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Sony.jp F828 Sample images are online now

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Hallo,

i will not pretend, i'm not a professional ... was just very curious about this new toy. When I looked at the silk images, I was really disappointed about the red, black and white color. Especially the red - any ideas why it is THIS bad?
( http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/DSC/DSC-F828/pop_feat1_02_1.html )

Also, in the preview here I found that the 640 movie mode at 30 fps is only available with mem-stick-pro. However, I found another preview, stating that u can shoot the same movie even with CF-II cards (the very high speed CF-II, which is still cheaper than those mem-sticks). Tha camera should be able to decide if the mem-card one uses is fast enough ... my question is ... does anyone know?
 
Hi Andrew I posted this link 4 days ago, and figured everyone must have been asleep when I did hehehe :)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=6109890

Nice to see everyone's awake now :) Skippy (Australia)
Andrew Mullan said:
Sorry for posting twice, I just want to make sure no one misses the
post.

ISO 100 Sample images

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/DSC/DSC-F828/index.html

Click skip Movie then click the 4th button (Translation ... sample
images)

Andrew Mullan
Click to expand...
--

 
Mark J said:
Again, I did not see any EXIF data to look at under the images.
Maybe I wasn't logged in properly to view this, I don't know?
Click to expand...
Here is some for the flower shot:

Filename : sample_02b.jpg
JFIF_APP1 : Exif
Main Information
ImageDescription :
Make : SONY
Model : DSC-F828
Orientation : left-hand side
XResolution : 72/1
YResolution : 72/1
ResolutionUnit : Inch
DateTime : 2003:09:01 11:04:44
YCbCrPositioning : co-sited
ExifInfoOffset : 256
PrintIM IFD : 28Bytes
Print Image Matching Info
Version : 0250
Sub Information
ExposureTime : 1/250Sec
FNumber : F6,3
ExposureProgram : Program Normal
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2003:09:01 11:04:44
DateTimeDigitized : 2003:09:01 11:04:44
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 8/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0,0
MaxApertureValue : F2,0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Not fired(Compulsory)
FocalLength : 11,40(mm)
MakerNote : SONY Format : 1404Bytes (Offset:722)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 3264
ExifImageHeight : 2448
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 2114
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Auto
WhiteBalance : Auto
SceneCaptureType : Standard
Contrast : Unknown (4)
Saturation : Unknown (4)
Sharpness : Unknown (4)
Vendor Original Information
ExifR98
ExifR : R98
Version : 0100
Thumbnail Information
Compression : OLDJPEG
Make : SONY
Model : DSC-RDH
Orientation : left-hand side
XResolution : 72/1
YResolution : 72/1
ResolutionUnit : Inch
DateTime : 2003:09:01 11:04:44
JPEGInterchangeFormat : 2320
JPEGInterchangeFormatLength : 9372

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
 
Honza Vesely said:
Hallo,

i will not pretend, i'm not a professional ... was just very
curious about this new toy. When I looked at the silk images, I was
really disappointed about the red, black and white color.
Especially the red - any ideas why it is THIS bad?
( http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/DSC/DSC-F828/pop_feat1_02_1.html )
Click to expand...
The images of the silk thread look fine to my eyes, since we have no idea what the original color was we can't judge but looking at the image we see clean reproduction of the threads without any bleeding of color in any of the threads that shouldn't be there. For example all the threads near the edge of the basket are illuminating the frame of the basket with reflected light...so if you thought the color bleeding into the frame was an issue ...it's not it's just physics. I really think people are judging these images beyond (ie. to DSLR images) the standard that they should be judged by...remember this is an 8mp / 2/3" sensor producing these images....try this exercise. Take any of these images and reduce them to 6mp equivalent of your DSLR shots THEN compare them...they will look much better in comparison. Sony has done a great job as far as I can see considering the limitations that they had to deal with to build this sensor.

Regards,

--

 
Sony should provide the same technology and sample pictures information on their U.S. website. If their U.S. staff is not able to present comprehensive details on their new products, at least they should have the wisdom to post an English link to a translated version on their Japanese website. This courtesy will not cost a lot of money for their marketing department but will greatly help their potential customers to make an informed decision whether or not to buy their products.

The other approach is to design an universal website containing all the comprehensive information with links to multiple languages so Sony can reach potential customers worldwide.

I encourage more of you to write to Sony to request for such a provision.

donlam

****************
Andrew Mullan said:
Sorry for posting twice, I just want to make sure no one misses the
post.

ISO 100 Sample images

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/DSC/DSC-F828/index.html

Click skip Movie then click the 4th button (Translation ... sample
images)

Andrew Mullan
Click to expand...
 
