1DS vs. Medium Format For Wedding

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555 flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to digital.

What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in advance for everyones help.

Pete

I am using the 1ds with a 550 EX when Im not using strobes...
But....
Transition....

I' wouldnt want to be the wedding you totally switched over on. Work out the kinks on Candids with the Mamiya...

I'm sure you never nailed every picture the first time you used your RB67...so don't expect it on the 1DS. Its a camera you have to learn and know what to do in a particular situation to get the shot you want...

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Have you had any problems shooting inside a poorly lit church? I also own a Canon EOS-3 with a 550 EX. My pictures from the EOS 3 really suck compared to my Mamiya. My EOS 3 with the 550 EX has a huge problem shooting White wedding dresses. It wants to expose for the dress and then the facial tones are REALLY dark. Have you had any problems with the 1DS doing this? My EOS 3 and 550 Ex do not have problems outside in the sunshine but inside it is another story. Are you using manual camera settings or one of the auto settings for the 1DS?

Pete

Matt Huesmann said:

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

First off, an RB67 is a little overkill and cumbersome for weddings. I love my Mamiya 6 for most candids and use a bronica SQ for formals. I also use a D60 which can give you some very good files. Are you shooting with just one flash on the camera? That alone will give you very flat looking pictures.

The biggest problem with digital is not how well it resolves compared to the film , but how critical the exposure is...1/3 stop over is all it can take w/o blowing out highlights, 2/3 stops under is the limit for losing critical detail and getting a picture that sparkles. No amount of fiddling or post processing will bring these files back to a sparkling picture.

When manufacturers can produce the firmware that will give you a one stop leeway either way, digital will be much better for the wedding pro.

echelonphotographers.com

Peteness, have you been using the "FEL" button*? That makes all of the difference in the world. Put the spot on the brides face and you will get very close on most of your shots.

peteness said:

Pete

Matt Huesmann said:

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.davidworleyphotography.com

Yes I have used the "FEL" button. You are very right. It does much better. However, during a processional or during a dance you do not have the time to hit both the "FEL" button as well as take the picture you are indending to take. Sometimes the couples are walking so fast or you see a kiss from Dad to Daughter that you do not even have enough time to even take a picture none the less hit the "FEL" button. Is this anyone having troubles witht he 1DS in this situation?

Pete

Davidlw said:

peteness said:

Pete

Matt Huesmann said:

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.davidworleyphotography.com

Click to expand...

peteness said:

[...] However, during a processional or during a dance you
do not have the time to hit both the "FEL" button as well as take
the picture you are indending to take. Sometimes the couples are
walking so fast or you see a kiss from Dad to Daughter that you do
not even have enough time to even take a picture none the less hit
the "FEL" button. Is this anyone having troubles witht he 1DS in
this situation?

Click to expand...

I don't like weddings, but...

If you've got enough time to adjust for a manual flash, you should have enough time to FEL. If the subject distance changes, you need to re-FEL (or adjust your manual flash output). If the subject distance stays the same, you can use one FEL (or one manual flash setting) for a series of photographs. The trick with this last is that you can set the duration of the timer for the FEL setting, and in this case you need to increase it so one FEL "lasts" longer. The catch with all this is that FEL sometimes confuses the subject.

I think some manual-flash people find it hard to adjust to the E-TTL system; there are lots of threads on that. You can of course use any flash gun you like, so really it's a moot point. E-TTL is the dogz though.

--
Phil
http://www.wigglesworld.btinternet.co.uk/

With the Hasselblads, I used a Metz 45CL-4 with excellent results. Mounted it on a StroboFrame high above the camera, set it and the camera on f/8.0, pre-set the focus distance of my 50mm lens to about 3 meters, and shot all my pre-ceremony aisle shots this way. Since I'm not familiar with your Sunpak 555, I don't know how this would compare with my Metz, but the Metz gave very accurate exposures under these conditions.

