I think a Panasonic FF makes perfect sense... not the death of m43!

It's the same when using extreme tele, or even telescope. You can use virtually any lens or telescope with a m4/3 camera (so the limit is the lens), and the higher linear resolution of the sensor will get you a little "closer" to the subject. Not 2x closer, because full-frame has higher overall resolution. You would need a full-frame sensor with 80 mpix to produce equivalent results.
Or take the longer lens, and it will get you closer.
Please, please, try to understand. You do not have a longer lens. The longest lens available for a full-frame camera is, let's say, a 1200 mm. You can put that lens on a m4/3 and it will get you closer.

The same applies to macro - there are no lenses that you can use on a full-frame, but not on a m4/3. So the same lens will get you smaller details when used with an m4/3 sensor.
 
Tens of millions of dollars is less than the office petty cash float for a company the size of Panasonic ...

Last time I looked (around the mid to late 1990s), Panasonic made over 32,000 products. If you own anything with any kind of electronic components, chances are that some of the parts will be made by Panasonic.
If this were true, that tens (upon tens) of millions of dollars is nothing for a company like Panasonic
Trust me, it is true ...
to invest into lenses, what took so long for them to fill out the m43 lens line, with items that seemed to be what the public demanded???
Because nothing happens by magic, perhaps?
BINGO!!!!!
And you worked this out when ... ?
And if this is true, why should a brand new Panasonic FF camera be competitive with the established Sony Alpha system?
Perhaps because Panasonic is a far bigger company than any other camera maker. Perhaps bigger than all the rest combined ...
Your magic only work one way? While Panasonic is filling out its FF lens line, Sony will kindly stand still and not introduce anything new, so that poor, lonely Panasonic can catch up, and they sing kumbaya together??
Your words, not mine. As a retired accountant, perhaps I understand manufacturers and manufacturing better than some, along with strategic and tactical business planning and development cycles and times.
You're an accountant. I am in manufacturing.

Trust me, people have NO idea of manufacturing, they think that everything can be made on short notice the exact way they want it. Materials realty? A 1mm wall is completely unrealistic? No way! That's what I want!

Grrr. Please don't get me started 😒
There seems to be an agreement that designing a new lens (unless it's a minor revision of an old one) takes 2-3 years. People seem not to get this... Plus even a trivial revision takes a LOT of production engineering.
 
It's the same when using extreme tele, or even telescope. You can use virtually any lens or telescope with a m4/3 camera (so the limit is the lens), and the higher linear resolution of the sensor will get you a little "closer" to the subject. Not 2x closer, because full-frame has higher overall resolution. You would need a full-frame sensor with 80 mpix to produce equivalent results.
Or take the longer lens, and it will get you closer.
Please, please, try to understand. You do not have a longer lens. The longest lens available for a full-frame camera is, let's say, a 1200 mm. You can put that lens on a m4/3 and it will get you closer.
If it has the aperture ring, and if it does not focus by wire.

Is longer better, really?
The same applies to macro - there are no lenses that you can use on a full-frame, but not on a m4/3. So the same lens will get you smaller details when used with an m4/3 sensor.
Tried Sigma 150/2.8 (Nikon mount) with an adapter, nope, it does not work that way. Have you tried it yourself?

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- sergey
 
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Because nothing happens by magic, perhaps?
BINGO!!!!!

And if this is true, why should a brand new Panasonic FF camera be competitive with the established Sony Alpha system?
Because of 8k video, perhaps? It would be the only one on the market, so Sony wouldn't even be a competition.
We're so far down the thread perhaps my original point is lost, which was exactly that. I can see them designing a FF camera to shoot 8k, although I would think they would use an existing mount (so no lens designs needed). Probably one with lots of Cine lenses available (EF, PL, etc.). Would e very expensive.
 
The same applies to macro - there are no lenses that you can use on a full-frame, but not on a m4/3. So the same lens will get you smaller details when used with an m4/3 sensor.
Tried Sigma 150/2.8 (Nikon mount) with an adapter, nope, it does not work that way. Have you tried it yourself?
What doesn't work?
 
