EOS R + the future of the M-series, looks GREAT!

EOS R mockup (this is NOT the EOS R)

.
I've always said (here) that I'd certainly buy a Canon FF Mirrorless when they released one. Full Frame is essential to the sort of low light and especially astro-work that I enjoy. The smaller body size (compared to DSLRs) is important for other reasons. I'm certainly buying this camera but it's a non-essential luxury for both myself and most others who already own FF cameras. There's a temptation to hold back a little although i feel confident in this new package. I'm noticing a lot of panic from the forum members on the various boards here with the pre-release leaks from Japan. They know it's going to make waves in the industry because it's quite a big deal, even if you don't see what the fuss is all about. You don't even need to buy one to appreciate what Canon are about to launch. This is also great news for everyone. A lot of the cutting edge technology crammed into this new camera will indeed trickle down to the future EOS-M models. The folks on the various Sony and Nikon forums are quite impressed with the leaked rumors. If these specs are real (and they now appear to be confirmed, especially considering the source) then I'd say Sony are going to lose a lot of future sales. The other forums are picking up on some of the leaked lenses as well. Overall, the early impressions I'm seeing is that folks from other adopted systems are quite 'wowed' by the EOS R leaks. Normally I'd see a lot of ridicule aimed Canon's way with new releases but this time there's nothing but excited chatter. This is a good start. The last thing we need is for Canon to fumble the ball (again).
.
The new EOS R system looks exciting. Visually and function-wise, it ticks all the boxes. it looks smart and it appears to be very well thought-out during the design phase. I'm sure we'll spot a couple of bugs (missing features) when the fill specs and pre-release statement from Canon is up for us to see... but already it looks like Canon have gambled on the new mount and body to carry them forward. I really do like everything on offer so far although I.S. on lenses is pretty desirable these days so it might be a hard sell to get folks to spend big on a couple of those new lenses.
.
But it's going to to be EXPENSIVE. You just know those L-series lenses are going to come with the 'Trojan Horse of R&D costs' intertwined with New Release pricing. Canon KNOW you'll pay dearly as a first adopter. And these new lenses are seductive in appearance.
.
Canon have even (wisely) chosen to use the LP-E6N battery that so many DSLRs from Canon use. Little things like that make the purchase more practical. Anyone migrating from an existing DSLR can hopefully use their existing batteries. They have proven themselves to be reliable little powerhouses.
.
-6 EV .... who would have predicted this? -3 EV is for focusing in moonlight (and perhaps even starlight on occasion) so -6 EV is really something to behold.
.
An extended Battery Grip? YES !
.


EF lenses on EF extenders on EF-to-R adapters on an EOS R camera. Not bad!


The very same lens on the EOSM. (it's sluggish on this first Gen EOSM...however....) It's almost an ideal companion for the EOS M100, M6, M5 and M50.

