Snap Out of It!

ONE XQD slot is more reliable than 2 SD slots.

XQD is far more robust and reliable than SD. You're literally more likely to have BOTH SD cards fail in a Sony vs. the XQD in the Nikon D850 or Z camera.

One of the primary selling points of XQD (beyond speed) is that it's practically bulletproof compared to SD.

Have a great weekend!

Rob
Have you found any objective reliability specs such as MTBF. I looked and didn't find anything.
MTBF is probably not an applicable measure, and would be deceptive anyway.

Remember, the fretting here is not about any and all forms of card failure: it is about the specific type of failure where the card allows the images to be written on it, but then fails in such a manner that those images cannot be read off it. Plus, cannot be recovered with recovery software.

It does not include many, many other failure modes that stop the camera recognising the card, because then it says 'No card" and you put another one in, and no photos lost.

So what we need to find is the frequency of occurrence of the one, specific failure type that irrecoverably loses images after they have been taken. You are not going to find that, not only because it is such a small category of sub-failure, but because most of the situations that could lead to it involve thoughtless or abusive card management by the user. You don't want to count those modes either.

Of course, if you are actually a thoughtless and abusive card manager while working professionally for paying clients, then, firstly, you are disrespecting your clients and probably should find other employment for their sake, and secondly, good luck with a two-slot camera because there are plenty of ways you can wreck both cards at the same time.

If your preferred model of camera for paid work happens to have only one slot, then if you:
  • buy top quality cards from a reputable supplier;
  • replace them every two years or so, or whenever an event occurs that concerns you;
  • when you buy a new card, before first time used, test each card with a full read-write cycle and check for errors (eliminating the risk of the card being faulty upon purchase, the most likely cause of failure other than abuse);
  • never modify the card's contents off-camera and re-insert and keep shooting -- always reformat if you modify the contents off-camera;
  • other general good practice and care;
  • (optional, if you can't help fretting) change card several times during a paid session and/or use a wireless transmitter to send photos in real time to off-camera storage;
....then you can proceed with confidence that irrecoverable loss of images due to good-practice card failure is one of the least likely ways that you could lose images (at least several of your lifetimes of weekly paid gigs per failure), and you should be fretting about all the other things that could go wrong and ruin the session's images.

cheers
Thanks. I agree with your commentary. MTBF by itself can be very misleading and is almost always misinterpreted, but a relative comparison might be somewhat of an indicator and I have not seen any objective data. That said, the improved physical attributes look positive.
Nope. See what happened to us just a few weeks ago here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4304727?page=1
I don't see how you think you have refuted the main points. Even if you had asserted that it was good practice for the whole life of the card, even if you assert it was top quality card from trusted source, even if you assert it was properly tested and checked for errors before first-time use, even if you assert it was replaced after any events of concern, all well and good, but in the end we will never know what that card had been through. Plus, it was not XQD, plus, it was a dual slot camera! Finally, you have not taken it to a professional recovery service, AFAICT.

Nobody is asserting the failure rate is zero. But you have to understand the real odds, instead of the human behaviour of overreacting to rare events and changing all future behaviours because of them. I understand you will overreact -- it's normal to do so -- but rushing onto the internet to scare people into thinking the odds are much higher than reality is not promoting good decisions.

Even in the situation you described, there was more than one person covering the wedding and the gig wasn't ruined. Plus, in my last dot point there are other strategies for worry management.

cheers
Put in proper context, you had replied to a post that claimed that "best practises" will keep you safe from losing important images or files when using a single card. It wasn't XQD specific, and the truth is, nobody truly does know the reliability yet of xqd. I was simply pointing out that even with your "best practices" we would have lost wedding files permanently, but it was the dual media feature alone that saved us.
I understand it's a long thread and you likely didn't want read it in its entirety. The bottom line; dual media saved us last month. It works. To believe that a single media slot of any form is safer than dual media is simply asinine. There's no reason to defend Nikon's decision other than out of sheer brand loyalty. And for others to begin rolling the old film days onto the conversation is even more ridiculous; those days are behind us, why go back?
 
XQD is far more robust and reliable than SD. You're literally more likely to have BOTH SD cards fail in a Sony vs. the XQD in the Nikon D850 or Z camera.
What is your source, please.
Sony and Nikon both stated that the XQD card format is more robust and reliable.

