MalcolmD99
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Nikon go's mirrorless?
- Thread starter MalcolmD99
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David Lal
Forum Pro
What language is that? I speak quite a few but this foxes (fox's?) me.
;-)
;-)
Why Toi
Forum Enthusiast
Once I woke up, I soon realised that the future will mean a new round of lens investments as existing dSLR lenses loses full compatibility with the new mirrorless bodies. Would it also be the death of DX standard as people move to FX.
W
Wu Jiaqiu
Guest
again, 2nd attempt let's hope if fares better
True. There will probably be fairly good compatibility with Nikkor lenses using their adapter, but many third party lenses will probably be incompatible or crippled in some way. Ultimately FF users will want the native Nikon mirrorless lenses though. Adapters add weight and length to the package and is an antithesis to what mirrorless is supposed to be.
Most probably. I doubt Nikon will bother developing a separate APS-C mirrorless system with yet another series of DX mirrorless lenses and unfortunately using large and heavy FF lenses on small mirrorless DX bodies would be an exercise in frustration. Just look at the size of The FF Sony E mount lenses to get an idea. Even the prime lenses are huge!
I think Nikon now sees their future as a high end niche full frame camera company catering to professionals and the well heeled amateurs. I expect Coolpix to be gone in five years or less and Nikon DX DSLRs gone in ten.
If your interested in owning an APS-C mirrorless system you have only three good brand options right now with Canon, Fujifilm and Sony. I expect that five years from now those three will still be the only options for APS-C Mirrorless and Nikon will be doing everything they can to encourage DX owners to “move up” to full frame.
--
Best regards,
Jon
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Why Toi
Forum Enthusiast
Certainly counting on Nikon's tradition of maintaining compatibility here. Fingers crossed their adapter will be an efficient one. Otherwise I'm not too concerned about the length as with my present FE Sony lenses, they are not that short. Just look at their 50mm, way longer than a Nikon FX 50mm, often bulkier too. What's more valuable is in the reduced weight of the mirrorless body. So in my mind, the key to a successful transition for the existing Nikon users will be in that adapter.
I'm not sure about that. I can see Nikon come out with a high end mirrorless APS-C body (fingers crossed) that is smaller than the FX model, allowing existing DX lenses to be fully utilised. But obviously we'll just have to wait and see. They of course could elect to just ask DX users to migrate to FX bodies and shoot with crop setting. But the price of that body matters!
Scary move for Nikon if that's the case, eventually it'll just erode itself out of the photo HW market completely.
David Lal
Forum Pro
.. armchair executives who think they know more about Nikon's business than Nikon. What a bore ...
Youtube KenW (Theoria Apophasis) is confident that the existing Nikon patent for a mirrorless lens adapter will apply to this camera and will have a pellicle mirror. That will interfere with light gathering, and therefore the photograph. Using an adapter on the mirrorless cameras with Nikkor F lenses is not really viable.
Will AF and AF-D lenses be compatible with the adapter? That seems extremely unlikely. AF-S looks like the oldest inclusion allowed, based on that patent. But no lens will be able to perform as well as a native mirrorless lens.
Given the differences between mirrorless and dslr, and in particular the different lens mounts, can Nikon now run two R&D departments concurrently over a longer term? That also seems unlikely.
Nikon delayed this change as we know, but this new camera indicates that Nikon sees its future in photography as a maker of mirrorless cameras, with possibly one or two lines of dslr that are frozen in time, just has it has done with the two film cameras it still sells - a pro and a consumer camera.
The positive for Nikon is that the mount diameter allows Nikon to introduce a medium format digital camera, something Canon can't do unless it changes a mount that covers both dslr and mirrorless. It's hard to believe Nikon has no memory of the jump Canon got over Nikon in the 1980s, when Canon changed the mount to optimise AF. Nikon seems to be pushing up, away from compact, DX, and even FX, in the future.