.
Looks like the 2x III extenders can be used with certain L-series lenses on the new EOS R - and that mirrors our experiences with the newer EOS-M series cameras. This is just great news. You don't need to buy any new lenses if you don't need them... just grab the EOS R camera and mount your EF lens to it. The future of the EOS M and the EOS R look very good indeed from where I sit.
.
That ER 24-70 f/2L lens... have you noticed how HUGE that lens is? The diameter is monstrous. It's going to cost THOUSANDS and so is the body. You're going to need some cash flow to buy this camera with at least one useful lens and accessories. But the costs involved? Yeah.... painful without a doubt.
.
I'm sure there will be plenty of threads when the official announcements are made but what I wanted to say here is for those of you worried that the EF-M series is at risk or that it's in some way less useful. The M will always be a very practical camera because of the smaller body size and reduction in weight. Some of these new lenses are going to cost THOUSANDS of dollars at initial release. Compare that to the $199 EF-M 22mm f/2 lens. The good thing is that we just KNOW Canon are going to load the EOS R with 4K. And 4K will likely be featured on all future M-series cameras because the public both expects and demands it.
.
For those who have never used a Full Frame sensor camera before...
...they offer a 'true, stated' focal length from any suited lens but they generally produce stronger bokeh (when standing at the same distance) than smaller sensors and they capture much more light with identical exposures of the same time (compared to APS-C or smaller sensors). For this reason they tend to perform extremely well in low light environments. And that's where I tend to shoot a lot of the time. Otherwise, APS-C has benefits of its own. And on the whole, APS-C is often a more practical choice for most photographers. One of which is that APS-C sensors are still less expensive to produce and it results in a much smaller photographic system. The "crop" effect on APS-C sensors should be seen as another benefit. Especially if you WANT the extra zoom. There's plenty of places you can carry a larger bodied camera so don't be so swift to consider selling off your M-series cameras uneless you can't justify owning two systems. And if money is that much of a problem, you might want to hold off selling anything until you see a confirmed sale price to refer to.
.
DSLRs are going to be phased out over the next 6 years or so with perhaps just one model for pro-users anticipated to exist in another 10 years from now. Everything else on the market will be mirrorless and that's great because this is where all the manufacturers are headed. Smaller cameras and lighter lenses are where we're going. But Full Frame bodies will always be quite a bit larger than APS-C bodies and they'll always have different requirements with lenses.
.
The EOS M platform is only now just getting serious...
Canon aren't abandoning this format. Sure, they appeared to drag their feet in the dirt a little... But I believe we'll start seeing less EF lenses produced as Canon continues to build R lenses (ER lenses?) to continue expanding into mirrorless territory. EF-M lenses will continue to surface and they ought to be released as people embrace their mirrorless system further. Just as their DSLRs are broken down into APS-C and Full Frame, the mirrorless models will continue this very trend. Expect to see less DSLR models announced in future. The quality from our mirrorless cameras today is really nice. The APS-C DPAF sensors on the M100, M50, M6 and M5 are exceptionally nice. The next generation of DPAF II sensors promises to continue to propel the M-series into the future.
.
Just think about the price of and M50 with the EF-M 11-22mm wide lens? The Full Frame equivalent in DSLRs is much, much, much bigger, heavier and more expensive. HUGE differences and yet the image quality is comparable. In comparison, the advantages of a Full Frame sensor really stands out for Low Light photography when fast lenses are used. But there are many instances where I simply don't bother bringing my FF DSLRs with me because my EOS M cameras can achieve very similar results. Today was one of those days... I drove up the coast with my larger FF DSLR+EF85mm f/1.2L II lens and I only took a couple of pictures with it. I spent the rest of the day shooting from sun-up to sun-down with the EOS M6 + EF-M 22mm f/2 lens. It was lighter and the pictures from it were superb. The results were different because of the shallower DOF from one system but I suspect that future lenses (especially the rumored EF-M 32mm f/1.4 lens will allow the M-series to stand tall among its non-Canon peers.
.


One of the leaked images of the Canon EOS R

.
Canon is moving forward...
We keep asking when Canon will pick up the ball and run with it and this appears to be one of those times when they've made big changes to their product lines that are completely in our interest. The release of a new lens format is the start of a new chapter for Canon. You can see how serious they are by announcing L-series f/1.2 lenses alongside their first release. I imagine the other manufacturers must be quite uncomfortable right now. There's going to be plenty of interesting new threads plus a new Canon EOS R forum (no doubt) here to explore and contribute towards. it will be a few months until we see a release so there's plenty of time for discussion and speculation. Expect to see a slowdown of compact cameras as Canon concentrate their tech into smaller subcompacts and a slimming down of the selection. I also believe that they won't need to sell too many mirrorless models simultaneously.
.
The best thing...
The best thing about the new release coming soon is that Canon is clearly going to expand on lens development using new technology now available to them. Unless you really need the use of a FF sensor, the EOS M platform will serve you just like an APS-C DSLR but presumably at less cost and less weight. Canon intend to continue both lines of mirrorless products simultaneously and that's fantastic because we all know the image quality the M-series is capable of.
.


EOS M6 + EF-M 22mm f/2 STM - taken just a couple of hours ago - these sorts of shots used to be the domain of Full Frame DSLRs with fast lenses. Nice details and low light exposures with shallow DOF seems to appeal to the eye no matter which camera takes the shot. (I did run a little NR on this shot).

