100-400mm F4.5 vs 70-200mm F2.8 - for landscape + surfing

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Magnar W said:
PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Just bear in mind that different FL at the same aperture will have different exposure.

Click to expand...

No, same f-number will require the same exposure speed for the main subject, no matter focal length.

Click to expand...

Although I more talk about genetic landscape type, but still not true on moving subject. You forgot ISO. Total exposure is the combination of aperture, shutter and ISO.

Click to expand...

I don't forget anything.

I guess we all have heard Exposure Triangle

https://photographylife.com/what-is-exposure-triangle

Member said:
Exposure is aperture and shutter speed, balanced to match the light reflecting off the subject. The reflection is the same, no matter using a 24 mm or 400 mm lens, so you use the same shutter speed and aperture value.

ISO doesn't add or reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor. But of cause, you need to compensate for the ISO setting.

So add/reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor doesn't affect total exposure?

Exposure is the triangle of aperture, shutter and ISO that judged by histogram.

Member said:
Member said:

I know this too well in airshow photo that 100mm on close airplane and 400mm on remote plane have different exposure as AOV is different.

Click to expand...

In such cases the light is different, so the exposure need to be adjusted. This has nothing to do with different focal lengts needing different aperture values when the shutter speed is fixed.

That seems contradict yourself as you admitted "so the exposure need to be adjusted". I shoot the type of airplanes at the same shutter such as 1/180 for helicopter and 1/1600 for jet planes. then at 100mm and 400mm if I shotot both at F5.6, ISO is different to accommodate different amount of light that resulted to different exposure as you agreed.

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

24mm, 70mm, 200mm and 400mm at the same F4.5 or F5.6 could have very different shutter speed that turns to total exposure as AOV is very different and entire scene is very different. 24mm will have lots of sky and nearby environment while 400mm may just covers a remote surfer and his body.

Click to expand...

You are mixing up brightness of different scenes with exposure for the main subject. This might create more confusion than help if not explained in detail.

Click to expand...

The exposure of entire picture or scene is very important. You don't want the surfer get bright exposure on the price of nearby environment white out. Sony sensor is very good that you can pull the darker face in shadow a few stop without a problem.

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Now you are talking about different scenes, not the same subject lit by the same light source.

Different AOV = different scenes. Your camera exposes on entire scene not just on that subject as otherwise could ended in severe underexposed or overexposed on entire photo.

Member said:
Member said:

I use AE (the default setting in Sony bodes) in airshow and zoo photos and even set -1/3 EV default (I found it's the best in all A7r-series and A9) without any problems.

Click to expand...

When the light is the same, you could very well use manual exposure and fixed ISO value.

If you could control at the different FL. Then you will notice histogram is different at different FL.

Member said:
My take is: Expose according to the light source, using manual settings. Fixed ISO, never ever auto ISO. Then there is no need for alternative exposures, not even when photographing a white dressed bride or a black dressed groom, no matter bright sunshine or dull cloudy days.

OK for landscape type (where I don't use auto-ISO either) but not practical in airshow for example. Give a try if you don't believe. I have to use auto-ISO in those scenarios and hate ISO 50 is not part of auto-ISO and type of planes by choosing different shutter speed (unless you want to freeze propellers for a surreal look) , light and FL can change dramatically. Therefore under 1/200 shutter, even at ISO 50 (that is not part of auto-ISO), aperture easily jump over F11 where PDAF stop working under AF-C. To me this is a major issue in such application (airshow or motorsport for panning) unless Sony add a fake ISO 25 and also add into auto-ISO together with ISO 50, or an automatic built-in digital ND filter, as simply I don't have time to swap-in/out a physical ND filter, and this FE 100-400 GM doesn't have a drop-in filter (why cannot be designed in that way as super-tele lenses?).

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

No account anymore · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Magnar W said:

I don't forget anything.

Exposure is aperture and shutter speed, balanced to match the light reflecting off the subject. The reflection is the same, no matter using a 24 mm or 400 mm lens, so you use the same shutter speed and aperture value.

ISO doesn't add or reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor. But of cause, you need to compensate for the ISO setting.

Click to expand...

So add/reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor doesn't affect total exposure?

Exposure is about the light hitting the subject. On a sunny day with steady light, you will use the same exposure for a white, red or black car or airplane.

