DSLR dominance doesn't necessarily mean MILC dominance

Jonathan Brady

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Long post ahead. Fair warning. Don't complain about the length of it if you continue reading...

Personally, I'd like to see Canon hit a home run with their upcoming FF MILC. However, I'm a bit skeptical. Here are some thoughts running through my head...

♫Come together, right now, over me♫

Can we all agree that competition is good? Can we all agree that mirrorless is, more than likely, here to stay, and quite possibly, the future of ILC photography? Can we all agree that Canon leads the market in market share and dollars? Can we all agree that they'd probably like to maintain that position? Can we all agree that this isn't guaranteed?

Great!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have just lost cabin pressure

Can we all agree that Canon has a contentious reputation, especially over the last 10 years?

On the one hand, they are viewed as being the brand for professionals thanks to durable, reliable products, industry-best professional services, and the depth and breadth of their ecosystem to satisfy almost any photographic need.

On the other hand, they are seen as conservative to a fault, often lacking when it comes to innovation, and many would agree that Canon sees their consumer base as gullible (especially when it comes to "refreshing" something old and calling it new) and largely "captive".

I don't think Canon supporters or detractors would deny that Canon relies on their "brand" as well as apathy and emotional attachment quite heavily and that it nets them a LOT of sales.

♫Hit me with your best shot♫ No, seriously... Canon, bring your "A game"

I believe that traditional marketing strategies for Canon will not fare as well as they have in the past when it comes to FF mirrorless. Canon is used to depending on jaw-dropping, awe-inspiring brand loyalty, brand recognition and marketing, and lens expertise to command their body prices.

Technologically speaking, when it comes to this market segment (FF Mirrorless), Canon is currently absent in what will likely end up being a 3-brand field. Not only are they absent, they're 5 years behind (as of October 2018). 5 years wasn't much when AF first appeared as the pace of tech advancement was, by today's standards, a snap of the fingers.

5 years in today's tech is 3 generations of camera bodies (for Sony, anyway). In 5 years Sony went from niche product (A7/A7R) for niche photographers to the A9/A7III/A7RIII which are winning awards left and right and can meet the needs of practically any photographer.

Meanwhile, in that same 5-year span, Canon managed to go from the 6D to the 6D Mark II. Sure, the bar started higher with the 6D than the A7, but the rate of advancement for Sony was obscene and they blew past the 6D Mark II before it was even released. I'm fairly certain the folks at Canon, Inc heard an unexplainable sonic boom back in 2015. That was Sony.

You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

As we saw with the 6D Mark II being dropped from a launch price of $2000 to an effective price of $1200 within a few months of launch, Canon's strategy of relying on brand loyalty and brand recognition was beginning to crumble. Consumers were suddenly better educated when it came to options than ever before, and they grew tired of being drip-fed advancements because they heard that sonic boom, too. Unlike Canon, they saw where it came from.

Couple that discontent with the explosion in online reviews from exponentially more sources and you have a "boiling pot". When you toss in the widespread preference for online shopping (which necessarily means a decline in face-to-face interactions at the local camera store and being exposed to their *theoretically informed* purchasing advice) and you have the explanation for why Canon's history of incremental upgrades and riding the waves of past success is now a recipe for disaster.

We should also keep in mind that very few shoppers new to cameras will be looking at FF mirrorless. Those looking to purchase FF mirrorless are a new breed. If they go somewhere like Best Buy to get a feel for a camera, more than likely they will know more about the various systems than the employees working there. And that's where most go to see them in person because, again, camera stores are largely a thing of the past.

When you try and convince your wife that you were awake the whole time and heard every word...

As of this week, we're seeing the reception Nikon is getting with the Z mount and what being absent for 5 years will get you. Granted, I believe Nikon shot themselves in the foot a bit as they told everyone that they were going to reinvent mirrorless which led to lofty expectations (because most everyone has seen what the A7III is capable of - as evidenced by Sony leading the FF market in sales for 6 months straight) and that led to rampant disappointment from consumers and many hands-on testers.