Will AF and AF-D lenses be compatible with the adapter? That seems extremely unlikely. AF-S looks like the oldest inclusion allowed, based on that patent. But no lens will be able to perform as well as a native mirrorless lens.
Given the differences between mirrorless and dslr, and in particular the different lens mounts, can Nikon now run two R&D departments concurrently over a longer term? That also seems unlikely.
Nikon delayed this change as we know, but this new camera indicates that Nikon sees its future in photography as a maker of mirrorless cameras, with possibly one or two lines of dslr that are frozen in time, just has it has done with the two film cameras it still sells - a pro and a consumer camera.
The positive for Nikon is that the mount diameter allows Nikon to introduce a medium format digital camera, something Canon can't do unless it changes a mount that covers both dslr and mirrorless. It's hard to believe Nikon has no memory of the jump Canon got over Nikon in the 1980s, when Canon changed the mount to optimise AF. Nikon seems to be pushing up, away from compact, DX, and even FX, in the future.
Why Toi
Forum Enthusiast
That's on the assumption that Nikon will produce a product exactly per patent. Fact is, Nikon lenses from the old non-AI to AF have been interfaced with Sony A7 series bodies, let alone Canon lenses and the degree of compatibility, I'd say Nikon will not be restrained given it fully owns all the technologies involved. Makes no sense to state 'F lenses is not really viable'.
If Nikon avoids the mirror in the adapter, your optimism may be well placed, but that would be a terrific leap of tech no one else has solved. Let's hope so.
Why Toi
Forum Enthusiast
That YouTuber Theoria Apophasis is a big loud mouth. As much as he has experiences with Nikon equipment, he is hardly an engineer or technology guru. I'd take a very very heavy grain of salt with his blurbs.
Forget about grains of salt, do you know another way the adapter could operate with F mount lenses? No, you don't. So personal attacks are irrelevant. Give it up. If Nikon can solve the problem, it will be a revolution in imaging. Let's hope.
Why Toi
Forum Enthusiast
That’s up the engineers using the full range of current technologies at their disposal. In the meantime, just look at how Sony A7 series and the various adapters used with those for direction. A patent from 5 years ago is no guarantee for a product.
There is no technical reason why the adapter needs to have mirror to support Nikkor AI-S lens.
My Nikon 24mm f/2.8 AI-S is almost permanently attached to my Sony A6300 via a vello adapter which is a dumb-mechancal-adapter. With this setup, I shoot manual focus with focus peaking, mostly aperture Priority with any of the three exposure metering modes (matrix, center-weighted, spot). I also use my Takumar M42 and Canon FD lenses via dumb mechanical adapters; work pretty much the same way.
As for D lens, mirror or not, it needs to have a motor and powering it maybe tricky.
I am very interested in seeing what direction Nikon is going to take. I don’t like using Sony Cameras; tried them (A6300, A7RIII) and did not care for them.
As for Ken, I'll keep my personal opinions to myself. Nonetheless, I stop following him these days.
p51d007
Senior Member
Every mirrorless camera I've seen, they are too SMALL for me. I LIKE the big bulky hold it in your hand camera. These mirrorless ones, from what I've seen, look kind of tiny, which I understand why, but I just like a "beefy" camera.
Gizmo89
Forum Enthusiast
I'm curious about the image quality. Does mirrorless have superior image quality to DSLRs? If not, then what would be my incentive to go mirrorless? I don't shoot sports, I don't shoot wildlife, so I don't need 20fps.
While mirrorless is not for everyone, here are a some of the things that my mirrorless Fujifilm XT-2 with an EVF gives me that a DSLR can not:
- Most mirrorless bodies are less bulky and lighter than DSLRs. The weight savings is greatest when compared to DSLRs with glass pentaprism viewfinders, however. Weight especially had become a huge issue for me once I reached retirement age. When in my youth I often backpacked in the mountains carrying 65 pound packs, but those days are long gone for me now, sad to say. Both of my Fujifilm cameras are noticeably smaller and lighter than my former Nikon D7000.
