New Nikon Mirrorless sure looks nice.

Pixnat2 said:

DustyBin said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

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If by introductory price you mean the price at time of launch, why would you compare two technology products launched two years apart?

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I realized maybe it was not clear, but my point was that if Olympus comes next year with their next model at 2200 $, like the em1 mkii introductory price, they will have hard time to sell it.

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People said the same thing when the E-M1 ii was launched. Seems like it did just fine.

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

Click to expand...

I think Olympus and Panasonic will worry about that when Nikon makes a professional mirrorless body that actually has dual card slots, or when XQD can demonstrate itself to be orders of magnitude more reliable than SD cards. The Z6 and Z7 only have a single card slot each. For a lot of wedding/event/journalist pros who prefer the safety of dual card recording, the Z6 and Z7 may simply be too risky to use in professional event work.

mwyyc said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

Click to expand...

I think Olympus and Panasonic will worry about that when Nikon makes a professional mirrorless body that actually has dual card slots, or when XQD can demonstrate itself to be orders of magnitude more reliable than SD cards. The Z6 and Z7 only have a single card slot each. For a lot of wedding/event/journalist pros who prefer the safety of dual card recording, the Z6 and Z7 may simply be too risky to use in professional event work.

Click to expand...

The obvious workaround is to use the WiFi to give continuous backup to a tablet with an EHD in your backpack.

Body size in one thing. The glass is a whole other story...bigger and heavier for FF and more expensive. Just look at Sony.

SpinOne said:

In general though, it seems pretty standard. Other than the brand name, I don't see anything particularly new here.

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Exactly. Is there any obvious advantage over Sony at all (apart for the option to use AF Nikkors)?

007peter said:

This design philosophy reminds me of an Iphone X or Samsung S9 smartphone design of Big Screen/Thin Border.

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More like the other manufacturers than Apple and Samsung...

https://camerasize.com/compact/#795.786,692.352,ha,t

Even the EM1ii, the largest and heaviest mFT camera I was willing to buy, is half a pound lighter with the faste and very-well-regarded Leica 25 f1.4 and much more compact than this giant-throated gambit by Nikon.

It's not just the body, however sexy that may be, One buys interchangeable lens cameras in order to be able to use them with a variety of lenses, and typically takes at least a couple of extra lenses along on a shoot. The size and of those giant mount lenses quickly adds up, especially walking, cycling, hiking or flying/

Okapi001 said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Click to expand...

... and the other has 60 frames/sec, pro-capture, focus stacking, live composit, 80 mp hi-resolution ... I would never trade an E-M1 II for a Z6.

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You forgot dual card slot and better battery life. Those seem to be the biggest complaints about the Z6 and Z7.

Not to mention the lens selection at the moment is quite different (I have to read more reports on ergonomics to see if Z6/Z7 is plagued with similar problems as A7/A7R series when mounting larger diameter lenses).

tt321 said:

bobn2 said:

tt321 said:

bobn2 said:

That's also something of a myth. It's akin to saying no photographer requires sharp lenses, which is a point of view I have seen occasionally here, but not often. The truth is that the improvement in system MTF brought about by a 45MP sensor can be seen even with a normal HD monitor.

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Are you saying that we will be able to detect a difference between the Z6 and Z7 with a 720p monitor, assuming that the photos are developed for optimal display at this resolution in a fair manner?

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'fair' there. Cameras don't have feelings, it doesn't matter if you're 'fair' to them or not. But yes, you will see a difference even with a 720p monitor, just as you would between a low-end kit-lens and an Olympus 'pro' lens, and for the same reasons, an MTF which gives higher contrast even in the spatial frequencies that the mojito can display.

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The word fair has a precise meaning in technical discussions

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I don't think so.

tt321 said:

and it has zero relationship to feelings.

Google, for instance, for 'fair arbiter', 'fair comparisons', etc.

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Explain what it means in a technical context, then. Precisely.

Accipiter_89 said:

But sure, the nikon's photos will look better on big prints above ISO1600

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I would disagree with that. 25-30" prints up to ISO 6400 with identical settings....

Pixnat2 said:

I realized maybe it was not clear, but my point was that if Olympus comes next year with their next model at 2200 $, like the em1 mkii introductory price, they will have hard time to sell it.