The same applies to macro - there are no lenses that you can use on a full-frame, but not on a m4/3. So the same lens will get you smaller details when used with an m4/3 sensor.
Tried Sigma 150/2.8 (Nikon mount) with an adapter, nope, it does not work that way. Have you tried it yourself?
What doesn't work?
You can not control the aperture with it (it is controlled from the camera). In fact it will not work with almost any of the modern lenses I have, including for macro.

Like I said, have you yourself tried it?

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- sergey
 
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If by chance, Panasonic does not gimp features and releases a FF version of their G9, they could very well command a premium price over the Sony A7III and smash it out of the park! Wouldn't that be something?
Using what lenses?
This!!! Does anyone around here besides a few people have any sense of reality??! Get off your fixation on bodies and think of SYSTEM INVESTMENT: Why would any sane buyer, besides the rabid fans on forums, buy a new $2k+ FF Panasonic that has no lenses?! Compared to Sony, with a full system, and even Nikon, who recognized the problem and made an adapter??

What possible reason would this thing be expected to fly off the shelves upon introduction? At most Panasonic would announce 3 lenses at time of unveiling, and it would take years just to BEGIN to fill out a reasonable lens lineup.
I think the only chance Panasonic can survive is to somehow make an agreement with Sony and uses the Sony (F)E mount.
Panasonic are a massive company , they made aprox $3.4 billion operating profit almost five times what Olympus made, as such their survival is not in doubt :-) Panasonic and Sony have a long rivalry in a number of areas such professional video so i doubt very much they would work together. I wonder if Panasonic are aiming this at the high end video market where prices for gear get astronomical.
Panasonic already makes higher-end video gear. I'm sure they will continue to do so. That's not the same as ILCs where their market share is small (order - Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic; and Sony have 13% market share, Oly sell less then 500k cameras) .

A high-priced FF halo ILC 8k camera won't sell enough copies to do anything but lose a lot of money on lenses designed to go with it, but could do okay if they use a mount with a lot of video lenses. That is a single product, not a system. They could do what Sony does and pay people like Tamron to design some new lenses, but as the ILC part of Panasonic Imaging have been instructed to make money or risk closure I struggle to see why they would embark on something that could never make its money back (a range of FF lenses) vs. something that might (8k camera using existing lenses).
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Jim Stirling
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” John Adams
 
I think the only chance Panasonic can survive is to somehow make an agreement with Sony and uses the Sony (F)E mount.
Panasonic are a massive company , they made aprox $3.4 billion operating profit almost five times what Olympus made, as such their survival is not in doubt :-) Panasonic and Sony have a long rivalry in a number of areas such professional video so i doubt very much they would work together. I wonder if Panasonic are aiming this at the high end video market where prices for gear get astronomical.
That's.. an excellent observation! They said "full frame SYSTEM camera", who said that this system must be stills oriented?
Current Varicams are Super-35, so maybe a FF one?
 
That lens you are talking about mounting must have an aperture ring on it and not focus by wire. Not interested.
LOL What does it matter if you are interested or not. I am talking about the advantages of higher linear resolution of the sensor.

It's very simple in fact - larger pixels collect more light, smaller pixels collect more details. The funny thing is, you cannot have both at the same time. It's a law of physics.
 
If they can deliver FF and still provide the ability to use existing M43 lenses in crop mode that would be a winner. It means I could invest in both FF and smaller M43 bodies.

I guess we'll wait and see!
 
If they can deliver FF and still provide the ability to use existing M43 lenses in crop mode that would be a winner. It means I could invest in both FF and smaller M43 bodies.

I guess we'll wait and see!
Though you'd need a huge pixel count to make such a large crop a winner?!?
 
If they can deliver FF and still provide the ability to use existing M43 lenses in crop mode that would be a winner. It means I could invest in both FF and smaller M43 bodies.

I guess we'll wait and see!
Though you'd need a huge pixel count to make such a large crop a winner?!?
80M = 20M crop

40M = 10M crop which is still good for me!

The FF sensor would also be multi aspect with M43 glass.
 