It's not a secret.

But here's what I was told by Nikon last year: The XQD format is 5 times more durable than SD.

I'll take a much faster single tougher XQD over 2 slower more failure prone SD cards any day.
Hang on, lets put some numbers on this.

You say the XQD is 5 times more robust and reliable - lets go further than that. lets say that there is a 1 in a million chance of an XQD failure, but rather than saying there is a 1 in 200,000 chance of an SD failure, lets say that chances of failure in an SD card are 1 in 10,000 (ie 100 times more likely than an XQD failure).

The chances that both SD cards will fail at the same time is 10,000 x 10,000 which comes out to 100,000,000... ie even if the SD card is 100 times more likely to fail, the odds on 2 failures at the same time is 100 times less.
I do think the Z7 should have had a 2nd slot of some kind,
..and I'm sure that Nikon had better reasons for omitting one than that they didn't have space.
but the Z6 is superior to a Sony a7III with two SD slots.
I think we should wait for some reviews of real world production cameras before we make such declarations.
XQD is awesome.
I have no doubt. It is certainly very fast, but even at 12 fps, the Z6 only generates less than 360MB/s of data, so a 300MB/s UHS-II U3 Sandisk SD card would not have been out of its class.
 
Call for data seems to go unheard. Lots of claims being made but no data on bit error rates, noise margins, signal integrity tests or documented data integrity tests.

So for data reliability I will assume they are equal which means that two cards will always provide more data reliability than one.

Steve W.
 
Actually Nikon did not need to bother with xqd card in a camera where buffer fills out in 18 shots. Even first generation sd card would have been sufficient
 
Actually Nikon did not need to bother with xqd card in a camera where buffer fills out in 18 shots. Even first generation sd card would have been sufficient
That is something that puzzled me - one of the early comments was about filling up the buffer quickly, but with so fast a card it should not be an issue (things only slow down once the buffer fills and the camera is still trying to write to the card) - this suggests to me that this is an area where firmware still needs to be finalised and I would expect the production cameras to benefit from the XQD speed - but they would also benefit almost as much from UHS-2 U3 SD speed.
 
Call for data seems to go unheard. Lots of claims being made but no data on bit error rates, noise margins, signal integrity tests or documented data integrity tests.

So for data reliability I will assume they are equal which means that two cards will always provide more data reliability than one.

Steve W.
 
Someone on FM had an interesting take -- it could be Nikon did this on purpose while they hone the lineup, to keep the pros on the DSLRs (and dual slots) until they're ready to push pro-level mirrorless.
I don’t buy that. If the Z mount is up to the specs for pro use why do something to make it undesirable for pros. If it’s not up to pro use they won’t buy it. Plenty of reasons not to buy the Z without resorting to removing a card slot.
That's just it, I don't think it's up to the pros, yet.

No support system in place yet, no native fast long lenses, and the autofocus seems to be BOTH A) different than pro models and B) less impressive.

Again, things I'm sure Nikon will fix with time.
 
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And I used to walk uphill in the snow to school barefoot.

Going without a backup was acceptable, when there was no solution. Plus I guarantee that many rolls of film were lost or ruined due to improper loads, bad processing, bad film... etc.

These days its unacceptable for a paid professional to use a single card, when there are many camera options with dual card writing.

For a photographer, losing photos could mean a refund and a hit on their reputation, but for your client, its special and important moments that were lost. These are things they trusted photographers to capture. A photographer needs to make sure that they do everything they can(within reason, dual cards fall into this category) to ensure the images are delivered. The photographer owes it to their client.

The images are important, otherwise, people wouldnt pay photographers to take them.
LOL! I know wedding shooters for YEARS. No one has ever asked if the camera had two card slots!
Irrelevant to the discussion because the clients probably don't even know cameras with 2 card slots exist. If the photographer loses all the photos however it's a disaster for photographer and client alike. On the other hand all this really means is this camera may not be the best choice for wedding photographers. For most people however it really doesn't matter.
This is, by far, the funniest post yet!

