f828 noise is awful!

Matthew likes to discuss how the 717/828 will do more than it
really can and is as good as a DSLR in many ways.
No the 828 is better than a dSLR in many ways and worse in many others. But since you aren't going to buy one and insist on interpolating your G3 experience to all other "prosumer" cameras, you will never know that.

--
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Is that price average or a really cheap price in the US? Because if it presents a bargain find, it's going to cost a lot more, here in Europe...
And you DID mean D300+ 70-200 = $1439? That doesn't sound bad at all...

btw. I still think that the 7x7 (propably the 828 lens too, but we can't be sure yet) is really, REALLY qood quality for the money.
MAC wrote:
The canon D300 and 70 -200 f4L is only $1439.

Matthew likes to discuss how the 717/828 will do more than it
really can and is as good as a DSLR in many ways.

MAC
 
Ryan,

This is like the V-1. Someone posted a link to some "sample shots"
and the frenzy started. Take a deep breath and relax. The camera
hasn't been released. The camera hasn't been reviewed. Lets just
wait until the camera is released and then we can start making
judgements.
All the V1 experience shows is that people will still buy the camera even if it's really noisy. The final production V1 shots are very noisy.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
You think this noise is awful??? My, you're a hard man to please. ;-)
They look pretty bad to me too.
It's no secret that it will be noisier than a dslr at ISO 100, but
you also need to keep in mind that the camera produces much sharper
images out of the camera than a dslr.
More sharpened, but not necessarily sharper. That will depend upon the lens.
Of course the DSLR is going to be better at ISO 100, but you'll
also not shoot at ISO 100 too often unless you're in good light or
have a tripod.
You must shoot in very different conditions from me. I rarely go above ISO 100.
Also, we're talking about two more megapixels here... that
compensates for a lot of noise when printing.
This is a good point that people haven't completley internalized yet. I did try reducing the images to 7x7 size to see what the noise looked like. It's hard to say without a directom comparison, but IMO they still looked pretty bad. Lots of areas that should be smooth still had a sort of mottled look to them.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Hi Ryan, there is legitimacy to what you're thinking, and it's
partly true. But remember that you can shoot at a much faster
aperture with a Sony than you can with a DSLR an achieve the same
DOF. So to shoot the DSLR in the same light with the same results
you'll need to go to even a higher ISO than on the Sony. This is
assuming handheld objectives. If you put it on a tripod, then you
can get the same DOF but the shutter gets too slow to handheld.
From the 300D review, it appears that digicam manufacturers such as Sony are fibbing about the ISO rating by nearly two stops. (Otherwise the 300D is underestimating, but the end result is the same.) This suggests that for the same scene, you may not need to boost the ISO at all if the 828 is rated similarly to the V1.
This is the single-most dissapointment I encountered with my 10D
(outside the focus/soft image issues). That said, you can
sometimes improve this by getting good lenses, the 70-200 2.8 L USM
for example, but the lens is $1,600 alone.
A 2.8 lens has a 1 stop or less (at the long end) disadavantage over the 828 lens and this is before you factor in the ISO fibbing. The price you gave is more like the price of the IS version. The regular version can be obtained for around $1100, which is still a fairly frightening price. However, I find the weight even more frightening, which is the main reason why I haven't gotten on yet.
There are many other reasons to prefer a DSLR, but this just
shouldn't be the major one, for all people, but it does depend on
shooting style and subjects.
For me, noise was one of the main reasons for going DSLR. I take most of my shots at ISO 100 and love the noise free results. (I do have some expensive glass though...)

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Ron, you mentioned about some companies like Sony fibbing on the ISO rating. From my understanding there are differences, most do to the fact that the standards for testing are not very good. I think one day we may see this improve. I have the V1 and I find I have to use EV +0.3 or +0.7, while others have posted justs the opposite of having to minus. Even in the film world, exposure readings were a mix bag. Photographers spent a lot money on expensive flash meters. At that time, Minolta flash meters were considered just about the best.

I really don't think any of these companies are fibbing. It is just the lack of good standards and testing. If you want to see it bad, go shopping for a LCD monitor. You cannot trust any of the specs. In fact NEC filed a lawsuit against ViewSonic for misrepresenting their specs on their LCD monitors. ViewSonic settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money. In the meantime the organization which sets up standards are in the middle of rewriting them so one day a buyer will be able to rely on the specs. Right now you can't.