- The better EVFs are larger and brighter than DSLRs with those cheap pentamirrors.
- More accurate AF-S which is just spot on every time. Front or back focus issues are a thing of the past with any lens since the focusing is done right on the sensor. I have found AF accuracy is particularly improved with zoom lenses over a DSLR’s separate focus system that relies on the accurate alignment of the mirror and AF sensors..
- Totally silent electronic shutter option (one of my favorite features of mirrorless cameras), where total silence is desired. I have found this especially helpful when photographing birds so I can approach them more closely. I also used the silent shutter at a baptism in a church, which did not disturb the ceremony in the least.
- No mirror slap and with electronic shutter there is zero chance of shutter shock for blur free photos.
- The EVF allows me to review my photos immediately for subject sharpness and exposure even in brilliant sunshine. I could never do that with my DSLRs.
- I can see the white balance , exposure and the affect of exposure compensation in the EVF or LCD in real time before I press the shutter button.
- Better face detection and even eye detection option. Thiis is particularly helpful when I hand off my camera to a stranger so both my wife and I can get in the same photo with both of us in focus and not the space between us instead! This worked great on our trip to Yosemite Park.
- Manual focusing is easy using the EVF and one of three manual focusing aid options, magnify, focus peaking, and split image. Manual focusing with a DSLR has to be done in Live view while looking at an LCD on the back of the camera which is a real PITA.
- I can zoom into my focus point in real time with a push of a button to check focus using the EVF After the shot I can review that same focus point with a push of that same button. Surprisingly, this holds true even when using manual focus with an adapted lens and a dumb adapter!
- Ability to adapt virtually any brand of current or legacy SLR or DSLR lenses to my camera while retaining Aperture Priority auto exposure and using manual focusing.
- Panoramic JPEG stitching in camera with review in the EVF.
- Much better video is possible and easier to do with an EVF than trying to use the LCD on the back of a DSLR. Video can be reviewed in the EVF as well, even in bright sun.
- I can increase the size of the viewfinders information and have the option of what information and what orientation I want displayed in the viewfinder of my Fujifilm X-T2. This is a great help to my aging eyes!
- Depth of field graphic scale option in viewfinder that adjusts as the focus distance and aperture changes.
- Some lenses for mirrorless cameras are smaller and lighter than for DSLRs. A particular example is the Samyang/Rokinon 12mm f2.0 lens which is smaller than any Nikon prime lens for DSLRs. Nice too is that this 12mm f2.0 lens can be bought for less than $300!
To get some idea of just how small an APS-C mirrorless camera and lens diameters can be, I have side by side comparison photos of a rather small Nikon 1 V2 camera with its 1” sensor and the superb Nikkor 10-100mm lens next to a Fujifilm X-T10 with a 16-50mm lens. As you can see, they are virtually the same in outward size despite the much larger APS-C sensor in the X-T10.
BTW, if you think the X-T10 is the heavier kit, you would be wrong. ;-)
PS. I plan to keep my Nikon 1 kit as well for the foreseeable future. The V2 with the superb 10-100mm lens is just too much fun to part with it!
Best regards,
Jon
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Gizmo89
Forum Enthusiast
Well it's great that you like your mirrorless cameras. Personally, I don't see advantages over a newer DSLR like a D5600. I see the weight savings as negligible, considering the X-T10 saves whole 86 grams or 2.96 ounces in weight, or 31mm in width. That's not something that will kill me. And it seems like the same expensive lenses will have to be purchased. Besides, cameras on phones are getting better and better every year. By the time I decide to upgrade or my camera fails, cameras on phones will have advanced to the point that will make my decision easy. So image quality is a wash between the two systems.While mirrorless is not for everyone, here are a some of the things that my mirrorless Fujifilm XT-2 with an EVF gives me that a DSLR can not:
So these are at least some of the things I can think of off hand that have made me a convert to mirrorless from a DSLR, but bulk and weight savings is highest on my list. The bulk and weight savings of my Fujifilm X-T10 with the small, light and inexpensive Fujinon XC 16-50mm lens compared to my former Nikon D7000 and Tokina 16-50mm lens can only be described as enormous!