That lens you are talking about mounting must have an aperture ring on it and not focus by wire. Not interested.
LOL What does it matter if you are interested or not. I am talking about the advantages of higher linear resolution of the sensor.
I already told you it does not work that way.Have you tried it yourself? Why are you avoiding to answer? You are making the statement and then you ask me why it does not work - do you have any idea at all of what you are talking about?
It's very simple in fact - larger pixels collect more light, smaller pixels collect more details.
And more pixels, what happens then?
The funny thing is, you cannot have both at the same time. It's a law of physics.
You have larger frame with more pixels on it, it will collect more light and it will deliver more detail. In addition it will stress the lenses less than if you put the tightly packed small sensor behind it. What both and law of physics are talking about?

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- sergey
 
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That lens you are talking about mounting must have an aperture ring on it and not focus by wire. Not interested.
LOL What does it matter if you are interested or not. I am talking about the advantages of higher linear resolution of the sensor.
I already told you it does not work that way.Have you tried it yourself? Why are you avoiding to answer? You are making the statement and then you ask me why it does not work - do you have any idea at all of what you are talking about?
It works exactly like that. And yes, I have tried it myself - can get more magnification in macro with an m4/3 than is possible with a full-frame.
It's very simple in fact - larger pixels collect more light, smaller pixels collect more details.
And more pixels, what happens then?
LOL, you really don't get it, do you? You have two full-frame sensors, one with 20 mpix, one with 40 mpix. Larger pixels on a 20 mpix sensor will collect more light (less noise), smaller pixels on a 40 mpix sensor will collect more details. You cannot have both on the same image - low noise of 20 mpix sensor and high details of 40 mpix sensor.

It's a variant of uncertainty principle.

 
Panasonic move to FF does not make any sense for me. Right now everybody can design and build FF body but the problem is with lenses. It took Sony many years to create still pretty smal group of native E lenses. Nikon and Canon have big advantage with hundreds of DSLR lenses which can be used with proper adapter.

Panasonic on the other hand has nothing. Current m4/3 lenses cannot be used for FF, they are simply too small to cover the frame. Someone suggested using Leica SL lenses but this must be a joke. These lenses are astronomically expensive and they would push the sales of the camera to the niche of tiny group of buyers. I do not see any other real solution.
 
That lens you are talking about mounting must have an aperture ring on it and not focus by wire. Not interested.
LOL What does it matter if you are interested or not. I am talking about the advantages of higher linear resolution of the sensor.
I already told you it does not work that way.Have you tried it yourself? Why are you avoiding to answer? You are making the statement and then you ask me why it does not work - do you have any idea at all of what you are talking about?
It works exactly like that.
Exactly like how, most of the modern lenses do not have aperture rings on them, so how do you set the aperture then?
And yes, I have tried it myself - can get more magnification in macro with an m4/3 than is possible with a full-frame.
Magnification is like the size of the camera, at some point it just gets very uncomfortable to hold it. There are many ways to achieve it, at whatever discomfort you chose to live with, cropping is just not something I would put on the list of the macro photography achievements.
It's very simple in fact - larger pixels collect more light, smaller pixels collect more details.
And more pixels, what happens then?
LOL, you really don't get it, do you? You have two full-frame sensors, one with 20 mpix, one with 40 mpix. Larger pixels on a 20 mpix sensor will collect more light (less noise), smaller pixels on a 40 mpix sensor will collect more details. You cannot have both on the same image - low noise of 20 mpix sensor and high details of 40 mpix sensor.
They will collect the same amount of light regardless of how many pixels they have. It is not the size of the pixels, it is the size of the sensor (the area the light is projected on) that determines it.
Just have a look here (top two cameras); one has twice as many pixels as the other, both have the same noise at the ISO I would not use.

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- sergey
 
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Panasonic move to FF does not make any sense for me. Right now everybody can design and build FF body but the problem is with lenses. It took Sony many years to create still pretty smal group of native E lenses. Nikon and Canon have big advantage with hundreds of DSLR lenses which can be used with proper adapter.
It's true that Nikon and Canon have a large catalog of adaptable lenses for their new mirrorless systems.