When it comes to specs and testing, things are not always that clear cut, and the standards are not always established in a way that is consistent both for the manufacture and the consumer.
Hi Ryan, there is legitimacy to what you're thinking, and it's
partly true. But remember that you can shoot at a much faster
aperture with a Sony than you can with a DSLR an achieve the same
DOF. So to shoot the DSLR in the same light with the same results
you'll need to go to even a higher ISO than on the Sony. This is
assuming handheld objectives. If you put it on a tripod, then you
can get the same DOF but the shutter gets too slow to handheld.
From the 300D review, it appears that digicam manufacturers such as
Sony are fibbing about the ISO rating by nearly two stops.
(Otherwise the 300D is underestimating, but the end result is the
same.) This suggests that for the same scene, you may not need to
boost the ISO at all if the 828 is rated similarly to the V1.
This is the single-most dissapointment I encountered with my 10D
(outside the focus/soft image issues). That said, you can
sometimes improve this by getting good lenses, the 70-200 2.8 L USM
for example, but the lens is $1,600 alone.
A 2.8 lens has a 1 stop or less (at the long end) disadavantage
over the 828 lens and this is before you factor in the ISO fibbing.
The price you gave is more like the price of the IS version. The
regular version can be obtained for around $1100, which is still a
fairly frightening price. However, I find the weight even more
frightening, which is the main reason why I haven't gotten on yet.
There are many other reasons to prefer a DSLR, but this just
shouldn't be the major one, for all people, but it does depend on
shooting style and subjects.
For me, noise was one of the main reasons for going DSLR. I take
most of my shots at ISO 100 and love the noise free results. (I do
have some expensive glass though...)

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!
 
Yes ISO 100 looks like ISO 400 on the digital rebel. So? The lens
is two stops faster than the Rebel and considerably sharper.
You're forgetting about Sony's tendency to fib about ISO. If they
rate it the same as they rated the V1, the 300D will be nearly two
stops more sensitive as the same ISO.
The 707 tested at ISO 100 was ISO 70 in real life. The 717 tested correctly (it exposes with higher shutter speeds than the 707 did in any given scene) and there is no reason to suspect the 828 will be any different.

I can't speak for the V1 or whether Canon is understating their ISO ratings.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
 
comparing the 300d to the f828 is the same as comparing a porsche boxster to a mazda mx5! theres no comparison! they just are slightly similar in price! get over it FFS!
 
And when did I ever claim they are far superior????

Ed, I shoot a 10D primarilly. I've shot at least 25k images since June with it. I shot 50,000+ with my 707. I know what kind of results you get printing a 707 image and a 10D image. At 11x14 at ISO 100, you can't tell the different between the two. I've had 11x14's from my 707 mistaken by a judge as a medium format image. It's the results that matter, and the 828's 60% more pixels is going to really offer wonderful print output for $1,000. It will put it on par with a 6 mp dslr for print output under the most common shooting conditions (the most common type of shot most people shoot without a tripod)

I'm not putting a spin on anything.
all that is not necessary.
I really hope they're still working on that sensor, because the
noise in those Sony sample shots isn't close to competing with the
new dSLRS. ISO 100 looks like 400/800 on the Canon's.
Nobody in his/her right mind would expect any different! It's
disappointing that some people just haven't got it into their heads
that the the laws of physics (laws of nature, actually) preclude
anything approaching comparable noise performance from these two
sensors without supercooling the 8 Mp one. It's not Sony's fault,
or lack of expertise. It's just not possible to have this
particular cake and eat it. Get used to the idea.

Noise was never something that was going to be equal, and it's no
good banging one's head against the wall about it. The Sony has its
own very significant strengths in other areas.

IMHO (and believe me, I regard noise as a curse) the noise in these
samples is quite acceptable by 5 Mp standards (and better than many
other offerings over the past couple of years), let alone 8 Mp from
the same total sensor area. As Jim mentions, we've no idea how
intelligently they've been sharpened. I'd go as far as to say that
the sharpening threshold has been set too low -- the file size is
greater than I would have expected, suggesting that the noise
itself has been sharpened.

And in any case, it can only get better upon reduction to 6 Mp if
one really wants to pursue direct comparisons on the noise front.

Meanwhile, the colour leaves anything Sony has dished up from its
previous consumer cameras completely in the dust. And it's STILL
nowhere near production yet.