PWPhotography said:
Exposure is the triangle of aperture, shutter and ISO that judged by histogram.

The histogram is the result of the light the subject reflects, and the exposure. Also, read what I wrote about ISO setting.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

In such cases the light is different, so the exposure need to be adjusted. This has nothing to do with different focal lengts needing different aperture values when the shutter speed is fixed.

Click to expand...

That seems contradict yourself as you admitted "so the exposure need to be adjusted".

When the light is different, sure exposure has to be different unless compensated for with ISO-setting (pushing exposure for the less bright scene).

For a subject receiving the same amount of light, focal length does NOT affect the aperture value with when the shutter speed (and ISO value) is fixed.

PWPhotography said:
I shoot the type of airplanes at the same shutter such as 1/180 for helicopter and 1/1600 for jet planes. then at 100mm and 400mm if I shotot both at F5.6, ISO is different to accommodate different amount of light that resulted to different exposure as you agreed.

You compensate for the ISO setting.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

My take is: Expose according to the light source, using manual settings. Fixed ISO, never ever auto ISO. Then there is no need for alternative exposures, not even when photographing a white dressed bride or a black dressed groom, no matter bright sunshine or dull cloudy days.

Click to expand...

OK for landscape type but not practical in airshow for example.

Why not? I use this strategy for any type of action photography. There are many different exposure strategies that work well.

PWPhotography said:
[ … ] light and FL can change dramatically.

Exposure for the main subject changes with light, not because you put a different lens on the camera.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Magnar W said:
PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

I don't forget anything.

Exposure is aperture and shutter speed, balanced to match the light reflecting off the subject. The reflection is the same, no matter using a 24 mm or 400 mm lens, so you use the same shutter speed and aperture value.

ISO doesn't add or reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor. But of cause, you need to compensate for the ISO setting.

Click to expand...

So add/reduce the amount of light hitting the sensor doesn't affect total exposure?

Click to expand...

Exposure is about the light hitting the subject.

For our perspective, exposure is how a camera sensor records the light of a scene, not just a subject in the scene.

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

https://photographylife.com/what-is-exposure-triangle

Member said:
On a sunny day with steady light, you will use the same exposure for a white, red or black car or airplane.

The same as above your camera will record different total exposure on the entire scene unless you use manual exposure, that will result different ISO if aperture and shutter are the same. To me it's a different exposure.

Member said:
Member said:

Exposure is the triangle of aperture, shutter and ISO that judged by histogram.

Click to expand...

The histogram is the result of the light the subject reflects, and the exposure. Also, read what I wrote about ISO setting.

Histogram is the exposure indicator the camera sensor sees the scene.

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

In such cases the light is different, so the exposure need to be adjusted. This has nothing to do with different focal lengts needing different aperture values when the shutter speed is fixed.

Click to expand...

That seems contradict yourself as you admitted "so the exposure need to be adjusted".

Click to expand...

When the light is different, sure exposure has to be different unless compensated for with ISO-setting (pushing exposure for the less bright scene).

Different AOV results different light exposures on the same scene if need to exposure correctly.

Member said:
For a subject receiving the same amount of light, focal length does NOT affect the aperture value with when the shutter speed (and ISO value) is fixed.

Why you keep separating a subject from entire scene? You exposure on entire scene not a subject in the scene. Even spot-exposure still not on a pixel but just a narrowed area of the entire scene. With today's much better DR sensor, such precised spot-exposure is much less needed as it will sacrifice entire picture in either underexposed or overexposed and you can lift shadow or recover highlight much easily and cleanly than before. In airshows with 5D3 before I used to set +1/3 EV as lifting shadow is no good but now -1/3 EV on Sony that is 2/3 EV difference, quite a big deal.

Member said:
Member said:

I shoot the type of airplanes at the same shutter such as 1/180 for helicopter and 1/1600 for jet planes. then at 100mm and 400mm if I shotot both at F5.6, ISO is different to accommodate different amount of light that resulted to different exposure as you agreed.

Click to expand...

You compensate for the ISO setting.

Again ISO is part of exposure triangle.

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

My take is: Expose according to the light source, using manual settings. Fixed ISO, never ever auto ISO. Then there is no need for alternative exposures, not even when photographing a white dressed bride or a black dressed groom, no matter bright sunshine or dull cloudy days.

Click to expand...

OK for landscape type but not practical in airshow for example.

