Canon speaks about Out of Focus ...

JamesMor · Sep 17, 2003

Vern,

Well said! BTW, I find it irritating that a person's post history can determine if you know what your talking about or not.

The only time I worry about a person's post history is when it is their first post - or they have only registered and posted about one subject (usually something negative).

-JM

Vern Stevens said:
In your second paragraph you say Chuck Westfall said one thing,
which you use to establish the meaning of something different. I
see how that works now. Using Chuck's name to establish something
doesn't work unless it means the same thing, not what it can be
interpreted (or mis-interpreted) to mean.

Semantics are important in this case. If this is a problem that
EVERY AF camera has, singling out one and saying it's a problem is
misleading. Another analogy. Walmart Tea spoons have a problem
with eating soup. Now mind you, tea spoons can be used for eating
soup, but they don't function as well as soup spoons. In
non-misleading terms that means they don't really have a problem,
it means they have limitations. Now, if you have a soup spoon that
has a hole in it, and you can't eat soup with it, then you have a
problem. And if you have 1 out of 10 of these soup spoons going
out the door with holes in them, you have a quality control
problem. If the spoons came designed with a hole in them, then you
have a design problem. If they sell you a tea spoon, and call it a
soup spoon, that's false advertising.

I'm not saying the 10D is perfect, but I just haven't seen enough,
other than a relatively persistent few, to show me that it is a
design or systemic problem. Your own explanation of the limits of
all AF cameras demonstrates to me that it is limitations in the AF
technology, not problems. I see clear distinctions between the two
concepts, not simply what I choose to call it. If they were using
technology in which the AF function should work perfectly, and it
doesn't, that would be a problem. But if there different sensors
that have different performance levels, and they chose to put one
in the 10D that doesn't perform as well as others, but still
performs as it should, that is not a problem, it's a limitation.
When you buy less than the best, you save money at the cost of
features and performance.

If I wanted to simply use anecdotes as evidence, an overwhelming
number of people recently responded to two threads about 1) having
10D's with no problems, and 2) being satisfied with the performance
of their 10D's. The number of unique respondents to these two
threads far, far and away out number the unique complainers I have
seen. In my estimation, the 10D is the Accord of the DSLR world,
not the Corvette (1D) or the Town Car (1Ds).

I'll save us both some time. (okay, at least me) You take the last
word between us on the matter, because if it's more about a couple
of people who had "problems" (or didn't like the "limitations" of
the camera), it just ain't gonna work for me. Show me some
proportion, some percentages, then I'll discuss it some more.
Failing that, I've said my piece. And no, I'm not so egotistical
as to think anyone really cares about what I have to say on the
issue, just simple statement of how pointless I have seen this
topic become.

When I get my camera back, I'll be sure to post some sharp, well
focused images though. LOL....

VES

DavidP said:

You've only been registered here a month.

There have been quite a few people who have had to send their
cameras back more than once to Canon to get them fixed. I am one
of them. John Mankos is another. Mini-me is another. I can't
recall all of the names, but they are out there.

As far as the AF sensor being "too big", that's been established by
Chuck Westfall of Canon (though he'd never use the term "too big").
John Mankos also had quite a few threads that demonstrated this.
And, as I said, this "issue" affects every AF camera to a degree.
But as you make the AF sensor bigger, it will quite obviously
affect more and more images.

There are several different "AF issues" that have bee discussed on
this board and others. Probably the most-discussed one is that of
a miscalibrated AF. Are you even aware that some people have a
Service Manual CD for the 1D and D60 that let you adjust this
yourself?

If you want more "evolution" of an AF "issue", you can look into
old posts concerning how contrast, lighting, and color temperature
affects focusing.

My initial reply (to you, I think) that started all this was to say
that the 10D does have "issues" that are systemic to the entire
line. You may call them "limitations" if you wish. To those it
affects, it doesn't really matter. There's nothing that can be
done to fix these "issues" other than getting a different camera.
Some have even downgraded to the D60 to avoid this particular issue.

Click to expand...

--
My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a
Photographic English Composition course.

Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos,
composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven

DavidP #28649 · Sep 17, 2003

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6091629

OK, what caused this mis-focusing?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

JamesMor · Sep 17, 2003

DavidP said:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6091629

OK, what caused this mis-focusing?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Sep 17, 2003

I think the "accepted" explanation right now is that the AF sensor is getting confused because the contrast edge it's picking up is caused by the child's face and the background. And these two objects causing the contrast edge are at much different distances.

Now, remember that the actual AF square is 4x as large (areally) as what you see depicted in that image. Given that, there's no way to have the AF sensor just pick up the child's face, in order to get more accurate focus.

A D30/D60 (what the 10D "upgraded") doesn't have as large an AF sensor, and so should've focused just fine on that shot.

This is just one example of the "AF issue" I was talking about. No, it doesn't affect every shot. And, yes, there are "workarounds" (such as focusing on where the kid's pants meet her shirt).

But, given that she was only still for a second or two (as the photographer stated), I think most people would've tried to focus on the face instinctively.

