I think a Panasonic FF makes perfect sense... not the death of m43!

Yannis1976 · Sep 1, 2018

eques said:
Kevin Barrett said:

FF Mirrorless is the HOTTEST segment in the ILC market and Panasonic is well positioned to take on Sony. It would be stupid not to have a contender in this space.

Click to expand...

If it were just Sony, I'd agree. but there is Nikon Z now and soon Canon.

Panasonic can, of course, develop the technology, the recent models show this. but I doubt, Panasonic can rival names like Nikon and Canon, and this is certainly a necessity for the enthusiast market.

eques said:

I'm hopeful for a FF version of the G9 and GH series. That would be a lovely first and "hard to ignore" entrant.

Click to expand...

Right, but it is not only about technology, but psychology. Olympus would have an easier start, but still a difficult one, when enterering the ring with Nikon, Canon and Sony.

I still have doubts about Sony being such a strong brand among pros where Canikon rules...

eques said:
eques said:

Just like anything else, it will take time to ramp up their lens line-up, but I hope they're smart and introduce this new camera family with several quality lenses that are beyond kit lens quality. Added plus, is if they add phase detect AF. one hopes that they've learned their lesson here.

A move to FF frees up Panasonic to focus their m43 resources on smaller, capable, compact cameras. Looks like a win-win for Panasonic fans and soon to be Panasonic fans.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Panasonic will have to focus on FF, and M43 will be more or less forgotten. Look at the A6xxx series of Sony and their APSc lenses. The same will happen to M43. M43 is a "matured" system, but this means, there is not much to be gained there any more.

Would be good to know the market spaces of the total camera market. For example what is the percentage of the Pros willing/needing to spend >3-5k$ for a FF camera? I think the enthusiasts/hobbyists/amateurs will still benefit from the smaller format cameras such as the m43, unless mobile phones advance that much that make even the 1"/m43 sensors obsolete.

eques said:
eques said:

Regardless, it's great to see Panasonic not just sit on the sidelines. However, I do hope they jump in with both feet.

Click to expand...

They have to, to be successfull. But the money spent on the FF R&D will be missing for M43. M43 won't be dead in 5 years, but there won't be much development any more and it will dry out.

Yes but as you said its already a mature system, so there's not much missing from m43 and maybe they will be able to transfer some technology/best practices from FF to m43.

eques said:
Peter

Yannis1976 · Sep 1, 2018

Tommi K1 said:
Kevin Barrett said:

FF Mirrorless is the HOTTEST segment in the ILC market and Panasonic is well positioned to take on Sony.

Click to expand...

FF market is the MINOR LEAGUE in camera business. It is the most hyped, but least sold.

The market share of the FF is about 10-15% between manufacturers compared to all other ILC they do. The clear #1 is the APS-C among Canon, Nikon and Sony.

Even Nikon sells more D3x00 cameras than Canon, Nikon and Sony does sell FF together. And talking about the amounts that Canon sells APS-C cameras? Hah.... Welcome to major league!

In the camera business, it is done on cheap APS-C cameras, exactly like a D3400 or 1300D and such.

FF is just like selling a Audi A9, BMW 8th series, Volvo S90 and so on. You don't sell those in masses, you sell everything else in expense of those.

FF is what you pay more for its name than for what you get.

Market share and volume sales is one factor. Another very important factor is the actual gross profit of each market space. So if this 10% volume generates the 80% of their camera gross profit then you can understand where they need to focus. Another important thing is that the consumers identity is changing...

Have you noticed that in every consumer goods category, companies are focusing in the upper market? There is a reason behind:

Middle class is shrinking globally and now we have more reach, more poor people and less middle class consumers.

jwilliams · Sep 1, 2018

arbux said:
jwilliams said:

Kevin Barrett said:

A move to FF frees up Panasonic to focus their m43 resources on smaller, capable, compact cameras. Looks like a win-win for Panasonic fans and soon to be Panasonic fans.

Click to expand...

Although Panasonic is a large enough company to keep development going on 2 different systems, I just don't see it happening long term. My guess is that m43 will become primarily a video system. We'll see future cameras like the GH series, but we may have already seen the last of the still oriented cameras produced

Click to expand...

Not sure if anyone ever had any issues taking pictures with gh series.