Click to expand...

Why not? I use this strategy for any type of action photography. There are many different exposure strategies that work well.

Give a try, you don't have time adjust that will result many either severely underexposed or overexposed photos.

Auto-ISO has its purpose not a dummy feature. Sony cameras lack of those features,

ISO 50 part of auto-ISO. And like Nikon move native lowest ISO to 64 and create a fake ISO 32 (Nikon did that).

Lack of Safe-Shift feature under Av/Tv/M mode. Once enabled it should override your default setting such as even at ISO 100, F6.3 and 1/200 for example, camera should automatically adjust other parameters under specific mode to avoid over or under exposure. Canon and Nikon DSLRs have this feature.

I had a ground of photos overexposure in airshow because of this lacking - auto ISO, F6.3 (as want to stop down a bit not always F5.6), then under given shutter that F6.3 is locked that cannot be automatically shifted.

Member said:
Member said:

[ … ] light and FL can change dramatically.

Click to expand...

Exposure for the main subject changes with light, not because you put a different lens on the camera.

Again exposure is triangle of aperture, shutter and ISO. Different FL results different light condition on entire scene, therefore exposure will be different.

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

No account anymore · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

With the exposure triangle model, you have to compensate for ISO setting!

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

On a sunny day with steady light, you will use the same exposure for a white, red or black car or airplane.

Click to expand...

The same as above your camera will record different total exposure on the entire scene unless you use manual exposure, that will result different ISO if aperture and shutter are the same. To me it's a different exposure.

The camera meters reflected light, and tries to average the exposure from this measurement. This is not very precise, and will often lead to bad exposures. If you want to measure for a correct exposure, use an incident light meter.

PWPhotography said:
Histogram is the exposure indicator the camera sensor sees the scene.

The histogram is a graph that visualize tone distribution in a photograph.

PWPhotography said:
Why you keep separating a subject from entire scene? You exposure on entire scene not a subject in the scene. Even spot-exposure still not on a pixel but just a narrowed area of the entire scene. With today's much better DR sensor, such precised spot-exposure is much less needed as it will sacrifice entire picture in either underexposed or overexposed and you can lift shadow or recover highlight much easily and cleanly than before. In airshows with 5D3 before I used to set +1/3 EV as lifting shadow is no good but now -1/3 EV on Sony that is 2/3 EV difference, quite a big deal.

Your claim was that different focal lengt affected aperture value when shutter speed is fixed. I understand that this might be true for different scenes, but NOT for a given subject.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

Why not? I use this strategy for any type of action photography. There are many different exposure strategies that work well.

Click to expand...

Give a try, you don't have time adjust that will result many either severely underexposed or overexposed photos.

I use manual exposure to avoid bad exposures, and to reduce post processing to a minimum. When using auto exposure, the brightness of the pictures is all over the place, since the camera measures reflected light, and not the brightness of the light source.

MILC man · Jul 26, 2018

mikehookipa said:
Hey guys

I've owned a 70-200mm F2.8 (Canon USM ii) for years. Amazing lens. So it was obvious to get the Sony 70-200mm F2.8.

However, the 400mm is actually what I need since I want to shoot landscape and surfing with it. I'm kind of a lens noob. The only difference besides zoom is low light capability and bokeh right?

that and better p.q. with a prime.

you are on maui?

mikehookipa said:
Is there any other difference between these 2 lenses? I'm leaning towards the 100-400mm F4.5 now.

as others have mentioned, you'll have to add tc for surfing, so you'll be at f/8 at least with the 100-400.

the only cost-effective way around adding tc is to adapt one of the 150-600 tamron/sigma zooms, so you can be at f/6.3 instead of f/8... I suspect that the p.q. isn't as good at the fe100-400+tc, but that fractional f-stop difference is very helpful for maintaining shutter speed, which should be at 1/2000th or higher whenever possible.

maybe a used sigma 150-600, with the mc-11 on an a9 body.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Magnar W said:
PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Member said:
With the exposure triangle model, you have to compensate for ISO setting!

That translate into total exposure. ISO is part of exposure triangle not just duo of aperture and shutter.

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

On a sunny day with steady light, you will use the same exposure for a white, red or black car or airplane.

Click to expand...

The same as above your camera will record different total exposure on the entire scene unless you use manual exposure, that will result different ISO if aperture and shutter are the same. To me it's a different exposure.

