Pursuing Leica via European Small Claims Court over sensor

I did indeed do it before initiating the small claims process. Actually, I started with Customer Care, who helped me in testing to find out whether the CCD had corrosion (it had). Then was forwarded to Customer Care Manager. Then Complaints Manager. Then board of directors (which includes CEO). I emailed also the COO, who had emailed me a rude and utterly unhelpful email; mine praised Leica down to the ground, and was very positive. There's a long trail of polite, grovelling emails from me, to everyone from the factory floor sweeper up to the CEO.

Thanks so much for your response, VfxByArt. I really appreciate it.

What you write mirrors both what I feel and what I wrote into the claim via the court, in fact. And actually it reflects what I had felt when I invested in a Leica. I respected Leica enormously - mostly for the glass, but also for the sheer quality of engineering (machining, and so on), and for the reality that there are Leicas out there 30, 40, 50+ years old still working and selling for large money because they're so good. And I really felt as if I was joining a 'family'.

I like the Leica 'pared-down' approach to photography. It's like the 'old days', when you adjusted shutter and aperture and did manual focusing and were careful about selection of the ASA/ISO of the film stock. No long, long menus to get between you and taking a photograph.

Actually, like you, my real love for Leica has been the quality of its glass and the je-ne-sais-quoi of its images. I do own a Fujifilm X100T and I find the quality of that so-much cheaper camera really good, too: truly excellent images, and the camera itself feels well made; and apart from the multitude of customisable buttons (which are good though I forget what I set to what...), there's a simplicity of approach that I like in the camera. Otherwise, I have what's now an old Canon 5DII, and I like it a lot too. I've found many cameras (cheap ones too) that have lasted for ages and ages, and with that Leica I had thought it would, too. Actually I think that the trick in photography is to stick with gear and get to know it very well, rather than chasing fads.

Anyway...yes: I think I've made the points you highlight fairly forcefully in my claim. But...I will be up against a team of professional lawyers who, I suspect, will fight like rats up a drainpipe, because they want that sensor issue to go away and be forgotten.

As for publicity and 'giving it to them', I figured that I should let this phase of the claim run its course, and I haven't sought publicity apart from this forum (and I don't imagine Leica managers are spending their weekend reading this). If my claim is rejected, I'll appeal, AND then I'll in parallel start writing some articles in which I'll seek the sympathy of the reader to my case, and their anger against Leica - which I believe is deserved.

Thanks again and best regards

HeatherJG said:

I did indeed do it before initiating the small claims process. Actually, I started with Customer Care, who helped me in testing to find out whether the CCD had corrosion (it had). Then was forwarded to Customer Care Manager. Then Complaints Manager. Then board of directors (which includes CEO). I emailed also the COO, who had emailed me a rude and utterly unhelpful email; mine praised Leica down to the ground, and was very positive. There's a long trail of polite, grovelling emails from me, to everyone from the factory floor sweeper up to the CEO.

--
HeatherJ

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Leica should realise that serious photographers who actually use their cameras for the purpose intended are more valuable to their brand than celebrity bozos who only care how a camera looks dangled around their necks.

J.

Yes. I think one of Leica's big virtues has been that they make cameras for serious photographers who want to...take photos.

Sadly the big big price ticket also attracts those who value the red badge. My MM didn't even have that - a virtue when I bought it, but maybe it takes away from its current value purely as an ornament.

I can understand the Leica's appeal even though I don't own a Leica body, besides not budgeting $7000 for a body, for exactly the reasons of what you're going through! Its bad enough having to spend $1500-$3400 on a body destined to landfill, but $7000? The best analogy is classic cars vs post 1980's cars. Mechanical classic cars can be re-tuned and even have parts re-manufactured by after market companies! Cars since the 80's obsolete themselves by using software and computers. To bad the transistors don't have the craftsmanship feel of their analog equivalent of Vacuum tubes, mechanical lineages and watch like camera parts. You don't see "transistor repair man" stores anywhere.. that part of the problem!

