirrorless will always be better.
 

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