This whole " video oriented" crap is invention of olympus fanboys. Panasonic is as good still camera as best of olhmpus, but can also do great vodeo. How this was made into a problem is beyond me.

Video oriented cameras are by necessity bigger. They need to be for heat dissipation issues. The smallest m43 Panasonics have already disappeared. The GM has been long gone. Haven't seen the GX850 for a long time either. Probably dead also.

m43 was supposed to be about compact cameras. Small camera size does not go along with high end video.

Also the GH series have nose bleed prices. I don't want to pay high prices for video features I could care less about and never use.

arbux said:
arbux said:

. They are already quietly killing off all the older models.

Click to expand...

Unheard of. Killing older models without dedicated advertisements.

Just pointing something out you may have missed.

arbux said:
arbux said:

Look at B&H and see how many m43 cameras there are for sale.

Click to expand...

Trevor Carpenter · Sep 1, 2018

jwilliams said:
m43 was supposed to be about compact cameras.

When will people stop saying this. No it wasn't. An m4/3s system has the ability to make smaller cameras and lens but that isn't it's reason to exist. One of the biggest advantage of m4/3s is to be able to carry a GH5 and a GM1 and share the lenses. No other system comes close.

Trebor1 · Sep 1, 2018

Kevin Barrett said:
FF Mirrorless is the HOTTEST segment in the ILC market and Panasonic is well positioned to take on Sony. It would be stupid not to have a contender in this space.

I'm hopeful for a FF version of the G9 and GH series. That would be a lovely first and "hard to ignore" entrant. Just like anything else, it will take time to ramp up their lens line-up, but I hope they're smart and introduce this new camera family with several quality lenses that are beyond kit lens quality. Added plus, is if they add phase detect AF. one hopes that they've learned their lesson here.

A move to FF frees up Panasonic to focus their m43 resources on smaller, capable, compact cameras. Looks like a win-win for Panasonic fans and soon to be Panasonic fans.

Regardless, it's great to see Panasonic not just sit on the sidelines. However, I do hope they jump in with both feet.

There is a large gap between m43 and FF that isn't fully addressed by APS-C. The obvious starting point is half-frame: preserving the 4:3 aspect ratio and giving the equivalence police less to carp about - exactly 1 stop difference relative to FF if the full area of each sensor is utilised. A 1.44X crop factor relative to FF

There would be significant advantages for both still photography and video over m43 but at significantly lower cost than FF. But thinking outside the box, there are many other options:

1: 24 mm x 24 mm sensor to allow variable aspect ratios from square - 4:3, that fully use the 30mm image circle of half-frame and doesn't require the camera to be rotated between portrait and landscape shots. Like a mini Hasselblad.

For those with a favourite legacy FF lens then there could be a bonus mode of using the full 24 mm x 24mm sensor area for those really fond of square images - no disadvantage relative to FF, in this particular case.

2: A 21 mm x 24 mm sensor allows aspect ratios anywhere from square to 4:3 images, in landscape format without losing any pixels, relative to half-frame (slight gain actually with the less elongated rectangular formats 5:4, 6:5, 9:7 etc.) Sensor cost lower than that of the 24mm x 24mm option but would the increased wafer yield, compared to square, be sufficiently tempting to manufacturers?

3: Going larger than half-frame, based loosely on APS-H but with a native 4:3 aspect ratio, such as a 21mm x 28 mm sensor, with a 35mm image-circle and 1.236 X crop relative to FF. A Variable aspect ratio sensor such as a 25 mm x 28 mm would allow for square to 4:3 aspect ratio photographs, as in case 2.

jwilliams · Sep 1, 2018

Trevor Carpenter said:
jwilliams said:

m43 was supposed to be about compact cameras.

Click to expand...

When will people stop saying this. No it wasn't. An m4/3s system has the ability to make smaller cameras and lens but that isn't it's reason to exist. One of the biggest advantage of m4/3s is to be able to carry a GH5 and a GM1 and share the lenses. No other system comes close.

the GM1 doesn't exist anymore. So I guess you would have to agree that they have forgotten about half of their original mission. Maybe somebody at Panny and Oly didn't get the memo about the smaller side of the system.