However, I generally want to be using lenses designed for my camera, not lenses adapted to my camera.
Panasonic on the other hand has nothing.
In the lens category, yup.

They do have all of the IP necessary to make the cameras, though, and only a handful of companies have that. Notably: Sony, Olympus, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Pentax.
Current m4/3 lenses cannot be used for FF, they are simply too small to cover the frame. Someone suggested using Leica SL lenses but this must be a joke. These lenses are astronomically expensive and they would push the sales of the camera to the niche of tiny group of buyers. I do not see any other real solution.
It does seem like quite a stretch to make a major dent in that market. My guess is that the large sunk costs in IP in m43 will translate well to the 135 format, so launching a new system won't end up costing them much in terms of new engineering relative to launching 4/3 and m4/3.

Either way, it doesn't really affect me. I didn't buy into m43 because it was Panasonic (it was actually the Olympus m43 prototype that first caught my attention), and I'm not going to give up the advantages that m43 has just because Panasonic releases a different line of cameras.

I do wish them good luck, though.
 
That lens you are talking about mounting must have an aperture ring on it and not focus by wire. Not interested.
LOL What does it matter if you are interested or not. I am talking about the advantages of higher linear resolution of the sensor.
I already told you it does not work that way.Have you tried it yourself? Why are you avoiding to answer? You are making the statement and then you ask me why it does not work - do you have any idea at all of what you are talking about?
It works exactly like that.
Exactly like how, most of the modern lenses do not have aperture rings on them, so how do you set the aperture then?
And yes, I have tried it myself - can get more magnification in macro with an m4/3 than is possible with a full-frame.
Magnification is like the size of the camera, at some point it just gets very uncomfortable to hold it. There are many ways to achieve it, at whatever discomfort you chose to live with, cropping is just not something I would put on the list of the macro photography achievements.
It's very simple in fact - larger pixels collect more light, smaller pixels collect more details.
And more pixels, what happens then?
LOL, you really don't get it, do you? You have two full-frame sensors, one with 20 mpix, one with 40 mpix. Larger pixels on a 20 mpix sensor will collect more light (less noise), smaller pixels on a 40 mpix sensor will collect more details. You cannot have both on the same image - low noise of 20 mpix sensor and high details of 40 mpix sensor.
They will collect the same amount of light regardless of how many pixels they have. It is not the size of the pixels, it is the size of the sensor (the area the light is projected on) that determines it.
Just have a look here (top two cameras); one has twice as many pixels as the other, both have the same noise at the ISO I would not use.

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- sergey
 
They will collect the same amount of light regardless of how many pixels they have. It is not the size of the pixels, it is the size of the sensor (the area the light is projected on) that determines it.
Wrong. The total amount of light - total information - is "divided" between the quality (lack of noise) and quantity (resolution). Larger pixels have lower noise, but the resolution is also lower. You cannot have low noise and high resolution at the same time. It is a fundamental limit of digitalisation, or sampling, of any information.
Just have a look here (top two cameras); one has twice as many pixels as the other, both have the same noise at the ISO I would not use.
Well, you obviously don't understand what is going on. At full resolution, the noise is not the same. The noise is the same only if you reduce the higher resolution (it's called downsampling or pixel-binnig). As I said, you simply cannot have low noise and high resolution at the same time (on the same image). Physicaly impossible.
 
They will collect the same amount of light regardless of how many pixels they have. It is not the size of the pixels, it is the size of the sensor (the area the light is projected on) that determines it.
Wrong. The total amount of light - total information - is "divided" between the quality (lack of noise) and quantity (resolution). Larger pixels have lower noise, but the resolution is also lower. You cannot have low noise and high resolution at the same time. It is a fundamental limit of digitalisation, or sampling, of any information.
Just have a look here (top two cameras); one has twice as many pixels as the other, both have the same noise at the ISO I would not use.
Well, you obviously don't understand what is going on. At full resolution, the noise is not the same. The noise is the same only if you reduce the higher resolution (it's called downsampling or pixel-binnig). As I said, you simply cannot have low noise and high resolution at the same time (on the same image). Physicaly impossible.
And the total amount of light per frame, is it not the same?

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- sergey
 

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