My canon 5d3 is my workhorse but I use an xt-2 as a photographers camera BECAUSE of the manual bits. I barely touch the menu system except to format cards and wifi transfer photos. I can completely use the on-body dials to adjust the settings of the camera before its even turned on! While I can;t do that with the canon, the tradeoff is a 21st century ergonomics (near perfect on the Eos-m5) where you have aperture, shutter, iso and even WB selectable from where your hand naturally rests as you hold the camera. The touch drag focus, introduce by olympus but perfected by canon IMHO allows the user to use the LCD screen as a trackpad, while your eye is on the EVF, to move your focus point!

Pictures I get from the smaller fuji X-t2 with the versatility and IQ of the summilux means I got pix that I never would have gotten since its always with me. Its so small! Meanwhile the professionalism of Canon gear with the strobe compatibility support and tank-like construction and CPS services support makes it very reliable in the field. That offsets the cost of getting effectively "Future Landfill" bodies.

But a $7000 Leica body is only worth if I needed to just buy it once. I can understand the tech of it depreciating... Megapixel size, not state of the art focusing, even the necessity of battery consumption and maintenance. That offset the cost of film for me. I know guys with award winning photographs from their canon 40D and 5D mark 1 today! But sensor rot? No! I would not even accept that from a $1500 camera body!

FYI, I'm of the school that $300 Fuji Instax cameras should have M-mounts for Leica/Voigtlander lenses, but thats just nutty me!

Hope this gives you ammunition for your lawyers!

Thank you, VfxByArt! I did try to incorporate the gist of some of what you wrote into my claim. At any rate, I acknowledged that a modern digital camera would swiftly become obsolete, but also that I had chosen to spend $7,000 on a Leica (10 times more than I might have spent on, say, a Fujifilm) because of the perceived quality of the thing. I would be prepared to continue to use a well-obsolete camera body for many years, if it gave the "Leica Promise", of exceptional image quality along with superb engineering of the body and its innards. In that sense I was let down by Leica. I had also expected the traditional customer care usually afforded the purchasers of an unusually fine product, beit a Rolls Royce (for whom I worked once), a Tesla or a Leica.

I found myself forced into an examination of just why I DID spend that amount of money - a small fortune to me! - on a camera body. A camera body even lacking the sof-offness of a Leica bearing a red dot, so that people could gaze upon me and marvel, and speculate that I must be either a wonderful photographer or a millionairess or both.

In truth, I was beguiled, partly (more than that, since it was a "without which not" thing) by three things. First, there was the quality obtainable from even a moderately expensive Leica lens (I could afford one lens, the 50mm Summicron, and its quality amazed and inspired me). Second, there was the Leica name and what I connoted to me. Third, when Leica produced a camera dedicated to ONLY taking B&W images, I just felt I had to have it, even though it meant selling my grandchildren into slavery.

In the event, the image quality - not simply the sharpness, but also a fineness in detail and gradation, of the kind you see in some of the images taken by war photographers in Vietnam, say - sometimes just blew me away. However, I ALSO found to my disappointment that the MM (the first of the Monochroms) often required far more post-processing than I had expected - far more, often, than would be needed to produce a nice monochrome image from my 5DMkII.

Realising that this is a Leica forum, I shouldn't stray too far into Canon or Fujifilm territory. However, I too find the 5D a great workhorse, and if I could afford it (I can't), I'm sure the MkIII would trump my old MkII. I also find that Fujifilm produces lovely cameras capable of great results. I DO keep thinking that maybe "the NEXT Fuji model will be the perfect one for me": rangefinder interchangeable, good resolution, simple dials, not too much (any?) reliance on touchscreen, even an articulated LCD (useful for arthritic knees). And not excessively expensive. I FEAR that maybe Fuji is heading in two directions that don't please me: (a) trying to capture the smartphone camera user, and (b) improving their video (if I wanted video, I would buy a video camera). But I hope. And, like you, that perfect Fuji body, together with an adapter for Leica M lenses, would put a smile on my face. My X100T, if it allowed a person to change lenses, would do very nicely, though a few more MP would be OK too.