Is this a "defect"? No. Is it "systemic" to all 10D's? Yes. Is it "systemic" to the D30/D60/1D/etc? Yes, but not to the same degree. Does this "AF issue" irritating to some who upgrade from the D60 to the 10D because of the kinds of shots they take? Yes.

Some may prefer that it simply be called a "limitation" and say that you should learn to work WITH the camera (with "workarounds"). That's fine, and I have no problem with that. But if you're having to do this, I can certainly see why you'd say it's an "AF issue", especially if it's causing more out-of-focus pictures than you got with the camera you upgraded FROM.

That's ALL that I'm saying . . . it's not bashing the 10D, it's simply pointing out the way it is.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

KilgoreTrout · Sep 17, 2003

that you are either waiting for your 10D to come in the mail or have joined our ranks? I thought you were so happy to get away from the rabble and stretch out in the 1D/1Ds forum... Hmmm.

Ps. - Can I get your autograph? LOL

DavidP said:
I think the "accepted" explanation right now is that the AF sensor
is getting confused because the contrast edge it's picking up is
caused by the child's face and the background. And these two
objects causing the contrast edge are at much different distances.

Now, remember that the actual AF square is 4x as large (areally) as
what you see depicted in that image. Given that, there's no way
to have the AF sensor just pick up the child's face, in order to
get more accurate focus.

A D30/D60 (what the 10D "upgraded") doesn't have as large an AF
sensor, and so should've focused just fine on that shot.

This is just one example of the "AF issue" I was talking about.
No, it doesn't affect every shot. And, yes, there are
"workarounds" (such as focusing on where the kid's pants meet her
shirt).

But, given that she was only still for a second or two (as the
photographer stated), I think most people would've tried to focus
on the face instinctively.

Is this a "defect"? No. Is it "systemic" to all 10D's? Yes.
Is it "systemic" to the D30/D60/1D/etc? Yes, but not to the same
degree. Does this "AF issue" irritating to some who upgrade from
the D60 to the 10D because of the kinds of shots they take? Yes.

Some may prefer that it simply be called a "limitation" and say
that you should learn to work WITH the camera (with "workarounds").
That's fine, and I have no problem with that. But if you're
having to do this, I can certainly see why you'd say it's an "AF
issue", especially if it's causing more out-of-focus pictures than
you got with the camera you upgraded FROM.

That's ALL that I'm saying . . . it's not bashing the 10D, it's
simply pointing out the way it is.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

--
-KilgoreTrout
http://www.infotography.com

DavidP #28649 · Sep 17, 2003

Autographs are $10 each. LOL.

My brother has a 10D, does that count? He even got it from Dell.

To those who think the big AF sensor isn't a problem, I'm sure I could design a test to show that it is . . one that every 10D would fail. Of course, then I'd be accused of TRYING to get the 10D's AF to fail. You just can't win!

KilgoreTrout said:
that you are either waiting for your 10D to come in the mail or
have joined our ranks? I thought you were so happy to get away from
the rabble and stretch out in the 1D/1Ds forum... Hmmm.

Ps. - Can I get your autograph? LOL

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Pearl Rider · Sep 17, 2003

DavidP said:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6091629

OK, what caused this mis-focusing?

You even said it yourself... the focus spot was on the SIDE of the child's face so the camera likely tried to lock on the background and the face. Somehow, that post disappeared along with my agreement post with your analysis. But even with this ONE shot... it was never pointed out how many shots like that Vince got. I got the impression that the example was the only one. He even supplied an example of a sharp image taken with the same Tokina lens so OBVIOUSLY the camera DOES focus properly. So, what are you trying to say? This ONE shot of a MISSED focus PROVES that the 10D has a design flaw? How about "The camera isn't perfect and neither is the operator."? Maybe the camera missed the focus and maybe it was locked before the child moved and taken after he started moving. I certainly have had that happen MANY times when trying to take candids of small, energetic children. They seem to just KNOW when you've committed to taking the shot and WILL move.

Vince isn't making nearly the fuss you are about this problem and it's HIS camera. Even if you COULD prove his camera is faulty, that doesn't make the whole lot of them faulty as well. That's another assumption.

Vern Stevens · Sep 17, 2003

there is percentages or proportions establishing "a problem".

I will tell you what COULD be wrong with the photo and I won't even get into questioning the integrity of the original poster.

Lens / camera incompatibility. I experienced an incompatibility with my 10D when I tried to use my Quantaray 75-300. While the lens was supposed to have EF compatibility, I could take 1, maybe two shots before I got ERR 99 and the combo would not function anymore. I would suggest that incompatibility can manifest itself in a variety of ways. This lens worked fine on my Rebel G, but did not work fine on my 10D. However, my older Canon EF 35-80 mm lens that I also used on the Rebel, worked fine on the 10D. Doesn't Canon say that their camera may not be compatible with all 3rd party lenses? At the very least, I don't think they keep it a deep dark secret.

It does not automatically convey that because it worked on an older camera, it will work on a newer camera, though perhaps it SHOULD. It then becomes an issue of determining is it the fault of the lens or the camera. Older and newer computer parts are a prime analogy of why technology does not always fit together as times progress. I would hazard a guess that from a technical, or a scientific viewpoint, this would offer case to investigate, but not come to a conclusion.