You sound like i insulted u. Sorry if i did, was never my intention. Actually, I am very curious about this camera because I am seriously thinking about buying it when it is available ... I got just a bit ....ehm, let's call it scarred when i looked at the image. I am viewing it on my 21" monitor at 1600x1200 ... yes, you are right - most of the threads do look perfectly sharp, even when i zoom a lot. The colors are great. Really. Except the red threads ... could be my monitor of course. Anyway, the red is very unsharp on my screen. Anyway, I will wait for the "in depth review" on this page when the production model is available.

And one more thing - this is more of a general question, not just about this camera... actually with any camera: why is it so damn expensive in Europe compared to US? In some of the threads i have seen prices like 920 or 970 $ - In Netherlands the price will be something between 1100 and 1300 euro ... which is about 1250-1450 $. Can anyone tell me WHY? I could understand a difference of say 100 euro .... but why is this difference so huge?
 
Don, have you ever come to Japan?

Japan is a very different market from the rest of the world. Companies here generally only market their products to Japanese (that is the meaning of the .co.jp LOL). I posted the links to the duck image because I thought people might want to see them, note that that was on Friday so everyone needs to be patient, sony.com will update there pages soon. But maybe you don't realize what an impossible task it would be for sony.jp to translate all their pages to English. Of course yes they could have waited until sony.com publish their info but why should they delay their work for every other country to pull their pages together. After all they are not really even the same company (completely different management structure and style).

Andrew Mullan

BTW I know how the companies operate here and it WOULD cost a lot of money, and even if the impossible come true who would pay for it Sony.jp (why waste money?). Also most Japanese companies don’t have many (if any) native speakers working for them.
Donald Lam said:
The other approach is to design an universal website containing all
the comprehensive information with links to multiple languages so
Sony can reach potential customers worldwide.

I encourage more of you to write to Sony to request for such a
provision.

donlam

****************
Andrew Mullan said:
Sorry for posting twice, I just want to make sure no one misses the
post.

ISO 100 Sample images

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/DSC/DSC-F828/index.html

Click skip Movie then click the 4th button (Translation ... sample
images)

Andrew Mullan
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
detefon said:
So that's tha camera people are comparing to the 300D? Are you
kidding me?
Click to expand...
No need to actually try out a production model and form an informed opinion when you can make sweeping statements based on, err, a handful of pictures taken by someone else and nothing else, eh?
 
Will Rose said:
Here's my two cents on what were seeing this pics:

Firstly, I was pleasantly surprised with how little noise I saw
when I first looked at this pics. My first thought has "hmm!
that's actually pretty good" and I'm sure that's exactly what Sony
wanted me to think.

When I looked a little closer howerver, I was disappointed. I
actually looked at the pic of the flowers first, and as Brianos
pointed out, there's significant color bleeding from the yellow
petals. I didn't really have an opinion as to why this was (it
could be several things) until I looked at the ducks.

Now let me just say, I actually own several of that breed of duck.
They're an offshoot of the Rouen variety, which look very much like
Mallards (just generally not as good). The point is I KNOW what
these ducks look like up close, and I've taken pics of them with a
5MP digicam (the Sony F717 and Minolta 7HI).

This pic is, I think, very indicative of a problem with the 828.
The noise reduction is FANTASTICALLY AGRESSIVE. On the pics that I
shot with the 717 (unfortunately I deleted them long ago, they were
just for testing) you could see much more detail in the ducks
feathers at this distance. These ducks have a very finely
detailed pattern in the feathers on their lower sides, which have
almost been blurred out of existance by the 828. Also, you should
be able to see the frayed ends of those feathers, and you cannot in
this shot (although you can in some of the brown upper feathers
where there is more contrast.) Also, there is a grain pattern that
should be visible in the bill (like on your fingernails) which has
been totally smoothed away.

I believe this is because the pattern on these feathers looks like
noise to the image processor, so it smooths it out. That's just a
guess. What I can tell you for sure was that you could see more
feather detail in my 5MP pics than you can here.
Click to expand...
I think you are onto something here. My first reaction to these was that they were suprising clear in the shadows and neutral tones. (I have done many hours of photoshop repairing the noise on past Sony cams {DSC85, DSC707 simply for sky tone)

Then I saw the overall pattern present on both pics. It has been referred to as reticulation here by another. reminds me more of a too aggresive form of blurring. Hence losing the detail on the feathers. On older models of digital camera the noise breaks up into bits of RGB and you are left with a kind of "rainbow" splattering in the shadows... this is different.

Just had the opportunity to spend a week with a V-1 and enjoyed its ability to eliminate this noise in my darker shots... I didnt see this pattern. Most likely I need to reevalute them...heh heh....I wasnt looking for this. It is also carries less resolution... perhaps making this job easier.

Baco
Will Rose said:
It's possible these problems are the result of a shakey camera or
bad focus, but it's also possible that Sony ran up agains physical
noise realities in an 8MP 2/3 sensor, and had to go crazy with the
NR so that people would still think the pics looked nice.

It's a cliche, I know, but we'll have to wait for a detailed review
under controlled conditions to see how things pan out.