Click to expand...

The camera meters reflected light, and tries to average the exposure from this measurement. This is not very precise, and will often lead to bad exposures. If you want to measure for a correct exposure, use an incident light meter.

Reflect total exposure. At different ISO, your camera metering indicator will suggest different shutter (Av mode) or aperture (Tv mode).

Member said:
Member said:

Histogram is the exposure indicator the camera sensor sees the scene.

Click to expand...

The histogram is a graph that visualize tone distribution in a photograph.

I didn't say incorrectly

Histogram is the exposure indicator the camera sensor sees the scene.

Member said:
Member said:

Why you keep separating a subject from entire scene? You exposure on entire scene not a subject in the scene. Even spot-exposure still not on a pixel but just a narrowed area of the entire scene. With today's much better DR sensor, such precised spot-exposure is much less needed as it will sacrifice entire picture in either underexposed or overexposed and you can lift shadow or recover highlight much easily and cleanly than before. In airshows with 5D3 before I used to set +1/3 EV as lifting shadow is no good but now -1/3 EV on Sony that is 2/3 EV difference, quite a big deal.

Click to expand...

Your claim was that different focal lengt affected aperture value when shutter speed is fixed. I understand that this might be true for different scenes, but NOT for a given subject.

Again, different FL = different scene that result different exposure on entire scene. You exposure on a scene not a single subject even under spot-exposure.

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

Why not? I use this strategy for any type of action photography. There are many different exposure strategies that work well.

Click to expand...

Give a try, you don't have time adjust that will result many either severely underexposed or overexposed photos.

Click to expand...

I use manual exposure to avoid bad exposures, and to reduce post processing to a minimum. When using auto exposure, the brightness of the pictures is all over the place, since the camera measures reflected light, and not the brightness of the light source.

As I said give a try with manual exposure in an airshow. I have a quite different experience that Sony cameras have very accurate exposure, noticeably more accurate than Canon DSLRs I have used a decade. I completely trust my A9 and A7r III auto-ISO that exposure correctly on a scene. These days with great DR of Sony sensors I only use default metering mode, no longer use spot-exposure anymore.

I use auto-ISO is on need not on my preference. I have to use auto-ISO in such event such as airshow that best to me.

But I'd suggest let's move on - we might have different understanding of exposure. We both know how to take photos. This debate is off-topic and let's return to OP.

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

jiulin · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Hank Radt said:

mikehookipa said:

No idea what F4 at 1/1000 looks like on a cloudy day (worst case scenario).

Click to expand...

Easy enough to find out - take one of your existing lenses outside next time it is cloudy and take some shots at f4.5, f5.6 and, if you're considering one of the TCs, increase these by one and two stops...

Click to expand...

Just bear in mind that different FL at the same aperture will have different exposure. 24mm, 70mm, 200mm and 400mm at the same F4.5 or F5.6 could have very different shutter speed that turns to total exposure as AOV is very different and entire scene is very different. 24mm will have lots of sky and nearby environment while 400mm may just covers a remote surfer and his body.

chimbos_matt · Jul 26, 2018

Here are some sample shoots of the 100-400 of my kids surfing.

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Matthew
__________________

Iliah Borg · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

By definition, ISO setting is not a part of exposure.

ISO setting is a lightness helper. One is to chose the maximum exposure he can afford first, and only after that he is to set ISO speed to brighten the image without clipping important highlights.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Iliah Borg said:
PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Click to expand...

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

Varying ISO will also need to adjust shutter or aperture to get the same total exposure.

Iliah Borg said:
What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

Yes it's exposure.

Iliah Borg said:
"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

Not sure if I understand you. You mean ISO 1600 is not nosier than ISO 100 if I shoot latter on tripod?

Iliah Borg said:
By definition, ISO setting is not a part of exposure.

what definition? ISO is part of exposure triangle.

exposure triangle theory is real and correct.

Iliah Borg said:
ISO setting is a lightness helper. One is to chose the maximum exposure he can afford first, and only after that he is to set ISO speed to brighten the image without clipping important highlights.

Maybe but affects total exposure. One thing I don't understand people like you separate brightness from exposure. To me just exposure no such brightness by judging histogram.

By using ISO 50, effectively reduces aperture one-stop from ISO 100 to avoid exceeds F11 where PDAF stop working. As I said I wish Sony has fake ISO 25 and added into auto-ISO.