.
I'm not selling or even retiring my EOS M6 camera. Not a chance. They're enormously powerful little cameras that fit in the hand or clip to my belt or shoulder. Those of you with any of the DPAF camera models in the M-series ought be in a similar frame of mind. In a way, nothing has really changed other than a new "format" of camera and lens system being announced shortly. The new EOS R won't take pictures that look any different at all from shots taken with existing entry-level FF DSLRs right now. But new technology will offer enhancements in the technology and many professionals will be swayed back towards Canon to continue with their exploration with mirrorless platforms.
.
The EOS R is an inevitable and essential first step. Canon had to take it. And we've been waiting for some time for them to show their commitment and reveal which way they intend to influence the industry. Sure, other manufacturers have taken the first steps but if you look at how many models Sony released before they came close to perfecting their own Mirrorless systems you can see how taxing it was for Sony's financial reserves. And Sony never perfected their mirrorless cameras. The term "Stars and Stripes" and "overheating" come to mind. I'm sure Canon have found a way to work around this by now. And with a new lens system in play, you can expect plenty of eye-opening shallow DOF shots to be gracing these pages - taken with the new optics sold alongside the early release model of the EOS R.
.
As far as I'm concerned, there's just two main ICL systems for serious photographers who prefer using Canon: the EOS M and the EOS R series. Right now, I'm getting superb results from my M-series cameras. Even for astrophotography, the M-series is giving me the better results right now than my FF DSLRs and that's quite surprising. But there are times when I'll use a FF DSLR for indoor or lowlight performance. For those with deep pockets, the R series is simply a replacement for their DSLR with a FF sensor.
--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Please tell me this is an Image Stabilization switch on the side below the AF/MF switch?

.
I know the leaks are usually short of some basic information because they usually rely on the images supplied. Often a lot of assumption is thrown in... but if the cutout of the lens is accurate... there's another switch on the side of this lens... right below the AF/MF switch. Anyone want to guess at what it does? If that's an IS switch I'm selling my cats into slavery in a salt mine for the down-payment.
--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

...is the size comparison to the Canon FF DSLR's. This pending R camera seems truly like a mirrorless camera - seemingly much smaller than a DSLR (as compared to the Nikon Z - which looks almost as large as a FF DSLR).

If that price is right - in particular, with the 24-105 F4 lens - then I will begin a massive sell off of some of my prized camera collections in order to help my purchasing this new model. Even has an articulating LCD and the body design (IMO) looks sleek and well designed.

Additionally, as I alluded to in another thread, the fact the Panasonic (in conjunction with Leica) will also be releasing a FF mirrorless camera within the next few weeks is, perhaps, even a bigger story. Why? It marks a major technological shift (step-up) from what was seemingly a fixed Micro 43 mindset. As an M43 user also, I'd be curious to see if Panasonic will continue to focus heavily on M43, or if they'll split their focus between M43 and FF.

This is a good comparison...

And only 5 oz. more than the M5.

Plus it's Magnesium!

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

R2D2 said:

And only 5 oz. more than the M5.

Plus it's Magnesium!

R2

Click to expand...

Magnesium is a serious move forward. The body will be tough although the price will be steeper than expected. This is the Pro model with a second, cheaper model allegedly due later. Details should be released on the 5th September.
.
Did I read somewhere that there's a universal drop-in filter adapter for the EOS R? - and that you just need one filter and it has a drop-in port behind the lens on the mount. You then use all your lenses with the one drop-in filter sandwiched between the lens and the body, just like with the expensive White L-series lenses.

R2D2 said:

This is a good comparison...

And only 5 oz. more than the M5.

Plus it's Magnesium!

Click to expand...

Are these comparison images to scale ? Not sure if my eyes are deceiving me but the hotshoe on the R looks small compared to the hotshoe on the camera to the right.

Wow - that changes everything for me. If that R is almost as large as a DSLR (again, using the hot shoe size as an example), then that nixes my interest.

New mount looks like no way to use M lenses. Oh well, not that many anyway. This is a sure sign that Canon thinks of M as lower end amateur and it will remain that way. The message is go FF if you want any serious lenses.

Do you see any downsides beside the price and the future of your cats?

Ben Herrmann said:

Wow - that changes everything for me. If that R is almost as large as a DSLR (again, using the hot shoe size as an example), then that nixes my interest.

Click to expand...

That's a really dodgy Photoshop. The lenses on the cameras have off-axis bulges and curvatures implying that someone knocked this together from available leaked images. I think that you'll have to wait until the model has been announced. I think the purpose of that image was supposed to show how much smaller the new ER 24-105mmL lens is compared to the old EF 24-105mmL lens.
.
Something else to consider is that Canon named all their newer Speedlite flashes with the 'RT' title, indication they used Radio Transmitters instead of IR. Perhaps this is somehow connected to the EOS R title? (I'm just guessing that perhaps there's a reason for the R in this new series naming convention).
.
There's also every reason to believe Canon would consider using a SMALLER hotshoe mount... because for serious photographers using newer Canon RT flashes (and remote RT series transmitters), they can simply mount a new (yet unseen/leaked) R-Transmitter to the new hotshoe to trigger any existing RT flash PLUS Canon get to sell you a new range of yet-to-be disclosed flashes that are smaller but just as powerful as previous versions. Remember that Canon are now given the opportunity to redesign an entirely new series of camera. It's not impossible for them to consider a new Flash Mount that is smaller. Although the size at the moment ought to be the same as the ones on the EF-M cameras... which is a standard size for a hotshoe these days

thunder storm said:

Do you see any downsides beside the price and the future of your cats?