And of course it's from a Sony guy who's here for what exactly???
I don't know about him but I feel compelled to correct the falsehoods you are bantering about. I'm also curious about any new camera.
The Z6, with so many advantages over the A7rIII, really UPSET the Sony people.
So far I haven't seen many and they were canceled out by possible disadvantages. It's mostly a wash and initial pre production impressions of AF tracking are not as good as the newest Sony E Mount or Nikon's own DSLRs.
"Cancelled out?" How exactly does that work? How do you cancel out a feature?

Z6 advantages:

1) Better Ergonomics
Maybe but that's a matter of opinion. You can't possibly know that at this point in time. My initial unproven impression is it's on a par with Sony E Mount and inferior to Nikon and Canon DSLRs.
Yup...that's why I avoided Sony and shoot pro DSLRs. But the consensus will prove out that the Z cameras are more comfortable and better laid out.

2) Better rear LCD
Z6 does have higher resolution but "much" is a bit over the top. I don't see where that much resolution on that tiny screen helps much.
Try zooming in and you'll see.

3) MUCH Better viewfinder
Same viewfinder as is in the A7Riii and A9 with a tiny bit more magnification.
The Z6 competes with the A7III, not the A7rIII. I would never choose a Z7 or A7rIII over a camera like a D850.

4) Faster FPS
A7Riii is faster, 10 vs 9 FPS without live view and 8 vs 5.5 with live view.
Z6 is 12 FPS.

5) Better video output potential
Potential?
Seriously? Look up the higher specs on the Z6.

6) Modern high speed XQD card
True.

I find your obsession with trying to prove this camera is better than Sony E mount cameras very curious. Before you accuse me of being a Sony apologist, yes I own Sony cameras but none are E Mount. I don't like E Mount cameras, don't own one and don't intend to.

Most of your points above are compared to what E Mount cameras? There are several models available with various capabilities. You also fail to mention the battery life which is much poorer than comparable E Mount cameras.
Hey, why don't you head over to the Sony forum and find my "obsessive" posts on the latest Sony cameras!!! LOL!

There are none. This is the NIKON forum and YOU are a Sony shooter being critical of new Nikon cameras. So who's obsessed??? LOL!

Why not just be honest? Nikon released really nice mirrorless cameras. Period. Are they better or worse than Sony? It's a mix. Both have obvious advantages. But the takeaway is that Nikon has solid mirrorless models that are going to do well, especially the Z6.

It's a big win for Nikon because so many people predicted Nikon wouldn't be competitive. Now they make the top DSLRs and also have great mirrorless models. Sony knows what the Nikon models really are. They know where their aimed, which is where Sony has been aiming and this will hurt them. Canon will also come out swinging and the two biggest entrenched camera makers, who dominate the market, will drive Sony back.

It's inevitable.

Rob
 
Someone on FM had an interesting take -- it could be Nikon did this on purpose while they hone the lineup, to keep the pros on the DSLRs (and dual slots) until they're ready to push pro-level mirrorless.
I don’t buy that. If the Z mount is up to the specs for pro use why do something to make it undesirable for pros. If it’s not up to pro use they won’t buy it. Plenty of reasons not to buy the Z without resorting to removing a card slot.
That's just it, I don't think it's up to the pros, yet.

No support system in place yet, no native fast long lenses, and the autofocus seems to be BOTH A) different than pro models and B) less impressive.

Again, things I'm sure Nikon will fix with time.
I don't see hardly any pros buying a Z7 or A7rIII as a primary camera. We're still not there yet. But....

Many pros will ADD a Z camera to their system. Very few will bother with a Sony going forward. Then Nikon will release a Z camera that is essentially a mirrorless D5 or D6 and that will be the end of the equation.

Many pros, like me, will do what I'm doing and happily add a Z6 to their D500/D5/D850 kits.

Rob
 
Someone on FM had an interesting take -- it could be Nikon did this on purpose while they hone the lineup, to keep the pros on the DSLRs (and dual slots) until they're ready to push pro-level mirrorless.
I don’t buy that. If the Z mount is up to the specs for pro use why do something to make it undesirable for pros. If it’s not up to pro use they won’t buy it. Plenty of reasons not to buy the Z without resorting to removing a card slot.
That's just it, I don't think it's up to the pros, yet.

No support system in place yet, no native fast long lenses, and the autofocus seems to be BOTH A) different than pro models and B) less impressive.