Iliah Borg said:
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http://www.libraw.org/

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

Philnw2 · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
I own both Sony GM versions as I used to own both Canon versions.

These two lenses don't substitute each other.

100-400 is much better than 70-200 + 2.0x TC in sharpness and AF speed (especially in Canon version but Sony AF system is different so less in AF speed impact).

100-400 for outdoor sport, wildlife, airshow, motorsport, zoo etc, so definitely better in surfing, especially you can add 1.4x or 2.0x TC.

70-200 for indoor sport, event, close-distance wildlife, portrait, landscape etc, better for landscape as 400mm maybe too long in most scenes. 70-200 zoom is my 2nd lens in landscape although I usually carry f4.0 version as f2.8 version is just too big and heavy.

Both are not the popular choices for landscape as usually wider angle is much more popular.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Philnw2 said:
PWPhotography said:

I own both Sony GM versions as I used to own both Canon versions.

These two lenses don't substitute each other.

100-400 is much better than 70-200 + 2.0x TC in sharpness and AF speed (especially in Canon version but Sony AF system is different so less in AF speed impact).

100-400 for outdoor sport, wildlife, airshow, motorsport, zoo etc, so definitely better in surfing, especially you can add 1.4x or 2.0x TC.

70-200 for indoor sport, event, close-distance wildlife, portrait, landscape etc, better for landscape as 400mm maybe too long in most scenes. 70-200 zoom is my 2nd lens in landscape although I usually carry f4.0 version as f2.8 version is just too big and heavy.

Both are not the popular choices for landscape as usually wider angle is much more popular.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

Click to expand...

I have the A-mount 70-400 G2 and the 70-200 f4. If i was only allowed to have one of them, it would be the 70-400. However, the 70-200 f4 would be the more comfortable lens to carry around in a large indoor event, crowds, etc. The 70-400 g2 is not a comfortable lens for me to carry around and shoot hand-holding for longer periods.

70-400 G2 like other 100-400 zoom is much heavier. You mean Sony FE 70-200G/4.0 OSS as don't aware there is A-mount version (but I don't familiar A-mount lenses at all). This lens is still good despite a bit softer at edges/wide open at 200mm side. 70mm side is very sharp.

Philnw2 said:
I did use the 70-200 f4 for a Wearable Art fashion show, and it was impressive how the models on the runway could be tracked.

I shot those model photos in last year's pdn PhotoPlus Expo with this lens, and seem no problem in sharpness at 200mm side. Eye-AF works great. Will bring much lighter Batis 135 or heavier FE 70-200 GM in this year's even in late Oct, plus will play new toys from Nikon and maybe Canon FF MLs

https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums/72157637021942154

Philnw2 said:
--
Phil B

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Iliah Borg · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Click to expand...

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

Click to expand...

Varying ISO will also need to adjust shutter or aperture to get the same total exposure.

Is 1/400 f/5.6 ISO 400 the same exposure as 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 800?

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

Click to expand...

Yes it's exposure.

ISO setting is not a part of exposure, have a look at the definition:

"In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds"

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

ISO standard 12232:2006 titled "Photography — Digital still cameras — Determination of exposure index, ISO speed ratings, standard output sensitivity, and recommended exposure index" contains this:

"The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance."

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I understand you. You mean ISO 1600 is not nosier than ISO 100 if I shoot latter on tripod?

Exactly. It is often less noisy, given the exposure is the same. Also, it may clip important highlights. Try it, and you will see it is true. More noise is because of the lower exposure, not because of higher ISO speed setting.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

By definition, ISO setting is not a part of exposure.

Click to expand...

what definition?

By the definition of ISO speed in the ISO standard 12232:2006 and CIPA DC-004.

PWPhotography said:
exposure triangle theory is real and correct.

No, it is a myth and a cult. ISO speed is not a part of exposure. It is only a lightness helper.

PWPhotography said:
One thing I don't understand people like you separate brightness from exposure.

Because lightness, brightness, and exposure are different physical qualities:

- brightness can be adjusted by something like the brightness knob on your monitor.

- lightness can be adjusted by multiplying image data by some number ("exposure" slider is an example of control in a raw converter that does just that - think of it as of adjusting exposure time under enlarger, not like adjusting "taking" exposure).