--
Jonathan

Trevor Carpenter · Sep 1, 2018

jwilliams said:
Trevor Carpenter said:

jwilliams said:

m43 was supposed to be about compact cameras.

Click to expand...

When will people stop saying this. No it wasn't. An m4/3s system has the ability to make smaller cameras and lens but that isn't it's reason to exist. One of the biggest advantage of m4/3s is to be able to carry a GH5 and a GM1 and share the lenses. No other system comes close.

Click to expand...

the GM1 doesn't exist anymore. So I guess you would have to agree that they have forgotten about half of their original mission. Maybe somebody at Panny and Oly didn't get the memo about the smaller side of the system.

007peter · Sep 1, 2018

eques said:
eques said:

007peter wrote: A FF Panasonic would address this major weakness. Bravo Panasonic for recognizing the need to stay competitive. Now Panasonic can charge beyond $2000 without making excuses for it IQ problem with smaller sensor anymore.

Click to expand...

Right, except it will be 3000+. Wise Panasonic, indeed.

Sarcastism aside, we have to recognized the reality. Panasonic was charging

$2500 for Panasonic Gh5(S) with 1/4 m43 sensor BAD VALUE (imho)
$3000 for 8k Panasonic Gh6 with Fullframe is more than justified

Panasonic is forced to reduce Gh5(S) by whopping $500! to $1999 in less than 3 months. Sony A7-III (FF) for $2000 with amazing lowlight video and amazing battery life is a wake up call to Panasonic.

As much as I like Gh5(S), I won't pay $1999 when I can buy a superior Sony A7-III for the same price. That is the dilemma Panasonic is in, that is why Panasonic NEED to go FF or DIED. In today's 2018 market, you cannot charge $2000 for a M43 sensor. Its death on arrival, as the drastic $500 price drop on Gh5(S) is showing. The camera is NOT even moving @current $1999 price, further price drop will be needed.

The day of Overcharging users above $1700 for tiny APS-C or M43 sensor are OVER

Now that we have 4 FF Mirrorless competitor

Canon FF Mirrorless (EOS-R, $1900)
Nikon FF Mirrorless (Z6, $2000)
Sony FF Mirrorless (A7-III $2000)
and soon Panasonic FF mirrorless

Price will surely drop on as FF competition intensify with even more Upcoming Consumer Level FF mirrorless. This will place even more Price Pressure ↓ on expensive M43 and APS-C (Fuji and Sony A6xxxx) alike. As of today, I would NOT pay more than $1000 for any M43 camera.

cameron2 · Sep 1, 2018

jwilliams said:
eques said:

They have to, to be successfull. But the money spent on the FF R&D will be missing for M43. M43 won't be dead in 5 years, but there won't be much development any more and it will dry out.

Peter

Click to expand...

withering on the vine so to speak. Sadly.

Sky is falling. News at 11.

Seriously, where do you depressed clowns come from?

JaKing · Sep 1, 2018

Geez you and Jonathan talk some rubbish.

Ever priced a high class wrist watch? Netsuke? Faberge box?

I thought not ...

Wheat and wool are purchased by the kilogram. I was unaware that cameras, lenses or other finely engineered goods were costed and priced that way ...

Jon555 · Sep 2, 2018

007peter said:
eques said:

007peter said:

007peter wrote: A FF Panasonic would address this major weakness. Bravo Panasonic for recognizing the need to stay competitive. Now Panasonic can charge beyond $2000 without making excuses for it IQ problem with smaller sensor anymore.

Click to expand...

Right, except it will be 3000+. Wise Panasonic, indeed.

Click to expand...

Sarcastism aside, we have to recognized the reality. Panasonic was charging

$2500 for Panasonic Gh5(S) with 1/4 m43 sensor BAD VALUE (imho)

$3000 for 8k Panasonic Gh6 with Fullframe is more than justified

Panasonic is forced to reduce Gh5(S) by whopping $500! to $1999 in less than 3 months. Sony A7-III (FF) for $2000 with amazing lowlight video and amazing battery life is a wake up call to Panasonic.

The GH cameras have always had great battery life. The A7III is even better but both are ahead of all other mirrorless (with different battery packs).