Again, things I'm sure Nikon will fix with time.
I don't see hardly any pros buying a Z7 or A7rIII as a primary camera. We're still not there yet. But....

Many pros will ADD a Z camera to their system. Very few will bother with a Sony going forward. Then Nikon will release a Z camera that is essentially a mirrorless D5 or D6 and that will be the end of the equation.

Many pros, like me, will do what I'm doing and happily add a Z6 to their D500/D5/D850 kits.

Rob
I agree from a Nikon point of view entirely, great additional now, next gen will likely do a sole camera. But having moved from a D850 to an A7Riii as a primary camera, I disagree that the A7Rii isn't there yet. The ii wasn't, but the iii is capable enough (although has its flaws like just about any other camera, with the near exception of the D850 which was just incredible for a DSLR user.)
 
Why not just be honest? Nikon released really nice mirrorless cameras. Period. Are they better or worse than Sony? It's a mix. Both have obvious advantages. But the takeaway is that Nikon has solid mirrorless models that are going to do well, especially the Z6.
Thank to VBLondon's post / Thom Hogan, I saw the light :-)

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61549623

I think Nikon may have held back on purpose. Enthusiasts is where the market is. The Z6/7 might refer to D6x0/D750. These are the cameras that "need" un update. A future Z8/9 could become the mirrorless counterparts of the D8x0/Sony A9. They very obviously have a plan, which we will only come to understand with time passing by.

Now, where is that boat of yours? :-) It is time to send those trolls back to where they came from. I can understand now why you needed a bigger one.
 
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Actually Nikon did not need to bother with xqd card in a camera where buffer fills out in 18 shots. Even first generation sd card would have been sufficient
That is something that puzzled me - one of the early comments was about filling up the buffer quickly, but with so fast a card it should not be an issue (things only slow down once the buffer fills and the camera is still trying to write to the card) - this suggests to me that this is an area where firmware still needs to be finalised and I would expect the production cameras to benefit from the XQD speed - but they would also benefit almost as much from UHS-2 U3 SD speed.
Again, the XQD appears to be more reliable than SD. If the camera has a small buffer, a fast card should help mitigate that limitation. Do I have that right?
 
i have only had one issue with the 25 plus sd cards. Just had to do a deep format and it has been fine since. I bought two Sony Professional XQD G Series 64GB cards and had to get one replaced after a week of use in my D500. So, I have had a 50% failure rate with XQD cards so far.
I have had an almost identical experience with XQD cards. No problems with SD and micro SD cards but I have only bought 2 XQD cards and one went bad after two weeks of use. Amazon replaced the Sony card and I have not had issues with the replacement yet. So far I have a 33% failure rate with XQD cards. Much worse than SD.
 
i have only had one issue with the 25 plus sd cards. Just had to do a deep format and it has been fine since. I bought two Sony Professional XQD G Series 64GB cards and had to get one replaced after a week of use in my D500. So, I have had a 50% failure rate with XQD cards so far.
I have had an almost identical experience with XQD cards. No problems with SD and micro SD cards but I have only bought 2 XQD cards and one went bad after two weeks of use. Amazon replaced the Sony card and I have not had issues with the replacement yet. So far I have a 33% failure rate with XQD cards. Much worse than SD.
Anecdotal.
 
Actually Nikon did not need to bother with xqd card in a camera where buffer fills out in 18 shots. Even first generation sd card would have been sufficient
That is something that puzzled me - one of the early comments was about filling up the buffer quickly, but with so fast a card it should not be an issue (things only slow down once the buffer fills and the camera is still trying to write to the card) - this suggests to me that this is an area where firmware still needs to be finalised and I would expect the production cameras to benefit from the XQD speed - but they would also benefit almost as much from UHS-2 U3 SD speed.
Again, the XQD appears to be more reliable than SD. If the camera has a small buffer, a fast card should help mitigate that limitation. Do I have that right?
no
 
Actually Nikon did not need to bother with xqd card in a camera where buffer fills out in 18 shots. Even first generation sd card would have been sufficient
That is something that puzzled me - one of the early comments was about filling up the buffer quickly, but with so fast a card it should not be an issue (things only slow down once the buffer fills and the camera is still trying to write to the card) - this suggests to me that this is an area where firmware still needs to be finalised and I would expect the production cameras to benefit from the XQD speed - but they would also benefit almost as much from UHS-2 U3 SD speed.
Again, the XQD appears to be more reliable than SD. If the camera has a small buffer, a fast card should help mitigate that limitation. Do I have that right?
no
Where have I gone astray?
 