- exposure is a measurement of light, taken at the time when the shutter is opened.

Understanding what ISO speed is is important when selecting exposure strategy and maximizing image quality.

Quality-wise, bumping ISO is no compensation for decreasing exposure.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Iliah Borg said:
PWPhotography said:

Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Click to expand...

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

Click to expand...

Varying ISO will also need to adjust shutter or aperture to get the same total exposure.

Click to expand...

Is 1/400 f/5.6 ISO 400 the same exposure as 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 800?

Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

Click to expand...

Yes it's exposure.

Click to expand...

ISO setting is not a part of exposure, have a look at the definition:

"In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds"

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

and scene luminance

where ISO kicks in. High ISO increases scene luminance by another way.

Iliah Borg said:
ISO standard 12232:2006 titled "Photography — Digital still cameras — Determination of exposure index, ISO speed ratings, standard output sensitivity, and recommended exposure index" contains this:

"The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance."

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

I will not take Wiki as the ultimate authority. Exposure triangle is widely accepted in photography world.

https://photographylife.com/what-is-exposure-triangle

At ISO 100, at the same aperture I just need half shutter speed to receive the same amount of total light collection - exposure from ISO 200, right?

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I understand you. You mean ISO 1600 is not nosier than ISO 100 if I shoot latter on tripod?

Click to expand...

Exactly. It is often less noisy, given the exposure is the same. Also, it may clip important highlights. Try it, and you will see it is true. More noise is because of the lower exposure, not because of higher ISO speed setting.

LOL ISO 1600 is as clean as ISO 100 if exposed the same which means at ISO 100 shutter is 4-stop faster? I don't think so.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

By definition, ISO setting is not a part of exposure.

Click to expand...

what definition?

Click to expand...

By the definition of ISO speed in the ISO standard 12232:2006 and CIPA DC-004.

Yes

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

exposure triangle theory is real and correct.

Click to expand...

No, it is a myth and a cult. ISO speed is not a part of exposure. It is only a lightness helper.

We use for total exposure control.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

One thing I don't understand people like you separate brightness from exposure.

Click to expand...

Because lightness, brightness, and exposure are different physical qualities:

- brightness can be adjusted by something like the brightness knob on your monitor.

I don't see brightness (that your guys invented) but only exposure. Sure you can adjust in LR for example. Monitor brightness is a complete different thing.

Iliah Borg said:
- lightness can be adjusted by multiplying image data by some number ("exposure" slider is an example of control in a raw converter that does just that - think of it as of adjusting exposure time under enlarger, not like adjusting "taking" exposure).

- exposure is a measurement of light, taken at the time when the shutter is opened.

Exposure is total light collected on sensor during curtain opens and closes.

There is no difference in adjusting exposure or on your term brightness in LR, therefore LR only has exposure bar but no such brightness bar.

Iliah Borg said:
Understanding what ISO speed is is important when selecting exposure strategy and maximizing image quality.

Understand very well. I want to shoot at base native ISO 100 as much as could or hope Sony will also move to native ISO 64, that translate will have a fake ISO 32 as D850, and add into auto-ISO, I much needed it for technical reason for avoiding very high F number under slow shutter - PDAF still working at F11 or below and no diffraction.

Iliah Borg said:
Quality-wise, bumping ISO is no compensation for decreasing exposure.

We only use high ISO if necessary. And in reality no sensors are true ISO-Invariance

Iliah Borg said:
--
http://www.libraw.org/

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

Iliah Borg · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Click to expand...

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

Click to expand...

Varying ISO will also need to adjust shutter or aperture to get the same total exposure.

Click to expand...

Is 1/400 f/5.6 ISO 400 the same exposure as 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 800?

PWPhotography said:

PWPhotography said:

What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

Click to expand...

Yes it's exposure.

Click to expand...

ISO setting is not a part of exposure, have a look at the definition:

"In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds"

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

ISO standard 12232:2006 titled "Photography — Digital still cameras — Determination of exposure index, ISO speed ratings, standard output sensitivity, and recommended exposure index" contains this:

"The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance."

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

Click to expand...

I will not take Wiki as the ultimate authority.

That's why I also quoted from the relevant ISO standard.

PWPhotography said:
Exposure triangle is widely accepted in photography world.

So was flat earth theory throughout the mankind.