007peter said:
As much as I like Gh5(S), I won't pay $1999 when I can buy a superior Sony A7-III for the same price. That is the dilemma Panasonic is in, that is why Panasonic NEED to go FF or DIED. In today's 2018 market, you cannot charge $2000 for a M43 sensor. Its death on arrival, as the drastic $500 price drop on Gh5(S) is showing. The camera is NOT even moving @current $1999 price, further price drop will be needed.

How are any of the Sony's superior as none of them do 10-bit or 422 internally which you really need for log recording (you have a good chance of regretting using log on 8-bit). You also get 5k video (which they call 6k) for hi-res anamorphic shooting. Now the A7sIII might be interesting when it rolls up (allegedly towards the year end).

007peter said:
The day of Overcharging users above $1700 for tiny APS-C or M43 sensor are OVER

Now that we have 4 FF Mirrorless competitor

Canon FF Mirrorless (EOS-R, $1900)

Nikon FF Mirrorless (Z6, $2000)

Sony FF Mirrorless (A7-III $2000)

and soon Panasonic FF mirrorless

Price will surely drop on as FF competition intensify with even more Upcoming Consumer Level FF mirrorless. This will place even more Price Pressure ↓ on expensive M43 and APS-C (Fuji and Sony A6xxxx) alike. As of today, I would NOT pay more than $1000 for any M43 camera.

Kalin · Sep 2, 2018

JaKing said:
Geez you and Jonathan talk some rubbish.

Ever priced a high class wrist watch? Netsuke? Faberge box?

I thought not ...

Wheat and wool are purchased by the kilogram. I was unaware that cameras, lenses or other finely engineered goods were costed and priced that way ..

High-class watches are mostly priced based on the movement with things like gold and diamonds obviously extra.

We can safely assume a GH5S isn't made of gold. And its movement, i.e. its sensor, is an inferior one to the FF guys'. So, using the watch pricing strategy, it should be much cheaper.

The difference in the pricing of 1 kg of coarse, crappy wool vs the nicest vicuna is enormous. Again, m43 suffers; vicuna it ain't. Different metrics, same result.

DavidMillier · Sep 2, 2018

So what about all those people who bought m4/3 for the compactness and lightweight system rather than the high ISO?

I use my cameras at base ISO 99% of the time and I have no intention of ever being swayed by ISO 12500 or whatever. I am very conscious of the size and weight (which is why I love the 35-100 pancake for example and have no interest in the high end m4/3 lenses).

There is nothing wrong with 35mm format or the larger full frame + formats but they are not ever going to provide telezooms that are 2 inches long and weight 200g are they?

007peter said:
Thank God for wise people in Panasonic management team. Unlike the hardcore M43 fanboys (fighting against the FF reality), its refreshing seeing a company management proving its own fanboys wrong.

Going FF address the Fundamental Issues against M43:

Poor High ISO Still

Poor High ISO Video

Lack of Bokeh Control

A fullframe Panasonic would have effectively have low to Weakness:

Panasonic already have IBIS

Panasonic already have good AF

Panasonic already have the best 4K Video without overheating

Panasonic already have good battery life (FF might shorten it somewhat)

Unlike still photography, you can't rely on ~~FLASH~~ when shooting continuous stream of video. If lighting is POOR, then you will just have to take the noisy video or upgrade to a Sony A7(S) for lowlight shooting.

I've seen many of my Ex-Panasonic Gh2/Gh4 friends forcing to upgrade to Sony for its lowlight filming superiority. They hate sony, they hate sony menu, they hate sony contro, but you can't deny the superiority of Sony lowlight video.

A FF Panasonic would address this major weakness. Bravo Panasonic for recognizing the need to stay competitive. Now Panasonic can charge beyond $2000 without making excuses for it IQ problem with smaller sensor anymore.

--
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/ (old)
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)

Samaistuin · Sep 2, 2018

G L said:
I really do not think it will hurt m43. The other manufacturer have also a second system, APSC.

Yes, and it just so happens that this APS-C system is neglected by Sony, Nikon, Canon in favour of their FF system.

petreluk · Sep 2, 2018

007peter said:
eques said:

007peter said:

007peter wrote: A FF Panasonic would address this major weakness. Bravo Panasonic for recognizing the need to stay competitive. Now Panasonic can charge beyond $2000 without making excuses for it IQ problem with smaller sensor anymore.

Click to expand...

Right, except it will be 3000+. Wise Panasonic, indeed.