i have only had one issue with the 25 plus sd cards. Just had to do a deep format and it has been fine since. I bought two Sony Professional XQD G Series 64GB cards and had to get one replaced after a week of use in my D500. So, I have had a 50% failure rate with XQD cards so far.
I have had an almost identical experience with XQD cards. No problems with SD and micro SD cards but I have only bought 2 XQD cards and one went bad after two weeks of use. Amazon replaced the Sony card and I have not had issues with the replacement yet. So far I have a 33% failure rate with XQD cards. Much worse than SD.
The number of samples is too small to be statistically significant. :-)
 
Someone on FM had an interesting take -- it could be Nikon did this on purpose while they hone the lineup, to keep the pros on the DSLRs (and dual slots) until they're ready to push pro-level mirrorless.
I don’t buy that. If the Z mount is up to the specs for pro use why do something to make it undesirable for pros. If it’s not up to pro use they won’t buy it. Plenty of reasons not to buy the Z without resorting to removing a card slot.
That's just it, I don't think it's up to the pros, yet.

No support system in place yet, no native fast long lenses, and the autofocus seems to be BOTH A) different than pro models and B) less impressive.

Again, things I'm sure Nikon will fix with time.
That's not the point. You suggested Nikon did this (only put in one card slot) on purpose to discourage the pros from using it. That was entirely unnecessary.
 
i have only had one issue with the 25 plus sd cards. Just had to do a deep format and it has been fine since. I bought two Sony Professional XQD G Series 64GB cards and had to get one replaced after a week of use in my D500. So, I have had a 50% failure rate with XQD cards so far.
I have had an almost identical experience with XQD cards. No problems with SD and micro SD cards but I have only bought 2 XQD cards and one went bad after two weeks of use. Amazon replaced the Sony card and I have not had issues with the replacement yet. So far I have a 33% failure rate with XQD cards. Much worse than SD.
Anecdotal.
@ bobabend 'Anecdotal.' Are you calling my a liar? Two people report a problem and you can't handle the facts. Grow up.
 
Someone on FM had an interesting take -- it could be Nikon did this on purpose while they hone the lineup, to keep the pros on the DSLRs (and dual slots) until they're ready to push pro-level mirrorless.
I don’t buy that. If the Z mount is up to the specs for pro use why do something to make it undesirable for pros. If it’s not up to pro use they won’t buy it. Plenty of reasons not to buy the Z without resorting to removing a card slot.
That's just it, I don't think it's up to the pros, yet.

No support system in place yet, no native fast long lenses, and the autofocus seems to be BOTH A) different than pro models and B) less impressive.

Again, things I'm sure Nikon will fix with time.
I don't see hardly any pros buying a Z7 or A7rIII as a primary camera. We're still not there yet. But....

Many pros will ADD a Z camera to their system. Very few will bother with a Sony going forward. Then Nikon will release a Z camera that is essentially a mirrorless D5 or D6 and that will be the end of the equation.

Many pros, like me, will do what I'm doing and happily add a Z6 to their D500/D5/D850 kits.

Rob
I agree from a Nikon point of view entirely, great additional now, next gen will likely do a sole camera. But having moved from a D850 to an A7Riii as a primary camera, I disagree that the A7Rii isn't there yet. The ii wasn't, but the iii is capable enough (although has its flaws like just about any other camera, with the near exception of the D850 which was just incredible for a DSLR user.)
I was "there" when a A7rIII died from overheating. I was also aboard when a lightly splashed A7rIII died while sailing.

A proper professional camera should have a baseline of weatherproofing and ruggedness. The Sony's don't have it. Nikon claims the Z7 and Z6 are built to the same standard as a D850, but I'll need to see that tested before I believe it.

Mirrorless still needs more work and no way would I pick one as a primary camera. But the Z6 is a no-brainer (assuming it tests well) as a 2nd body. It'll also be a huge seller for enthusiasts and non-pro's in general.

Rob
 

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