The consensus seems to be that the Z6/7 are somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd gen Sony bodies in most performance-related ways, depending on what features are important to the person doing the analysis. The only exception I remember seeing is that DPR said that this is Nikon's most well-rounded camera, ever. Had Nikon brought these cameras to market 18 months ago before the A9 debuted, I believe these cameras would have been universally embraced as fantastic, especially if there were dual card slots.

Is it better to learn from our own mistakes or the mistakes of others? Ideally, both!

So, what should Canon do? Here's my take.
  • NOT count on brand loyalty and brand recognition for starters. They need to IMPRESS people. Canon's FF mirrorless needs to be seen as legitimate all on its own. If we put tape over the logos and forgot about the EF mount, could Canon's FF MILC system compete?
  • Bring back Eye-Controlled Focus and reintroduce it in FF MILC.
  • Throw a TON more processing power and better algorithms behind their Eye AF that they introduced in the M50 because that implementation is terrible.
  • DPAF needs a shot of N2O and the additional processing power mentioned above should help it keep up with the best mirrorless currently has to offer. If you believe it currently does (for stills), I'll happily sell you my M5.
  • Introduce an anti-distortion, black-out free silent electronic shutter like in the A9.
    • To take the lead in the field, it would be a global shutter so that flash could be used without resorting to the mechanical shutter (which is the only practical difference between a global shutter and the electronic shutter that the A9 has).
  • Quit being stingy (and downright ridiculous) and implement 4K video with multiple formats, at least one of which needs to be full-sensor 30p
  • Don't forget dual card slots
  • Don't screw up the basics by trying to save money or keep the DSLR line viable. For instance, stabilize the dang sensor, the EVF needs to be great, maintain the excellent touch screen, etc. Take the hit up front to launch the system and play the long game when it comes to profits and volume.
♫A whole new world, A dazzling place I never knew♫

That's the FF mirrorless version of the 5D line that I envision. I'd also expect it to be priced at a premium above the current 5D line. I think they'd be smart to have a regular model (akin to the 5D Mark IV) for $4000 with 39mp so they can make 8K video a purchasable FW upgrade. They could also offer an upgrade to some insane burst rate (buffer may suffer though) for an additional $1000-2000 or so. Or, rather than upgrade for speed, just release a different body akin to the 1 series which could maintain the buffer performance and tack on even more money, just for fun.

Consider this total package for a minute. Seriously. A $4000 camera body with Eye-Controlled AF, Eye AF, silent electronic shutter, DPAF and versatile 4K (and an 8K option). All of that stands on own as INCREDIBLE but then you back it up with industry-leading pro support and a great flash system... Wedding photographers, line up! Event photographers, you too! Action shooters, pony up an extra $1-2K and you can jump in line behind the others! No fighting!

The Lost Boys

Who hasn't been taken care of yet? Enthusiasts with a lower budget and the high-res folks (landscape/studio).

Complement the prior camera with one that competes with the A7III. Perhaps this model doesn't have Eye-Controlled Focus and it has DPAF performance better than the 5D Mark IV (to the extent that a FW update might provide). I might even suggest a single card slot but after the thrashing Nikon is enduring, maybe not. A lower-res, slower-refresh EVF is a no-brainer as well. Regular shutter, too. Normal res with "consumer" build quality and an insanely high res model with a more durable "weather sealed" build quality would round out the camera body offerings.

Seeing the world through a different lens

What about lenses for this new mount? Here are my suggestions for launch day:
  • 24-70/2.8 (L)
  • 70-200/2.8 (L)
  • 24-105/4
  • Fast portrait prime (L)
  • Moderate-speed portrait prime
  • 2-3 wide/standard primes (L or maybe not) where the EF equivalent is noticeably deficient compared to modern glass (to me, the 35L II is the standard for modern, glass)
  • No compromise adapter for EF glass (like they already have). I know I mentioned above the system needs to stand on its own, but that doesn't mean they should ignore potential users.
I understand that 7-8 lenses seem like a lot but it's really not especially for a company with the manufacturing capacity of Canon. Sony is launching 5-6 lenses per year, Nikon's goal is 6 per year as well. Canon's manufacturing capacity is larger than both of these combined. I think launching with 8 lenses plus an adapter is easily doable for Canon.