Click to expand...

Yes, there will always be downsides. My oldest cat is going blind and complains every 20 minutes that he wants to sit on my lap.
.
But for Canon, I suspect they know they've got to recoup money for their investors and shareholders and that means charging a lot of money. I have a feeling we may see a second model shortly after (two FF Canon mirrorless were slated) and this will be a cheaper model with likely crippled features at a slightly lower price. I think that there's a possibility they are introducing a smaller Hotshoe mount but that's very random speculation. The poorly Photoshop posted earlier in this thread implies someone who put it together didn't scale the items properly OR there's a smaller hotshoe on the new model.
.
The switch on the side of the 50mmL lens appears to be a likely I.S. switch but since this was not leaked in the specs, it's possible that it is a focus-limiter switch. No idea until Sept 5. But that lens really doesn't need a focus limiter.
.
Canon are always cramming new batteries in new cameras so if the leaks of the traditional battery being used are true, it's a good move. But they'll charge a lot for their new grip extender and that will suck somewhat.
.
I can see people saying the M-series is "dead" or that Canon will no longer support it... but I don't see that at all. Canon are selling plenty of APS-C mirrorless cameras and they can produce them quite cheaply now. I think we need to wait a few days to see if the new FF mirrorless will support EF-M lenses but I don't see any problem if it doesn't. They'll just bleed out more ER lenses and the EF lenses clearly mount with an adapter. That just leaves the EF-M lenses. And Canon have slowly introduced those to us without moving quick enough to announce new lenses. I suspect part of the reason for this is because they know users can use an adapter to mount just about any darned lens to the EOS M cameras as they might care to. And I think they've been doing a lot of planning lately. The last we heard from Canon, they acknowledged that they needed to introduce more lenses to make a more serious commitment to the EF-M range. I have every confidence that they'll continue on this path and the saving grace would be to release the rumored EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM lens... the Rumor which supposedly "confirmed due to the source" came from the very same company now leaking the EOS R camera today.
.
There's a lot going on at the moment with this leak. I think we need to wait a few days. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Canon's leaks from Nokishita tend to be just a few days before an official statement takes place and merely days after a competitor announces something... which makes me wonder if that source is operating on Canon's behalf by proxy to limit the impact of rival's products. That may not be the case but I'm skeptical. In the past, leaks occurred when manuals and accessories were being printed or manufactured... and yet these guys have a pipeline to the good gossip. Just watch, the quality of images and leaked details should increase over the next few days before an official announcement is made.
.


To the Salt Mines?

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

jwilliams said:

New mount looks like no way to use M lenses. Oh well, not that many anyway. This is a sure sign that Canon thinks of M as lower end amateur and it will remain that way. The message is go FF if you want any serious lenses.

--
Jonathan

Click to expand...

I mean most users aren't going to be that interested in using crop lenses on a FF camera are they? the issue is more than you can't use the use FF lenses on the crop camera.

Honestly short term I don't think its that relevant as people using EF lenses on the new camera is obviously a far bigger deal and there aren't even any RF tele lenses people might want to buy to use on an EOS-M.

Long term though it doesn't really seem ideal does it? I spose what you might argue is that long term Canon and Nikon might move entirely to FF if costs carry on coming down and you'll just have a FF RF mount camera as an entry level body.

fino_nyc said:

jwilliams said:

New mount looks like no way to use M lenses. Oh well, not that many anyway. This is a sure sign that Canon thinks of M as lower end amateur and it will remain that way. The message is go FF if you want any serious lenses.

Click to expand...

That’s correct. Only the other way around - new M mount adapter for R lenses.

Click to expand...

The flange mount for R is 20mm and the M mount is 18mm. Not a lot of room to adapt R lens onto M bodies. I be interested to see what adapter they have.

Maybe it will be a simple adapter like the M42 to EF rings you can buy with pass through electronics.