But all that aside, for the sake of discussion, I'll take it as a given that this is the 10D's fault. Now we have 1 picture, from 1 camera. If you did this 10 more times, I would still compare that to the number of cameras out there that seem to be functioning just fine and still hold that there is not a widespread "problem". I have not denied that a very small number of individual cameras may have problems, hence the posts of people sending them off and being repaired. What I argued, consistently, throughout our discourse is the extent of the "problem".

I have a 2003 Ford Mustang. I just recently had the 10K check up done to it. I got it in December 2002. Since I got it, I have had the following problems.

Serious:

Missing a nut from a bolt on a sway bar!

Cosmetic:

Headliner falling down.
Sidescoop coming off.
CD Changer sticking on Discs 5 and 6.
Center console had to be realigned.
Shifter console has 1/4" play in it.

My conclusion: All 2003 Ford Mustangs are lemons.

Actually, that isn't really my conclusion. While frustrated at having the problems, I don't have the data to come to that conclusion.

Now I'm really back out of the thread, unless the "problem" proportion is established to an extent that is a problem.

VES

PS: What caused this? (large file)

A: A 10D.

DavidP said:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6091629

OK, what caused this mis-focusing?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

--

My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a Photographic English Composition course.

Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos, composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven

tko · Sep 17, 2003

that you will have a well developed sense of "style" if you buy one of their cameras?

JamesMor · Sep 17, 2003

Hi DavidP,

Is this a "defect"? No. Is it "systemic" to all 10D's? Yes.

DavidP #28649 said:
Is it "systemic" to the D30/D60/1D/etc? Yes, but not to the same
degree.

It just occurred to me that there is a very simple way of finding out if your theory is accurate. Perhaps we can get someone with a Canon 1D and 1Ds to do some AF tests for us.

If - as you speculate - the alleged AF problem exists on all Canon (and other?) dSLRs with imported AF systems with smaller chip sensors, than we can assume that the only properly focusing dSLR in the Canon line-up is the 1Ds. In theory, it should focus as well as the 1v. If we see significant differences between the 1v, 1D and 1Ds then I think that you might be onto something. On the Nikon side, one could test a D100 with a N80 and a Kodak DSC 14n.

My guess - based on my very subjective data from people who use the 1d is that you won't find much of a difference - if anyl.

-JM

DavidP said:
I think the "accepted" explanation right now is that the AF sensor
is getting confused because the contrast edge it's picking up is
caused by the child's face and the background. And these two
objects causing the contrast edge are at much different distances.

Now, remember that the actual AF square is 4x as large (areally) as
what you see depicted in that image. Given that, there's no way
to have the AF sensor just pick up the child's face, in order to
get more accurate focus.

A D30/D60 (what the 10D "upgraded") doesn't have as large an AF
sensor, and so should've focused just fine on that shot.

This is just one example of the "AF issue" I was talking about.
No, it doesn't affect every shot. And, yes, there are
"workarounds" (such as focusing on where the kid's pants meet her
shirt).

But, given that she was only still for a second or two (as the
photographer stated), I think most people would've tried to focus
on the face instinctively.

Is this a "defect"? No. Is it "systemic" to all 10D's? Yes.
Is it "systemic" to the D30/D60/1D/etc? Yes, but not to the same
degree. Does this "AF issue" irritating to some who upgrade from
the D60 to the 10D because of the kinds of shots they take? Yes.

Some may prefer that it simply be called a "limitation" and say
that you should learn to work WITH the camera (with "workarounds").
That's fine, and I have no problem with that. But if you're
having to do this, I can certainly see why you'd say it's an "AF
issue", especially if it's causing more out-of-focus pictures than
you got with the camera you upgraded FROM.

That's ALL that I'm saying . . . it's not bashing the 10D, it's
simply pointing out the way it is.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Sep 17, 2003

All you have to do is to get the proper subject shape, size, and distance (for a given focal length).

Note that you can make even the 1v have problems, too.

As the sensor size gets smaller, this particular problem becomes less and less of a problem.

Of course, as the AF sensor gets smaller, it's accuracy also starts to suffer, I'm sure, due to the laws of physics.

Ideally, you'd have lots of smaller AF sensors that could be combined together in pairs (or even more than just 2) by the user via a CF so that he could get a small one or larger one (which should be more sensitive) depending on the circumstances.

I'm sure things like this are being kicked around at Canon.

JamesMor said:
It just occurred to me that there is a very simple way of finding
out if your theory is accurate. Perhaps we can get someone with a
Canon 1D and 1Ds to do some AF tests for us.

If - as you speculate - the alleged AF problem exists on all Canon
(and other?) dSLRs with imported AF systems with smaller chip
sensors, than we can assume that the only properly focusing dSLR in
the Canon line-up is the 1Ds. In theory, it should focus as well
as the 1v. If we see significant differences between the 1v, 1D
and 1Ds then I think that you might be onto something. On the
Nikon side, one could test a D100 with a N80 and a Kodak DSC 14n.

My guess - based on my very subjective data from people who use the
1d is that you won't find much of a difference - if anyl.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

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