Geez man, wrap it up

If you're Canon, in my opinion, that is how you GUARANTEE that your company will be number one for a very, very long time to come. Not only would you have a best-in-class offering straight out of the gate, you have multiple options, value-oriented FW upgrades, and you've set the bar, not limboing under it with your back dragging in the sand (ahem, 6D Mark II).

Disclaimer

Very little of the above is a statement of fact. Almost all of it is my opinion. Feel free to rip it apart. But let's keep it civil.
 
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I totally agree, DSLRs have been dominating the DSLR market for over a decade. And those 2 will continue to compete with each other.
 
Long post ahead. Fair warning. Don't complain about the length of it if you continue reading...
Well, nobody complained, but you didn't get much discussion, either. I'll admit, it was too much for me to read it all, but I'll reply to part that I did read ...
Can we all agree that Canon has a contentious reputation, especially over the last 10 years?
No. Here on dpreview, sure. But we're a community of gripers. Out in the "real world" (tm) people just use their gear. And more of them are using Canon gear than any other. My daughter has two teenage friends who just bought (or were gifted) their first ILCs. Both Canon DSLRs. I don't think more than a very small percentage of people view Canon's reputation as anything less than stellar.
♫Hit me with your best shot♫ No, seriously... Canon, bring your "A game"
Canon thrives without an "A game". It's sensors trail Sony's; it's 1" sensor cameras trail Sony's; it's mirrorless trails everyone elses, but they dominate.

I think it's all marketing genius based on exploiting a huge existing user base, and I think that they will absolutely dominate mirrorless, too. I think their track record demonstrates that they know what to produce and how to market it, even if reviewers or non-Canon users aren't impressed. So sure, they can't just roll out any old cr*p and guarantee sales ... but they won't do that; they'll roll out something that will sell. It will be their A game, but the company's A game, meaning, a carefully curated product designed with whatever knowledge their marketing people have that allows them to dominate the market while being so conservative.
- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
Long post ahead. Fair warning. Don't complain about the length of it if you continue reading...
Well, nobody complained, but you didn't get much discussion, either.
Wondering if I pre-empted 149 TLDR posts... 😂
I'll admit, it was too much for me to read it all, but I'll reply to part that I did read ...
Can we all agree that Canon has a contentious reputation, especially over the last 10 years?
No. Here on dpreview, sure. But we're a community of gripers.
I think it applies, to a large extent, to the online community of photographers. Not just DPR. I doubt that many people with a decent amount of online interaction would say they never read/hear that Canon holds back.
Out in the "real world" (tm) people just use their gear. And more of them are using Canon gear than any other. My daughter has two teenage friends who just bought (or were gifted) their first ILCs. Both Canon DSLRs. I don't think more than a very small percentage of people view Canon's reputation as anything less than stellar.
♫Hit me with your best shot♫ No, seriously... Canon, bring your "A game"
Canon thrives without an "A game". It's sensors trail Sony's; it's 1" sensor cameras trail Sony's; it's mirrorless trails everyone elses, but they dominate.

I think it's all marketing genius based on exploiting a huge existing user base, and I think that they will absolutely dominate mirrorless, too. I think their track record demonstrates that they know what to produce and how to market it, even if reviewers or non-Canon users aren't impressed. So sure, they can't just roll out any old cr*p and guarantee sales ... but they won't do that; they'll roll out something that will sell. It will be their A game, but the company's A game, meaning, a carefully curated product designed with whatever knowledge their marketing people have that allows them to dominate the market while being so conservative.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
Truth
 
I did not realize that your post from 4 days ago until someone bumped this to the top. Well done!

Well I agree with what you said but I don't think Canon can beat much what Nikon has offered with the exception of EF mount extender for the Canon full frame EF-M line. I don't think Canon has the better sensor than the A7III or the Nikon D850 but they may surprise all of us.