Finally, I fully agree on having a setup that's small and light enough to have everywhere, since you can't get a photo if the camera is at home. That's why I thought of trading in the MM for the new CL. I had thought of a CL body, together with an adapter to take an M lens (probably 35mm to give 50mm equivalent, since I like to shoot with 50mm). I don't like the absence of markings for aperture and DoF, on the otherwise apparently excellent L/TL lenses.

Thanks a mill for your thoughts. Greetings.

HeatherJ

Thank you for outlining your position. I feel inclined to flow suit.

My reason is that even if you had changed your sensor, you would still be in the same position. According to a UK Leica dealer I spoke to this week, Leica changed the sensor with a like-for-like replacement until 2015, at which point they put a different sensor in. Those early replacement sensors are now failing and showing the same spotting/delamination.

Consequently, because my sensor was replaced in 2014, EVERY camera dealer I have spoken too so far is refusing to accept my M-E as a trade-in. In short, they know it has nil value and my significant investment has been reduced to zero.

I have never known that to happen with any other camera. Personally, I think all M9/M-E owners should bring a class action against Leica to recover their loss.

BambooThang said:

Thank you for outlining your position. I feel inclined to flow suit.

My reason is that even if you had changed your sensor, you would still be in the same position. According to a UK Leica dealer I spoke to this week, Leica changed the sensor with a like-for-like replacement until 2015, at which point they put a different sensor in. Those early replacement sensors are now failing and showing the same spotting/delamination.

Consequently, because my sensor was replaced in 2014, EVERY camera dealer I have spoken too so far is refusing to accept my M-E as a trade-in. In short, they know it has nil value and my significant investment has been reduced to zero.

I have never known that to happen with any other camera. Personally, I think all M9/M-E owners should bring a class action against Leica to recover their loss.

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Very sorry to hear about your situation. . . I'd be curious to learn whether class action lawsuits are common in the EU.

In the U.S. all you need to do is find an attorney who owns an affected Leica. It shouldn't be too hard to do. . . ;-)

I'm away in Greece at the moment-back.home in Ireland in about 10 days - so I don't know whether my own case has moved on to a closing stage yet. I'll post here when it does.

I'm not so sure that a class action is even possible in a European context. I'lI try to find out something on this when I'm home.

My experience so far is that the European Small Claims Process accepted my case as one to pursue. They sent my lengthy submission to Leica; Leica responded in a very dismissive manner (their main points centred on the time limit of the original warranty and their point that the replacement offer was purely goodwill). I was then given the chance to respond, which I did (I argued about serial defects and that Leica had, in effect, accepted a liability and had altered their warranty as a result, and that the 2017 time limit then set an arbitrary and unfair further limit to their new warranty. Etc). My comments were sent to Leica for further comment, & the Court was awaiting their further response when I left for Greece 10 days ago.

My guess is that the Court will next go on to make a judgement when they eventually hear again from Leica. I don't feel so confident since I'll.up against a team of professional lawyers and since Leica have consistently been arrogant and unyielding even following very polite letters to their CEO, etc. To be honest, I find their attitude incredible for such a prestigious company, with such a great reputation.

I too have found that all UK dealers place the value of my MM at zero (well, one has suggested they would give me £1k for it). So the camera is more or less worthless, and I can't afford to do anything about it other than keep fighting and save for Fund's latest X camera.

I would however cheerfully join in a class action or equivalent, if that proved possibke and the cost was very low. Let us see what can be done.

Again to be frank I've found that many of the comments on this forum (lughtandprayer a major exception!) are pretty arrogant- written by guys with loads of money to buy multiple Leica bodies and lenses; and I sense their attitude is that if a person has to scrimp and save for a Leica then s/he doesn't deserve to have one. That doesn't help a person to feel there's a load of solidarity. Of course there have been notable exceptions in the responses on this thread.