With the 1Ds, I've used both the Metz and the Canon 550. Outdoors the 550 is a joy to use -- automatically providing just the right amount of fill. Indoors, under very low light conditions, it's sometimes tough for the 1Ds to lock onto focus. Catching the bride, and others, coming down a dark aisle is hit and miss. However, with a reasonable amount of light (I know that's a vague term), the 1Ds, coupled with the 550 will find focus.

I've tried using the Metz with the 1Ds in a fashion similar to how I used it with the Hasselblads, but found that pre-setting the focus was not reliable due to the ease in which the focus ring could be inadvertantly moved, thereby causing the focus to be way off. Sometimes when attempting to zoom, for purposes of composition, I found myself moving the focus ring, as well as the zoom ring. For the aisle shots, I was primarily using a 28-70mm f/2.8 Canon. Maybe with a prime lens it wouldn't be so much of a problem.

Regarding image comparisons between the Hasselblad and 1Ds, clients couldn't pick one image from the other in my portfolio, at least up to 11X14. Never compared anything larger, but suspect there would be no problems with 16X20 images from a 1Ds. Even though your negative is a bit larger than my 6X6's, my guess (and, it is a guess) is the 1Ds would stack up very well with your RB67. It certainly is much easier to handle, physically.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Thank you Calvin for responding. I set my Sunpak 555 on manual and set it to full power. I set my shutter at 60 and use f/8.0. The subjects are about 15 ft. down the aisle when I take the pictures. This depends on height and speed of the person walking down the aisle(minature bride and ring bearer seem to walk MUCH faster). I usually focus on a pew before the processional and when the person reaches that point I take the picture. If I miss that then I can do a quick focus on the person and still take the picture a second later(have to be quick). I end up with very nice pictures.

I can see your point with the zoom lense. I have the 28-70mm as well as the 70-200IS. I have it teamed with a EOS-3. I like the 550 in the daytime/outdoors. Get it inside and I have a lot of troubles.

Have you tried shutting off the ETTL and just using TTL? How about just using manual power? How does it do with White wedding dresses?
What program setting are you using on the camera? Thanks again for your help.

Pete

Calvin Wilson said:

With the 1Ds, I've used both the Metz and the Canon 550. Outdoors
the 550 is a joy to use -- automatically providing just the right
amount of fill. Indoors, under very low light conditions, it's
sometimes tough for the 1Ds to lock onto focus. Catching the
bride, and others, coming down a dark aisle is hit and miss.
However, with a reasonable amount of light (I know that's a vague
term), the 1Ds, coupled with the 550 will find focus.

I've tried using the Metz with the 1Ds in a fashion similar to how
I used it with the Hasselblads, but found that pre-setting the
focus was not reliable due to the ease in which the focus ring
could be inadvertantly moved, thereby causing the focus to be way
off. Sometimes when attempting to zoom, for purposes of
composition, I found myself moving the focus ring, as well as the
zoom ring. For the aisle shots, I was primarily using a 28-70mm
f/2.8 Canon. Maybe with a prime lens it wouldn't be so much of a
problem.

Regarding image comparisons between the Hasselblad and 1Ds, clients
couldn't pick one image from the other in my portfolio, at least up
to 11X14. Never compared anything larger, but suspect there would
be no problems with 16X20 images from a 1Ds. Even though your
negative is a bit larger than my 6X6's, my guess (and, it is a
guess) is the 1Ds would stack up very well with your RB67. It
certainly is much easier to handle, physically.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson

peteness said:

Hi everyone. I am a Wedding Photographer looking for some insight
on the 1DS. I currently am using a Mamiya RB67 with a Sunpak 555
flash. The pictures I am getting back from this setup are
flawless. I am using the 555 because of the ease of changing
manual flash power quickly(I always use manual flash powers). I
shoot in a lot of poorly lit churches. My questions are to anyone
out there who is familiar with the RB67 and has switched over to
digital.
What kind of on camera flash setup works the best for the 1DS? Has
anyone tried using a 555 with a 1DS? How is the 1DS handling
lowlight situations like shooting a processional? How are the
pictures from the 1DS comparing to Medium Format? Thanks in
advance for everyones help.