In the meantime, it was really not that a big deal to use the Canon EF lenses on a modern ML body, say the Sony A7III or A7RIII. What Canon can do is to provide an "EF2ML" adapter which would work better on the EF lenses than all third party adapters.

Even without this new magical Canon EF2ML adapter, the off shelf Metabones V does the job in the meantime giving all Canon lenses the IS treatment without spending a fortune.

Canon lenses that work on Canon DSLR and Sony ML bodies
Canon lenses that work on Canon DSLR and Sony ML bodies

Enjoy the fun of the new ML world!

--
Nelson Chen
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro V11
 
I don't care about market dominance. I just care about price/performance ratio.
 
In real use I never had issues with canon sensors. At one time I moon lighted a fair bit for event and wedding photography for a former IT colleague who had become a full time photographer. I had used multiple camp cameras at that time. What did stand out about Canon is they were a joy to use ergonomically.

All I remember is Canons were tough and performed reliably.

When it counts, I could count on my own 5D Mk II which was my weapon of choice at that time. With the 580EX II flash, the thing could focus in near no light thanks to the speedlight AF assist beam.

All I am trying to say is the one company you project so badly makes reliable gear. Which may mean a lot in the field.
 
In real use I never had issues with canon sensors. At one time I moon lighted a fair bit for event and wedding photography for a former IT colleague who had become a full time photographer. I had used multiple camp cameras at that time. What did stand out about Canon is they were a joy to use ergonomically.

All I remember is Canons were tough and performed reliably.

When it counts, I could count on my own 5D Mk II which was my weapon of choice at that time. With the 580EX II flash, the thing could focus in near no light thanks to the speedlight AF assist beam.

All I am trying to say is the one company you project so badly makes reliable gear. Which may mean a lot in the field.
You need to spend more time taking photos of brick walls and black cats inside mines and then pres ++++++ on your screen.
 
As soon as I saw this colossal pile of BS in the middle of your post

"as evidenced by Sony leading the FF market in sales for 6 months straight"

I knew it wasn't worth reading it (length or no length).

LMAO
 
As soon as I saw this colossal pile of BS in the middle of your post

"as evidenced by Sony leading the FF market in sales for 6 months straight"

I knew it wasn't worth reading it (length or no length).

LMAO
That was a supplemental point to a primary point about the performance of the A7III.

So, what exactly is the problem? The fact that I referenced that statistic or the statistic itself (feel free to refute it)?
 
Well the specs and photos are out. I don't think we have to worry about lack of ambition and counting on loyalty (28-70 f/2).
 
SO many are in denial. The train has left the station and there is no stopping it. Within the next 12-36 months Cannon, Nikon and Others will be releasing ML up and down the entire line - you'll see the last one or two releases of traditional DSLRs - there will be a few more on the high-end. Resale prices of the old will fall through the floor sooner than later based just on the perception that traditional DSLRs are obsolete and dozens of new mirrorless models hit the market on both the low and high end.

My prediction doesn't reflect whether I like or don't like mirror-less (the jury is out on that), it is simply the market reality over which current owners are in classic denial. We've seen this movie before - with film cameras, then with CCD sensors, now with mirrorless.

This is the equivalent of an avalanche - most current owners are at the base of of the mountain and slide has already begun at the top. Those at the base are are the base sipping hot chocolate totally unaware of what's already coming down the mountain.

It is simply a classic example marketing reality. They will make tons of red ties - and convince the majority of the market that they all need red ties. They teach us this in Marketing 101 - and it works most every time.
 
SO many are in denial. The train has left the station and there is no stopping it. Within the next 12-36 months Cannon, Nikon and Others will be releasing ML up and down the entire line - you'll see the last one or two releases of traditional DSLRs - there will be a few more on the high-end. Resale prices of the old will fall through the floor sooner than later based just on the perception that traditional DSLRs are obsolete and dozens of new mirrorless models hit the market on both the low and high end.

My prediction doesn't reflect whether I like or don't like mirror-less (the jury is out on that), it is simply the market reality over which current owners are in classic denial. We've seen this movie before - with film cameras, then with CCD sensors, now with mirrorless.