I continue to feel that Leica feels the same as the owners I've described: arrogant, uncaring, and "You don't matter". And now - although I will say I would love to own a working Leica, I just don't know whether I DO want to be associated with that apparently arrogant company who wants only wealthy clients - many of whom seem to spend more time collecting prestigious looking gear with red dots than actually taking photos.

But...I'll fight on, and appeal if necessary. I would recommend others in Europe to take a Small Claims claim. The cost is only €25 And if enough people did then I think maybe it would cause Leica to rethink. In any case, if found against (which I believe will happen), I'll try to appeal.

And will keep you updated. And would join in any attempt at class action or similar.

If unsuccessful, I may try a petition. I may try to seek a boycott of this company - or seek to publicise the issue. I refrained from that while the case is in progress because I decided (wrongly?) It might just antagonize the company and the Court.

It seems that as of April 2018 draft proposals were laid down for a style of class action in the EU (class actions not previously having been part of European law). The EU action wouldn't be lawyer based; instead, a national or international consumers group would pursue a Company on behalf of a number of complainants in one or more member states. It seems the aim is to create an approach to class actions that wouldn't involve long and massively costly class actions as other jurisdictions have experienced.

I think it may be some time before this gets enacted in European law; and it may be that it'll have to be ratified by individual member states, I don't know.

If my own case via the Small Claims Procedure fails, and if an appeal fails, then if it's in place I would join others in a class acroon.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that the approach taken by Leica (along with their attitude) in relation to M9 and equivalent sensor replacement is unjust, and fails to deal fairly with a customer base that really wishes to be loyal to what we all have believed to be a flagship company whose central 'motto' had always been to do.with excellence.

I would call on Leica owners to write to Leica at the most senior level, requesting that they revert to a completely free replacement of any defective sensors - sensors that clearly had design/manufacturing defects from the get-go.

After all, no Leica owner knows when or whether s/he may face a similar problem,.where an epensive and valuable/valued camera is suddenly rendered worthless - especially if as an owner you don't have €1,000 lying around to pay to have a defect fixed - defects that either you weren't made aware of, or that you heard of but had the problem dealt with by a new sensor having the same defect being fitted.

This is an episode that reflects badly upon the very name, reputation and trustworthiness of Leica; and that is something that affects all Leica lovers negatively - whether wealthy camera owners or (as with me) an owner who saved for years to have the opportunity to own such a camera.

In my view, if many Leica owners would take just a little time to email Leica's CEO or COO, then that might cause them to decide that they won't behave as they did should a similar issue arise in the future.

No Leica owner knows when s/he may be thus affected.

It is not good enough to protest that Leica made a generous replacement offer in this case. If, like me, you knew nothing whatsoever about it until it was too late, then all the generous offers in the world will be of no help.

So...I believe that Leica owners should stand together in this, and demand of the company they love that customers - the lifeblood of a Company- be treated fairly at all times.

HeatherJG said:

HeatherJG wrote:
[...] So...I believe that Leica owners should stand together in this, and demand of the company they love that customers - the lifeblood of a Company- be treated fairly at all times.

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I would gladly help if you had a Leica warranty but you don't have one if i understand well so i hardly see a legal ground for you sorry. I'm but an ugly French lawyer though so i would ask an Irish colleague if i were in your shoes. Good luck
Best,
LCT

Well, LCT, we shall see how it gies along. My claim through the European Small Claims Procedure is still alive. And I will continue to fight.

Leica have treated customers badly. That is not a goid thing for them to have done.

I'll keep at it, but (with respect to your profession, which often serves people ill) I shall steer clear of lawyers thank you.

HeatherJG said:

I'll keep at it, but (with respect to your profession, which often serves people ill) I shall steer clear of lawyers thank you.

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Wow. Was that really necessary when LCT posted a courteously worded and pertinent response?