Pete

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I did the inside shooting with the Hasselblad and Metz in exactly the same manner you shoot with the Sunpak 555, except I don't shoot on full power. I shot on automatic with the f/ stop setting on f/8.0, both for the Metz and camera. Focused on a pew, just like you did.

With the 1Ds/Metz combination, I do the same thing -- set the camera on manual: f/8.0 (same as the Metz); shutter from 1/125 down to 1/8, depending on how much ambient light I'm trying to pick up in the exposure. This works very well as long as it's light enough that the 1Ds can focus -- actually, it does very well unless it's awfully dark.

When using the Canon 550 in dark situations, there is some focusing assistance, so the 550 is a better choice than the Metz when the light is very poor. So far, I haven't tried the 550 in either the 'manual' mode or the 'TTL' at a wedding. Typically, when I use it indoors, I simply set it on E-TTL and the 1Ds on 'Auto.' With these settings, I've had good luck with reasonably balanced exposures of the whites and blacks of wedding garb.

Yes, I know many folks think it blasphemous to use the 'auto' setting on any camera...I'm not one of them.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson

Thanks Calvin for responding. What ISO setting are you using on the 1DS? I use Kodak ISO 160NC film right now. Are your prints turning out good? As a finished product, part of my wedding package includes an album with 36 8X10's. They also get a 16X20 enlargement. Have you done any 16X20's with the 1DS? Thanks again.

Pete

Calvin Wilson said:

I did the inside shooting with the Hasselblad and Metz in exactly
the same manner you shoot with the Sunpak 555, except I don't shoot
on full power. I shot on automatic with the f/ stop setting on
f/8.0, both for the Metz and camera. Focused on a pew, just like
you did.

With the 1Ds/Metz combination, I do the same thing -- set the
camera on manual: f/8.0 (same as the Metz); shutter from 1/125 down
to 1/8, depending on how much ambient light I'm trying to pick up
in the exposure. This works very well as long as it's light enough
that the 1Ds can focus -- actually, it does very well unless it's
awfully dark.

When using the Canon 550 in dark situations, there is some focusing
assistance, so the 550 is a better choice than the Metz when the
light is very poor. So far, I haven't tried the 550 in either the
'manual' mode or the 'TTL' at a wedding. Typically, when I use it
indoors, I simply set it on E-TTL and the 1Ds on 'Auto.' With
these settings, I've had good luck with reasonably balanced
exposures of the whites and blacks of wedding garb.

Yes, I know many folks think it blasphemous to use the 'auto'
setting on any camera...I'm not one of them.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson

Click to expand...

On my 1Ds, I set the ISO on 100, very seldom ever change it. I used Kodak 160NC with my Hasselblads, as well.

I have not yet printed a 16X20 from my 1Ds files, but have done so with files from my lowly Canon D30 and the results were outstanding. I printed one for a customer whose family pictures I've been shooting for 14 years with my Hasselblads -- three weddings, birthdays, graduations, formal family photos, etc. The 16X20 from the D30 is one of their favorites.

I have no doubt that the 1Ds will produce spectacular 16X20 prints. I don't know what size print you would have to go to before the 1Ds would begin to fall short of the Hasselblad prints, but it would have to be larger than 16X20. Others may have more experience in this regard, as well as a different opinion.

In one of my previous posts, I said I had not used TTL flash with the 1Ds. Frankly, TTL is not an available shooting mode with the 1Ds, or any digital that I'm aware of, because TTL functions by reading the reflected light off the film plane for purposes of correct flash output. Obviously, digitals do not have film from which to reflect lilght. Apparently, reading reflected light off an imaging sensor is not the best way to handle flash exposure in the digital world.