Click to expand...

Sarcastism aside, we have to recognized the reality. Panasonic was charging

$2500 for Panasonic Gh5(S) with 1/4 m43 sensor BAD VALUE (imho)

$3000 for 8k Panasonic Gh6 with Fullframe is more than justified

Panasonic is forced to reduce Gh5(S) by whopping $500! to $1999 in less than 3 months. Sony A7-III (FF) for $2000 with amazing lowlight video and amazing battery life is a wake up call to Panasonic.

As much as I like Gh5(S), I won't pay $1999 when I can buy a superior Sony A7-III for the same price. That is the dilemma Panasonic is in, that is why Panasonic NEED to go FF or DIED. In today's 2018 market, you cannot charge $2000 for a M43 sensor. Its death on arrival, as the drastic $500 price drop on Gh5(S) is showing. The camera is NOT even moving @current $1999 price, further price drop will be needed.

The day of Overcharging users above $1700 for tiny APS-C or M43 sensor are OVER

Now that we have 4 FF Mirrorless competitor

Canon FF Mirrorless (EOS-R, $1900)

Nikon FF Mirrorless (Z6, $2000)

Sony FF Mirrorless (A7-III $2000)

and soon Panasonic FF mirrorless

Price will surely drop on as FF competition intensify with even more Upcoming Consumer Level FF mirrorless. This will place even more Price Pressure ↓ on expensive M43 and APS-C (Fuji and Sony A6xxxx) alike. As of today, I would NOT pay more than $1000 for any M43 camera.

Thanks for that. It seems the right reading.

In retrospect there was a 2-3 year window between the arrival of serious quad-core processing grunt enabling many features and tricks and the arrival of $2K FF mirrorless cameras with that processing power now on board.

Olympus were astute in taking full advantage with the E-M1 Mark II, Panny less to with the G9. However, that window is now closing so time to move on. Olympus are welcome to introduce a new M43 camera for $2K or more but if they do then chances are other brands will be welcoming a lot of former Olympus users.

I’d guess Oly too will make their high end FF and refocus what they do on M43. M43 is super for telephotos and has many strong advantages for travel, portability, lens line-up, etc. So there is no need to panic, just an opportunity to be more discriminating about what one uses for which tasks. I’m looking forward to it all. There is room for both formats for the foreseeable future.

Luis Gabriel Photography · Sep 2, 2018

Yannis1976 said:
eques said:

Kevin Barrett said:

FF Mirrorless is the HOTTEST segment in the ILC market and Panasonic is well positioned to take on Sony. It would be stupid not to have a contender in this space.

Click to expand...

If it were just Sony, I'd agree. but there is Nikon Z now and soon Canon.

Panasonic can, of course, develop the technology, the recent models show this. but I doubt, Panasonic can rival names like Nikon and Canon, and this is certainly a necessity for the enthusiast market.

Yannis1976 said:

I'm hopeful for a FF version of the G9 and GH series. That would be a lovely first and "hard to ignore" entrant.

Click to expand...

Right, but it is not only about technology, but psychology. Olympus would have an easier start, but still a difficult one, when enterering the ring with Nikon, Canon and Sony.

Click to expand...

I still have doubts about Sony being such a strong brand among pros where Canikon rules.

OH make no mistake, it is strong and keeps getting stronger.

As far as Panasonic FF, I am actually intrigued if they can keep the Ibis performance and 4kp60. Kind of a G9 but with Sony quality FF sensor and some version of eye af. Of course, lenses matter a LOT but a camera like that would be really nice at least for me.

JaKing · Sep 2, 2018

Methinks that you seriously missed my point ... ;-) .

JaKing · Sep 2, 2018

The E-M1 MkII has two quad core CPUs ... just FYI.

keepfocused · Sep 2, 2018

And are they fully utilized? If not, will they ever be? Hmm......Hope so?

JaKing · Sep 2, 2018

keepfocused said:
And are they fully utilized? If not, will they ever be? Hmm......Hope so?

Please define "fully utilized" ...

Is your computer's CPU "fully utilized"?

I think a Panasonic FF makes perfect sense... not the death of m43!

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Forum Enthusiast

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Enthusiast

Veteran Member

Similar threads

Keyboard shortcuts