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Only for those who are stupid to look cameras by sensor size, instead what the camera/system offers and what IQ you get.

Trying to sell camera by sensor size is like trying to sell a car with top speed of 320kph, over a model with top speed 250kph.

For some that is very important, for most it is not.

Problem in this case is that most have no knowledge of their requirements.... So it is easy to sell even more than they need.

Pixnat2 said:

DustyBin said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

Click to expand...

If by introductory price you mean the price at time of launch, why would you compare two technology products launched two years apart?

Click to expand...

I realized maybe it was not clear, but my point was that if Olympus comes next year with their next model at 2200 $, like the em1 mkii introductory price, they will have hard time to sell it.

Click to expand...

They won't, because by then they'll have some new headlining features to drive excitement in the camera (while excitement for these two cameras have pretty much died down). People said much the same when the E-M1 II launched at $2000 (while A7 II was down to only $1500). However, they didn't have a problem selling at that price anyways.

Of course as the model ages, the price will drop, but this is true of all models (even the FF cameras).

bobn2 said:

mwyyc said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

Click to expand...

I think Olympus and Panasonic will worry about that when Nikon makes a professional mirrorless body that actually has dual card slots, or when XQD can demonstrate itself to be orders of magnitude more reliable than SD cards. The Z6 and Z7 only have a single card slot each. For a lot of wedding/event/journalist pros who prefer the safety of dual card recording, the Z6 and Z7 may simply be too risky to use in professional event work.

Click to expand...

The obvious workaround is to use the WiFi to give continuous backup to a tablet with an EHD in your backpack.

Click to expand...

"Workaround" is a polite word for that arrangement. I'd prefer to call it a "rube goldberg-esque clusterf*** headache-generating kludge". Now a working pro needs to rely on ad-hoc wifi networking, a third-party tablet, and some random manufacturer's harddrive or card reader? No sir. That dog don't hunt. These are expensive cameras aimed at the professional market, where not delivering the product to the client could mean that a mortgage payment or student loan payment isn't made on time. These cameras should have the same tried-and-true dual-slot built-in reliability that Nikon's own pro SLRs have.

Sony's imaging division execs must be breathing a sigh of relief. Nikon released an A7III-killer at A7III prices and an A9-killer at sub-A9-prices and made adapting old lenses easy and cheap, but managed to make the single design decision that would be a dealbreaker for many working pros. Expect future Sony marketing material to emphasize "professional reliability" talking points. The Z6 and Z7 are cameras for wealthy hobbyists. They're not professional tools.

mwyyc said:

The Z6 and Z7 are cameras for wealthy hobbyists. They're not professional tools.

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I am not (and never will be) a professional. I was genuinely surprised, a little while ago, to read an article stating that the most important thing for a pro was backup in the form of a second card-slot, but it made a lot of sense to me. I agree that this is a really, really, odd decision for the price-point of these new Nikons. (It is also, presumably, why the Panny and Oly flagships have dual slots, even though it's overkill for most people who'll buy them.)

mwyyc said:

bobn2 said:

mwyyc said:

Pixnat2 said:

Same size, same weight, both IBIS, both super fast FPS, both weather sealing, both 4K, both super ergonomics with a large grip, and most important same introductory price!

.....and still, one has a sensor 4x larger.

Olympus better think carefully the introductory price of the next model!

Click to expand...

I think Olympus and Panasonic will worry about that when Nikon makes a professional mirrorless body that actually has dual card slots, or when XQD can demonstrate itself to be orders of magnitude more reliable than SD cards. The Z6 and Z7 only have a single card slot each. For a lot of wedding/event/journalist pros who prefer the safety of dual card recording, the Z6 and Z7 may simply be too risky to use in professional event work.

Click to expand...

The obvious workaround is to use the WiFi to give continuous backup to a tablet with an EHD in your backpack.

Click to expand...

"Workaround" is a polite word for that arrangement. I'd prefer to call it a "rube goldberg-esque clusterf*** headache-generating kludge". Now a working pro needs to rely on ad-hoc wifi networking, a third-party tablet, and some random manufacturer's harddrive or card reader? No sir. That dog don't hunt. These are expensive cameras aimed at the professional market,

Click to expand...

Except below you say that they aren't.

mwyyc said:

where not delivering the product to the client could mean that a mortgage payment or student loan payment isn't made on time. These cameras should have the same tried-and-true dual-slot built-in reliability that Nikon's own pro SLRs have.