MoreorLess said:

jwilliams said:

New mount looks like no way to use M lenses. Oh well, not that many anyway. This is a sure sign that Canon thinks of M as lower end amateur and it will remain that way. The message is go FF if you want any serious lenses.

Click to expand...

I mean most users aren't going to be that interested in using crop lenses on a FF camera are they? the issue is more than you can't use the use FF lenses on the crop camera.

Honestly short term I don't think its that relevant as people using EF lenses on the new camera is obviously a far bigger deal and there aren't even any RF tele lenses people might want to buy to use on an EOS-M.

Long term though it doesn't really seem ideal does it? I spose what you might argue is that long term Canon and Nikon might move entirely to FF if costs carry on coming down and you'll just have a FF RF mount camera as an entry level body.

Click to expand...

I see APS-C and FF as two very different kinds of fruit.... I can't even imagine Canon abandoning APS-C because the sensor is cheap enough to produce at a considerable profit and yet it offers many benefits in size, weight and price when installed into a body. If Canon were seriously considering eliminating APS-C they'd start with DSLR buy ending future productions. With Full Frame sensor wafer production, the costs for manufacture are very high because the same wafer that produces 8 Full Frame sensors can be cut into dozens (hundreds?) of smaller sensors for other types of cameras. A few random grains of microscopic dust can ruin an entire wafer when FF sensors are being made... and yet if smaller sensors are being produces on the same wafer, the same few grains of dust simply ruin a few chips but not the whole batch. Even in the clean rooms, minute grains of dust large enough to cause havoc are relatively common. Defects hold up production quotas and the cost of manufacture is much higher for larger wafers.
.
Sure costs are coming down but there's a limit to cost reduction when new technology and quality manufacturing is involved.
.
I certainly agree that people won't likely want to use FF lenses on the APS-C camera although it will almost certainly be possible and i imagine Canon will enable it with a selective adapter. Right now we like to use EF lenses on our EOS M cameras and they perform exactly the same as though they were on APS-C DSLRs... so yes, I believe there may be people wanting to try these new digital-style lenses on their EOS-M cameras. I would.
.
All the manufacturers know that Mirrorless is the future of digital photography. They will have to support the two best sensors on their respective platforms. Canon KNOWS that not everyone needs to (nor can they afford to) buy a $3000+ camera body with associated expensive L-series lenses. They also know they can continue to sell mirrorless APS-C cameras at a much more attractive price. Both take similar quality images. Both have benefits relating to focal length. There's no way they'd abandon APS-C mirrorless.... that's 'crazy talk'.
.
The EOS-M series is quite lucrative for Canon or they would not have bothered to release several recent models. I see the two departments of development for mirrorless at Canon to be working independently from one another. Perhaps someone should write a letter to Canon and ask them for a comment if there's no further information given at the official EOS R announcement shortly. APS-C is the perfect size for a palm-sized ICL camera.
.
As more people reject real cameras in favor of cellphones with "inbuilt smart cameras" that can generate artificial bokeh etc, expect camera prices to rise slightly to cover projected losses. But DSLR is projected to be dead in about 5 years and I'm inclined to believe that projection. The EOS R is and EOS M use new lenses that take advantage of both optical and electronic miniaturization. Even now, the M-series is seriously worth embracing.

Thanks. When I first saw that name, I thought (Leica) M; (Leica) R!

Ben Herrmann said:

Wow - that changes everything for me. If that R is almost as large as a DSLR (again, using the hot shoe size as an example), then that nixes my interest.

Click to expand...

Ben - look at the sizes mentioned in the leak. Not much taller than the M5 and a tad wider (I measured it against mine). Official spec for the M5 is 89.5mm x 115.6. So the R is 8.5mm taller and 2.4cm wider. Not a lot (in my opinion)

The 6D is 110.5 tall and 144 wide. So the R is 1.24cm less tall and 8mm less wide

Alan

Marco Nero said:

thunder storm said:

Do you see any downsides beside the price and the future of your cats?

Click to expand...

Yes, there will always be downsides. My oldest cat is going blind and complains every 20 minutes that he wants to sit on my lap.
.
But for Canon,

Click to expand...

I meanth downsides for customers of cameras.

Marco, It's tricky to get the WB right in a scene containing a black, a gray, and a white cat, isn't it?

Gesture said:

Thanks. When I first saw that name, I thought (Leica) M; (Leica) R!

Click to expand...

Stop it right there. I am not going to pay Leica price for Canon R