Will
Click to expand...
 
Honza Vesely said:
You sound like i insulted u. Sorry if i did, was never my
intention. Actually, I am very curious about this camera because I
am seriously thinking about buying it when it is available ... I
got just a bit ....ehm, let's call it scarred when i looked at the
image. I am viewing it on my 21" monitor at 1600x1200 ... yes, you
are right - most of the threads do look perfectly sharp, even when
i zoom a lot. The colors are great. Really. Except the red threads
... could be my monitor of course. Anyway, the red is very unsharp
on my screen. Anyway, I will wait for the "in depth review" on this
page when the production model is available.
Click to expand...
Honza,

You arent crazy. The red bleeds. Everything else is so tight and crisp it squeaks... the red bleeds... I have always considered it a bit of a Sony "thing" and characteristic of their hardware. It can be worked around a bit..

Baco
Honza Vesely said:
And one more thing - this is more of a general question, not just
about this camera... actually with any camera: why is it so damn
expensive in Europe compared to US? In some of the threads i have
seen prices like 920 or 970 $ - In Netherlands the price will be
something between 1100 and 1300 euro ... which is about 1250-1450
$. Can anyone tell me WHY? I could understand a difference of say
100 euro .... but why is this difference so huge?
Click to expand...
 
Don't let it get to you. All you did was post what you saw. I have a 21" CRT and 19" LCD (both hardware calibrated) and I see the same red problem (loss of sharpness and contrast which is likely due to color bleeding) that you're talking about. On any forum you will find people who try real hard to you to see things thier way. Fact is, Sony is well known for having red issues in their 7xx series of cameras, so you think they would have resolved issues with that color by now.

Paul
Honza Vesely said:
You sound like i insulted u. Sorry if i did, was never my
intention. Actually, I am very curious about this camera because I
am seriously thinking about buying it when it is available ... I
got just a bit ....ehm, let's call it scarred when i looked at the
image. I am viewing it on my 21" monitor at 1600x1200 ... yes, you
are right - most of the threads do look perfectly sharp, even when
i zoom a lot. The colors are great. Really. Except the red threads
... could be my monitor of course. Anyway, the red is very unsharp
on my screen. Anyway, I will wait for the "in depth review" on this
page when the production model is available.

And one more thing - this is more of a general question, not just
about this camera... actually with any camera: why is it so damn
expensive in Europe compared to US? In some of the threads i have
seen prices like 920 or 970 $ - In Netherlands the price will be
something between 1100 and 1300 euro ... which is about 1250-1450
$. Can anyone tell me WHY? I could understand a difference of say
100 euro .... but why is this difference so huge?
Click to expand...
 
Dear Arn,

(according to the Japanese description about the two modes) Real mode supposedly gives a color closer to what human eyes see, while Standard mode gives the original data (only processed with RGBE-to-RGB) which might cover some details of specific colors that the user might like to see.

This implies that under most of the circumstances, the Real mode won't be that different from the Standard mode, unless some extreme colors are present.

Regards :)

Knopfler
Ulysses said:
Or it may be that they are simply using slightly different
processing during the conversion from RGB+E to RGB. There are a lot
of options and alternatives open here.
Arn said:
But it's not a colormode difference if it's a levels adjustment (or
more likely, a user error while taking the photographs)...
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info! My japanese is a little rusty... ;)

Still... The comparison pictures
A) have not been taken with a tripod for easy comparison

B) really seem to have differing luminance levels (this may be due to metering or exposure difference / lighting variation OR in-camera processing difference - we cannot tell)

So, there are elements to the images that make evaluation of the color modes harder.
knopfler said:
knopfler wrote:
(according to the Japanese description about the two modes) Real
mode supposedly gives a color closer to what human eyes see, while
Standard mode gives the original data (only processed with
RGBE-to-RGB) which might cover some details of specific colors that
the user might like to see.

This implies that under most of the circumstances, the Real mode
won't be that different from the Standard mode, unless some extreme
colors are present.
Click to expand...
 
Mark Lane said:
I was trying to decide between the two and that's made up my mind.
Look at this guy's album of pics taken with the E-20.....
Click to expand...
How can you have your mind made up when you've yet to see what photographers might do with an 828?!

I mean, you seem to be basing your opinion on the creative work of an experienced Olympus photographer (who's probably got thousands of duff shots in his collection too) after comparinf them to a handful of frankly duff 828 test shots. It's madness!

How on earth can you let your mind be made up without every seeing comparative shots from an 828?

And in amongst all this dull tech willy-waving, it's worth bearing in mind that some of the greatest shots ever made were taken with cranky old manual cameras bereft of the kind of zoom-tastic, auto-metering features we take for granted now.

A shiny new gadget-laden, gizmo-stuffed camera won't take great pictures - only the photographer can do that.

And a good photographer will get great photographs from just about any old camera.
 
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