PWPhotography said:
At ISO 100, at the same aperture I just need half shutter speed to receive the same amount of total light collection - exposure from ISO 200, right?

ISO speed setting doesn't affect light collection. Only those factors listed in the definition of exposure do.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

PWPhotography said:

PWPhotography said:

"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I understand you. You mean ISO 1600 is not nosier than ISO 100 if I shoot latter on tripod?

Click to expand...

Exactly. It is often less noisy, given the exposure is the same. Also, it may clip important highlights. Try it, and you will see it is true. More noise is because of the lower exposure, not because of higher ISO speed setting.

Click to expand...

LOL ISO 1600 is as clean as ISO 100 if exposed the same which means at ISO 100 shutter is 4-stop faster? I don't think so.

1/100 f/5.6 ISO 100 and 1/100 f/5.6 ISO 1600 - try and see.

PWPhotography said:
Exposure is total light collected on sensor during shutter opens and closes.

No. Look at exposure definition.

You can't change exposure after the exposure was taken. Simple as that.

That's why you can't change taking exposure in any raw converter, it is too late.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Iliah Borg said:
PWPhotography said:

Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Iliah Borg said:

PWPhotography said:

Magnar W said:

PWPhotography said:

Again, mainstream photography world agreed on Exposure Triangle

Click to expand...

How does ISO setting increase or decrease light on the sensor?

Click to expand...

We are talking about exposure as ISO is part of triangle that controls the total light collected on the sensor.

Click to expand...

In that "triangle" model varying ISO you change the exposure and change "the total light collected on the sensor".

Click to expand...

Varying ISO will also need to adjust shutter or aperture to get the same total exposure.

Click to expand...

Is 1/400 f/5.6 ISO 400 the same exposure as 1/800 f/5.6 ISO 800?

Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

What is the constant in the "exposure triangle" model, is it exposure? - no, it is not.

Click to expand...

Yes it's exposure.

Click to expand...

ISO setting is not a part of exposure, have a look at the definition:

"In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds"

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

ISO standard 12232:2006 titled "Photography — Digital still cameras — Determination of exposure index, ISO speed ratings, standard output sensitivity, and recommended exposure index" contains this:

"The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance."

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

Click to expand...

I will not take Wiki as the ultimate authority.

Click to expand...

That's why I also quoted from the relevant ISO standard.

as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance

So not just first two parameters. ISO can change last luminescence per sensor perspective - more or less sensitive.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

Exposure triangle is widely accepted in photography world.

Click to expand...

So was flat earth theory throughout the mankind.

Thought someone still thinks earth is flat ;-)

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

At ISO 100, at the same aperture I just need half shutter speed to receive the same amount of total light collection - exposure from ISO 200, right?

Click to expand...

ISO speed setting doesn't affect light collection. Only those factors listed in the definition of exposure do.

Wow, at half shutter speed from ISO 100 to 200 doesn't change light collection? hum.

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

Iliah Borg said:

"Exposure triangle" is a misnomer, and a misleading construct. It leaves an impression that raising ISO setting results in increased noise, while in fact it results in more highlight clipping and same or less noise.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I understand you. You mean ISO 1600 is not nosier than ISO 100 if I shoot latter on tripod?

Click to expand...

Exactly. It is often less noisy, given the exposure is the same. Also, it may clip important highlights. Try it, and you will see it is true. More noise is because of the lower exposure, not because of higher ISO speed setting.

Click to expand...

LOL ISO 1600 is as clean as ISO 100 if exposed the same which means at ISO 100 shutter is 4-stop faster? I don't think so.

Click to expand...

1/100 f/5.6 ISO 100 and 1/100 f/5.6 ISO 1600 - try and see.

Not the way I shoot. I shoot 1/25, f5.6 ISO 100 instead of latter as otherwise they are not in the same exposure, now you tell me if latter is as clean as the way I shoot? ;-)

Iliah Borg said:
Iliah Borg said:

Exposure is total light collected on sensor during shutter opens and closes.

Click to expand...

No. Look at exposure definition.

Exposure Triangle. Or even according to wiki - so not just on the first 2 parameters.

as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance

Iliah Borg said:
You can't change exposure after the exposure was taken. Simple as that.

Adjust exposure in software. Maybe you should contact Adobe etc to change the bar to Brightness ;-)

Iliah Borg said:
That's why you can't change taking exposure in any raw converter, it is too late.