As far as I'm concerned these are quite promising. FWIW I've just
gone in the 10D direction, partly for noise but mainly for other
reasons, yet I can find no justification for rubbishing these
images out of hand. Certainly not just because it seems to have
become fashionable to do so.

Mike
--
Jim Fuglestad
Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase.
-Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
--
http://www.sublogic.net
--
Jim Fuglestad

Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase. -Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
 
Ron, you mentioned about some companies like Sony fibbing on the
ISO rating. From my understanding there are differences, most do to
the fact that the standards for testing are not very good. I think
one day we may see this improve. I have the V1 and I find I have to
use EV +0.3 or +0.7, while others have posted justs the opposite of
having to minus. Even in the film world, exposure readings were a
mix bag. Photographers spent a lot money on expensive flash meters.
At that time, Minolta flash meters were considered just about the
best.
There's no technical reason for producing incorrect ISO ratings for film. The standard (5800:1987) is extremely precise.

It should not be hard to relate digital standards to film standards.

Note that in Phil's tests, the subjects are illuminated to the same degree, so there is no questioning the difference in sensitivity.

Metering is an entirely separate matter.
When it comes to specs and testing, things are not always that
clear cut, and the standards are not always established in a way
that is consistent both for the manufacture and the consumer.
I'd rather not get into a long argument about testing standards here because even if we accept your premise, it doesn't change the fact the V1 is much, much less sensitive than the 300D acording to Phil's tests. The tests show much greater sensitivity for the 300D vs. the G5 at the same ISO, and greater sensitivity for the G5 vs. the v1 at the same ISO. this is true whether you believe the problem is fibbing or unclear standards.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The 707 tested at ISO 100 was ISO 70 in real life. The 717 tested
correctly (it exposes with higher shutter speeds than the 707 did
in any given scene) and there is no reason to suspect the 828 will
be any different.
The reason would be that the V1 has essentially the same size pixels as the 828. The 828 sensor is much more like the V1 sensor than the 717 sensor.
I can't speak for the V1 or whether Canon is understating their ISO
ratings.
It's not clear that they're underestating it, but this isn't the point. The point is that your argument doesn't fly. It's partly off if sony rates the 828 like the 717, and way off if Sony rates the 828 sensor in a like manner to the most similar sensor in their lineup.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The claims that ISO values are off by a factor of 3 is very controversial.

I'm planning on trying out a digital rebel this week at the local camera store. I'll think of an appropriate test or three and bring my 717 along to compare ISO ratings. Some fairly straightforward testing should reveal the truth of this claim about a factor of 2 or 3 between varying ISO values.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
 
The dynamic range is there, as is the detail. On this one picture
the curve applied is too contrasty so you can't see the details in
the blacks on certain monitors with muddy dark values.
It sounds like you may not understand what dynamic range is. By definition, you can't increase noise w/o decreasing dynamic range - unless you simultaneously increase the capacity of the pixels to hold charge, but there's no evidence that this has occurred.

You can lighten up the black yarn, but noise starts creeping in.

You're right that some of the people complaining about they yarn may have poorly adjusted monitors, but that's just part of the story. The complaints about noise are necessarily complaints about DR too.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The claims that ISO values are off by a factor of 3 is very
controversial.
Identify the flaw in Phil's tests.
I never saw a test where he directly compared the 3 cameras for ISO.

My test will be relatively simple -- set the cameras to the same aperture value and ISO and see what the shutter speeds come up with identical compositions. I'll use the default matrix metering for both cameras and check out a number of compositions.

I expect them to meter fairly equivalent exposures, but I'll let everyone know the results.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
 
The dynamic range is there, as is the detail. On this one picture
the curve applied is too contrasty so you can't see the details in
the blacks on certain monitors with muddy dark values.
It sounds like you may not understand what dynamic range is.
By
definition, you can't increase noise w/o decreasing dynamic range -
unless you simultaneously increase the capacity of the pixels to
hold charge, but there's no evidence that this has occurred.

You can lighten up the black yarn, but noise starts creeping in.
MAC was complaining that the yarn was solid black. It was extremely easy to lighten the yarn and see a lot of detail without any particular amount of noise. This was due to a rather contrasty curve applied (probably by the original photographer choosing a "high contrast" setting).

It sounds like you might not understand the difference between poor dynamic range and a contrasty curve applied to the image.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
 

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