King regards,
Calvin Wilson

Hi Calvin, Peteness et al,

Canon has produced several electronic flash that worked with their Canon digital camera in TTL mode. In full blast mode you've to adjust your F setting to correspond your distance but used it only for big group shuts. Your 1Ds (even a 10D in auto focus mode, shoot RAW because dim light this camera shine), 1Ds & 10D has several built-in light sensors to controlled your mounted flash light output in auto mode. It is actually not the imaging sensor (or films) but the penta or mirror prism that reflect the required light. You can also use regular electronic flash with light controlled sensor and your camera setting remain constant. It is good to know how others are working with their cameras but I always followed my own judgment with my own equipment with my own shutting conditions and learned to adjust what is necessary. Direct flash shooting is always flat, strong shadow & red eye but good for deep eye person. For close range shooting I used a 45 degree white reflector mounted on top of flash.

Andrew is correctly stated because Mamiya RB67 is medium format camera. I used it mounted on a heavy duty mono-pad with wheel lock in the studio for controlled environment shooting. I shoot with mirror up most of the time and I used 2 long release shutters. Just check your serial No. to mine: Mamiya RB67 body No. C19262, Mamiya-Sekor Lens f=127mm No. 14321, f=250mm No. 10799 & f=65mm No. 43822. Yes, you could shoot outdoor but in dim church you need portable flood lights. If waist level shooting is not required much I used a Prism Finder, Side Hand grip with shutter release & shoulder band/strap. For sure RB67 is a bulky, slow & heavy camera not suitable for fast action shooting, especially the highest shutter speed is 1/400.

While Mamiya does not manufacture digital backs, there are many available for Mamiya cameras through other manufactures:
http://www.mamiya.com/products.asp?id=1&id2=166 and

http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/PREventDetailPage.jsp?DBID=NEWS_547213 (this is a beauty to own, don't forget to click the 2 JPEG for your closer inspection).

Good luck guys,

Calvin Wilson said:

In one of my previous posts, I said I had not used TTL flash with
the 1Ds. Frankly, TTL is not an available shooting mode with the
1Ds, or any digital that I'm aware of, because TTL functions by
reading the reflected light off the film plane for purposes of
correct flash output. Obviously, digitals do not have film from
which to reflect lilght. Apparently, reading reflected light off an
imaging sensor is not the best way to handle flash exposure in the
digital world.

King regards,
Calvin Wilson

Click to expand...

The following was taken with a Canon 10D and 17-40mm f/4 L series lens. The 10D is a 6.3MP sensor and the 1Ds is an 11MP, so I am sure the same shot would be better with the 1Ds. The full frame shot was enlarged to 24x36 inches and the second image is an 8x10 crop of the 24x36 inch picture. I think you will see that 1 16x20 would be no problem for either a 10D or 1Ds.



and the 8x10 crop...

peteness said:

Pete

Calvin Wilson said:

I did the inside shooting with the Hasselblad and Metz in exactly
the same manner you shoot with the Sunpak 555, except I don't shoot
on full power. I shot on automatic with the f/ stop setting on
f/8.0, both for the Metz and camera. Focused on a pew, just like
you did.

With the 1Ds/Metz combination, I do the same thing -- set the
camera on manual: f/8.0 (same as the Metz); shutter from 1/125 down
to 1/8, depending on how much ambient light I'm trying to pick up
in the exposure. This works very well as long as it's light enough
that the 1Ds can focus -- actually, it does very well unless it's
awfully dark.

When using the Canon 550 in dark situations, there is some focusing
assistance, so the 550 is a better choice than the Metz when the
light is very poor. So far, I haven't tried the 550 in either the
'manual' mode or the 'TTL' at a wedding. Typically, when I use it
indoors, I simply set it on E-TTL and the 1Ds on 'Auto.' With
these settings, I've had good luck with reasonably balanced
exposures of the whites and blacks of wedding garb.

Yes, I know many folks think it blasphemous to use the 'auto'
setting on any camera...I'm not one of them.

Kind regards,
Calvin Wilson

Click to expand...

Click to expand...