This is the equivalent of an avalanche - most current owners are at the base of of the mountain and slide has already begun at the top. Those at the base are are the base sipping hot chocolate totally unaware of what's already coming down the mountain.

It is simply a classic example marketing reality. They will make tons of red ties - and convince the majority of the market that they all need red ties. They teach us this in Marketing 101 - and it works most every time.
Thank god were not all sheep then.
 
Long post ahead. Fair warning. Don't complain about the length of it if you continue reading...
This is DPR. We're all here to complain. The post is too long.
Personally, I'd like to see Canon hit a home run with their upcoming FF MILC. However, I'm a bit skeptical.
Canon will do what Canon always does. They will make a great product that is tough reliable and useful, but missing some of the gadgetry of other companies' cameras.
Here are some thoughts running through my head...

Ladies and gentlemen, we have just lost cabin pressure

Can we all agree that Canon has a contentious reputation, especially over the last 10 years?

On the one hand, they are viewed as being the brand for professionals thanks to durable, reliable products, industry-best professional services, and the depth and breadth of their ecosystem to satisfy almost any photographic need.
The ecosystem is the most important factor in my decision and underestimated in almost all of these discussions.
On the other hand, they are seen as conservative to a fault, often lacking when it comes to innovation, and many would agree that Canon sees their consumer base as gullible (especially when it comes to "refreshing" something old and calling it new) and largely "captive".
No. Canon sees their customers as demanding of certain advantages that others don't come close to. They don't compromise those aspects of their gear that are superior to chase the latest spec or gadgetry of those behind them.
I don't think Canon supporters or detractors would deny that Canon relies on their "brand" as well as apathy and emotional attachment quite heavily and that it nets them a LOT of sales.
Compare lens selection, flash system, durability, ergonomics, color science, and pretty much everything else except DR and high ISO of top sensors. Some of the Sony special shooting modes are useful also. In general, Canon is ahead in many areas.
♫Hit me with your best shot♫ No, seriously... Canon, bring your "A game"
I'm fairly certain the folks at Canon, Inc heard an unexplainable sonic boom back in 2015. That was Sony.
With their lousy selection of overpriced lenses, rinky dink grips, and fiddly controls.
You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

As we saw with the 6D Mark II being dropped from a launch price of $2000 to an effective price of $1200 within a few months of launch, Canon's strategy of relying on brand loyalty and brand recognition was beginning to crumble. Consumers were suddenly better educated when it came to options than ever before, and they grew tired of being drip-fed advancements because they heard that sonic boom, too. Unlike Canon, they saw where it came from.
Canon always hammers early adopters with outrageous prices. Buy after the first year of release, and you get great value. That has been true of every new Canon body as well as most lenses. The price drop is no recognition of anything except the fact that people will overpay for something when it first comes out.

IN RED - "camera stores are largely a thing of the past."

Not really. I buy all my camera gear from a locally owned camera store with knowledgable staff, Houston Camera Exchange. Those times that I have checked online prices, they have been the same.
So, what should Canon do? Here's my take.
  • Quit being stingy (and downright ridiculous) and implement 4K video with multiple formats, at least one of which needs to be full-sensor 30p
  • Don't forget dual card slots
  • Don't screw up the basics by trying to save money or keep the DSLR line viable. For instance, stabilize the dang sensor, the EVF needs to be great, maintain the excellent touch screen, etc. Take the hit up front to launch the system and play the long game when it comes to profits and volume.
4K seems like an easy one to offer, but I don't know and don't shoot video much.

The DSLR will stick around as long as there are people who prefer it. They are many. Canon is a big enough company to have two lines of cameras.
 
I totally agree, DSLRs have been dominating the DSLR market for over a decade. And those 2 will continue to compete with each other.
I dont think so.

Dslr are totaly old crap tech from the past century.

Within 5 years you will only find them on the used market as relics for nostalgics.

Either the get used to it or you know you are just an hasbeen from the past century.
 
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