Sure, nobody arguying that, underexposed or overexposed photos are done deal, but you still can adjust. I am trying to expose at my controlled level as possible, and I set even -1/3 EV default these days. All my photos are underexposed -1 to -1/3 EV purposely as Sony sensors are very good in DR. Highlight preservation is my priority.

Iliah Borg said:
--
http://www.libraw.org/

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

No account anymore · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
Iliah Borg said:

Do you see ISO speed in that definition?

Click to expand...

I will not take Wiki as the ultimate authority. Exposure triangle is widely accepted in photography world.

Then check other reliable sources.

PWPhotography said:
https://photographylife.com/what-is-exposure-triangle

Or do you find a blog more reliable?

PWPhotography said:
At ISO 100, at the same aperture I just need half shutter speed to receive the same amount of total light collection - exposure from ISO 200, right?

No. At ISO 200 there is half the amount of light hitting the sensor with the settings you describe, since the image is brightened (ISO doubled, you get a noisier result).

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

Exactly. It is often less noisy, given the exposure is the same. Also, it may clip important highlights. Try it, and you will see it is true. More noise is because of the lower exposure, not because of higher ISO speed setting.

Click to expand...

LOL ISO 1600 is as clean as ISO 100 if exposed the same which means at ISO 100 shutter is 4-stop faster? I don't think so.

It is about exposure strategy, not ISO setting.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

No, it is a myth and a cult. ISO speed is not a part of exposure. It is only a lightness helper.

Click to expand...

We use for total exposure control.

No one have claimed anything else. The problem arises when you don't stay to the definition of exposure.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

Because lightness, brightness, and exposure are different physical qualities:

- brightness can be adjusted by something like the brightness knob on your monitor.

Click to expand...

I don't see brightness (that your guys invented) but only exposure. Sure you can adjust in LR for example. Monitor brightness is a complete different thing.

When you have taken a picture, exposure can NOT be altered afterwards. But the file can be brightened, darkened, etc. This is not exposure, though, according to the definition of exposure. This is pushing exposure data at post processing.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

- lightness can be adjusted by multiplying image data by some number ("exposure" slider is an example of control in a raw converter that does just that - think of it as of adjusting exposure time under enlarger, not like adjusting "taking" exposure).

- exposure is a measurement of light, taken at the time when the shutter is opened.

Click to expand...

Exposure is total light collected on sensor during shutter opens and closes.

There is no difference in adjusting exposure or on your term brightness in LR, therefore LR only has exposure bar but no such brightness bar.

Obviously you are mixing several aspects of exposure (shutter & aperture), ISO setting (gain), post processing, etc. When discussing, we better stay with accepted definitions instead of what we think is correct.

PWPhotography said:
PWPhotography said:

Quality-wise, bumping ISO is no compensation for decreasing exposure.

Click to expand...

PWPhotography said:
We only use high ISO if necessary. And in reality so sensors are true ISO-Invariance

No, not fully ISO-invariance. With Sony A7 II and III series/A9 cameras there is "dual gain" going on, so to get the most out of the exposure you have to chose different strategies for ISO settings lower than 640, and for ISO values from 640 and higher.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

I don't want to waste my time in endless arguing in theory which I am not interested. We have a different understanding of exposure that is fine so move on. But I doubt you will take 1/100, f5.6 and ISO 1600 photo if it can be taken at 1/25, f5.6 and ISO 100 photo, that only matters.

You are better to open a new thread in the Open Forum, not derail this thread which is nothing to do with exposure theory.

We all know each other we know how to take photos. So let's return to OP topic please.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

No account anymore · Jul 26, 2018

PWPhotography said:
I doubt you will take 1/100, f5.6 and ISO 1600 photo if it can be taken at 1/25, f5.6 and ISO 100 photo, that only matters.

No one have made such a claim.

PWPhotography · Jul 26, 2018

Magnar W said:
PWPhotography said:

I doubt you will take 1/100, f5.6 and ISO 1600 photo if it can be taken at 1/25, f5.6 and ISO 100 photo, that only matters.

Click to expand...

No one have made such a claim.

Iliah Borg has such claim to suggest ISO 1600 is as clean as or even cleaner than ISO 100 ;-)

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums

100-400mm F4.5 vs 70-200mm F2.8 - for landscape + surfing

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