- Most mirrorless bodies are less bulky and lighter than DSLRs. The weight savings is greatest when compared to DSLRs with glass pentaprism viewfinders, however. Weight especially had become a huge issue for me once I reached retirement age. When in my youth I often backpacked in the mountains carrying 65 pound packs, but those days are long gone for me now, sad to say. Both of my Fujifilm cameras are noticeably smaller and lighter than my former Nikon D7000.
- The better EVFs are larger and brighter than DSLRs with those cheap pentamirrors.
- More accurate AF-S which is just spot on every time. Front or back focus issues are a thing of the past with any lens since the focusing is done right on the sensor. I have found AF accuracy is particularly improved with zoom lenses over a DSLR’s separate focus system that relies on the accurate alignment of the mirror and AF sensors..
- Totally silent electronic shutter option (one of my favorite features of mirrorless cameras), where total silence is desired. I have found this especially helpful when photographing birds so I can approach them more closely. I also used the silent shutter at a baptism in a church, which did not disturb the ceremony in the least.
- No mirror slap and with electronic shutter there is zero chance of shutter shock for blur free photos.
- The EVF allows me to review my photos immediately for subject sharpness and exposure even in brilliant sunshine. I could never do that with my DSLRs.
- I can see the white balance , exposure and the affect of exposure compensation in the EVF or LCD in real time before I press the shutter button.
- Better face detection and even eye detection option. Thiis is particularly helpful when I hand off my camera to a stranger so both my wife and I can get in the same photo with both of us in focus and not the space between us instead! This worked great on our trip to Yosemite Park.
- Manual focusing is easy using the EVF and one of three manual focusing aid options, magnify, focus peaking, and split image. Manual focusing with a DSLR has to be done in Live view while looking at an LCD on the back of the camera which is a real PITA.
- I can zoom into my focus point in real time with a push of a button to check focus using the EVF After the shot I can review that same focus point with a push of that same button. Surprisingly, this holds true even when using manual focus with an adapted lens and a dumb adapter!
- Ability to adapt virtually any brand of current or legacy SLR or DSLR lenses to my camera while retaining Aperture Priority auto exposure and using manual focusing.
- Panoramic JPEG stitching in camera with review in the EVF.
- Much better video is possible and easier to do with an EVF than trying to use the LCD on the back of a DSLR. Video can be reviewed in the EVF as well, even in bright sun.
- I can increase the size of the viewfinders information and have the option of what information and what orientation I want displayed in the viewfinder of my Fujifilm X-T2. This is a great help to my aging eyes!
- Depth of field graphic scale option in viewfinder that adjusts as the focus distance and aperture changes.
- Some lenses for mirrorless cameras are smaller and lighter than for DSLRs. A particular example is the Samyang/Rokinon 12mm f2.0 lens which is smaller than any Nikon prime lens for DSLRs. Nice too is that this 12mm f2.0 lens can be bought for less than $300!
To get some idea of just how small an APS-C mirrorless camera and lens diameters can be, I have side by side comparison photos of a rather small Nikon 1 V2 camera with its 1” sensor and the superb Nikkor 10-100mm lens next to a Fujifilm X-T10 with a 16-50mm lens. As you can see, they are virtually the same in outward size despite the much larger APS-C sensor in the X-T10.
BTW, if you think the X-T10 is the heavier kit, you would be wrong. ;-)
PS. I plan to keep my Nikon 1 kit as well for the foreseeable future. The V2 with the superb 10-100mm lens is just too much fun to part with it!
Best regards,
Jon
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