Sony's imaging division execs must be breathing a sigh of relief. Nikon released an A7III-killer at A7III prices and an A9-killer at sub-A9-prices and made adapting old lenses easy and cheap, but managed to make the single design decision that would be a dealbreaker for many working pros. Expect future Sony marketing material to emphasize "professional reliability" talking points. The Z6 and Z7 are cameras for wealthy hobbyists. They're not professional tools.

Click to expand...

Well, that depends on what the professionals are doing. Many professionals were quite happy with a single card before Canon made it a must-have 'pro' feature with the 1DII. Back in the film days, they never insisted on a dual film chamber.

Still, I suspect you might be right on Nikon's view of them. Where they sit 'professionals' will still be buying the DSLRs. And they have left space in the number scheme for a later higher end model.

But on the "rube goldberg-esque clusterf*** headache-generating kludge" above, whether it's a viable strategy depends on the likely failure rates of the XQD and CFX cards, which should be lower than things like CF. It could even offer you mere security, because even if you have dual card slots, they will be hanging off the same controller (which probably won't be integrated into the SOC if they are high performance cards) so if that bit of electronics goes, you lose both. If you're using WiFi for your backup, that's a completely separate system, and much less likely to fail at the same time. And even if it's only 99% reliable, that decreases the odds of you losing your work 99 times. Somewhere along the line, there is an event that will make you lose the lot, the real question is, how likely it is.

The main reason I left Nikon dSLR and their 1 series was lack of (new) native prime lenses. Oh, I like them to be small, light-weight and affordable too.

Judging from the two new prime lenses, they are all but that.

If I were Nikon, I'd have price both the primes ~$300 to $400 max. to lure in customers. Nikon can milk them dry later on

I have been bitten three times before - the 3rd was Sony e-mount (NEX-5N). I'm staying with what I have today.

P.S. I suspect the 2 prime lenses are weather-sealed - that would explain their size, weight and price.

Searching said:

Not that I am planning to leave Olympus, but FF mirrorless is looking more attractive these days, I still lust on it and maybe it's just stupid to do so.

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They are very attractive to be sure. I cannot get over the price though, especially if what you care about is the end result - great images. Thankfully, you do not need the latest or even recent equipment to make that happen.

$850 for the 35mm? Really? I hope it's a damn good lens. I had the FX Nikon 35mm 1.8G, I thought it was overpriced at $500. I am thinking a used D800 + Sigma 35mm Art would be a better idea if you must have a full-frame camera. That's just the pragmatic part of me I guess.

Greg

erichK said:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#795.786,692.352,ha,t

Even the EM1ii, the largest and heaviest mFT camera I was willing to buy, is half a pound lighter with the faste and very-well-regarded Leica 25 f1.4 and much more compact than this giant-throated gambit by Nikon.

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If size would be the only matter then every interchangeable lens camera maker would be out of business by now.

FF mirrorless or DSLRs for that matter is for a different crowd. Different goals, different options. I have both FF and µ4/3 and I get very frustrated with my OM-D E1 MK II with its AF system a lot. When I do want to get the shot for sure I take my Nikon D500. My Oly suffers from AF acquisition troubles and it gets into an "AF freeze" situation every time I am on the trail. It frustrates the hell out of me that a "professional" camera can get stuck in a frozen AF mode.

Switching on and off and wiggling the lens needs to be performed to get AF working again. The issue is not predictable, however, it happens a couple of times every time when I decide that "OK I give it another chance" and take the Oly on the road instead of one of my Nikons. The D500 remains my go to birding camera despite of that I had very high expectations from the Oly with the 300mm f4 Pro + 1.4x TC for birding. I wanted to have this my main birding camera but I have second thoughts by now. The D500 delivers every time while the Oly frustrates me with its stuck AF situation more often than I'd like to have it.

Best, AIK

Searching said:

Not that I am planning to leave Olympus, but FF mirrorless is looking more attractive these days, I still lust on it and maybe it's just stupid to do so.

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Of course the comparison is the Z6 vs the E-M1 mk 2.

While I do not mind discussing new Nikon cameras, Micro Four Thirds forum is hardly an appropriate place to do so, on the account of it being a Micro Four Thirds forum and not a Nikon forum.