--Probabky not, youngjohn, and I apologise most sincerely to (almost) all lawyers, and mist particularly to the correspondent in this thread.

I have had negative experiences with lawyers in my time. However, I am convinced that there are some who are thoroughly competent, and I should not generalise.


HeatherJ

Well to be honest, I’ve had first class service from Leica in any dealings I’ve had, including servicing older lenses, a warranty claim on an SL and replacement of an M9p sensor.

My dealings with lawyers have always been pretty good too, no complaInts there either.

Id be interested to know how many people have actually ‘missed’ the deadline for sensor replacement. I would have thought that most M9/ME’s would have been done by now.

youngjohn said:

Id be interested to know how many people have actually ‘missed’ the deadline for sensor replacement. I would have thought that most M9/ME’s would have been done by now.

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As I understand it, the replacement offer (both the old and the new) only applies to sensors actually affected by corrosion.

So if the corrosion did not occur (yet?), someone is not entitled to the free warranty replacement (still existing for cams < 5 years old) or the new offer for 982 euros (for cams > 5 years old)

This means there may still be quite a number of camera's which did not receive a sensor replacement.

My recently purchased MM is not affected (yet?) by the issue, but in my case, it was a calculated risk.

In Heather's case, I understand the issue lies with the wording of the registration of the camera, which currently reads:

"Regsiter you Leica products [...] You'll also receive important information to pertainining your product."

https://en.leica-camera.com/Members-Area

So by not actively informing registed customer, one could argue Leica was negligent in its commitment to provide important information "to pertaining products"

I have no idea how this relates to its liability to failing to actively provide this information to registered users. But I do understand Heather's grief as a result of this.

The arguments I read as to resale value: This is a more speculative matter in my opinion. Personnaly, I do not think you are entitled to any solid guarantee by the manufacturer re. resale value of a used product.

Informations have been given by Leica in 2014, 2015 and 2017 AFAIK:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8752612172/leica-m9-users-report-sensor-corrosion-issue
https://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2015/Latest-information-CCD-sensors
https://en.leica-camera.com/World-o...ica-M9-M9-P-M-Monochrom-and-M-E-camera-models
Best,
LCT

Sjak said:

"Regsiter you Leica products [...] You'll also receive important information to pertainining your product."

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I don’t think the phrase above constitutes a guarantee to contact you over a specific issue. Did Leica email people? If so, There’s any number of reasons why you may not have received it.

I suppose the real question is, how many people were completely unaware of the problem, the solution and the deadline until after it had passed? Not many I suspect. I am by no means a particularly active forum user but I knew about it and had the replacement done. Can’t actually remember how.

LCT said:

Informations have been given by Leica in 2014, 2015 and 2017 AFAIK:

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Yes, indeed a press release and an update on the website. But apparently, at least in Heather's case, no information was sent individually.

I'm not implying that this necessarily has legal consequences. I simply don't know.

But I certainly feel that as far as information goes, more could have been done than just a quiet update on the website.

E.g. a car manufacturer with a recall (or potential safety issue) will contact owners of possibly affected products directly, either by letter or by email. (not implying a car is the same as a camera )

From a consumers point of view, I would also prefer the approach of individually contacting known/registered users of a product with problems known to the manufacturer. I cannot reasonably be expected to check all websites of the stuff I have on a daily or weekly basis. On the other hand, for the manufacturer, it is a simple query on the database to select the potentially affected users. Manufacturers (or their importers,....) do send emails based on such queries, with all kinds of commercial offers based on what we own/purchased/registered. But I drifted a bit from the initial topic meanwhile

youngjohn said:

youngjohn said:

"Regsiter you Leica products [...] You'll also receive important information to pertainining your product."

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I don’t think the phrase above constitutes a guarantee to contact you over a specific issue. Did Leica email people? If so, There’s any number of reasons why you may not have received it.

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Yes, this is very well possible (both your above points)

I was not implying that I do think that there is a legal obligation, just that there was a possibility to do so. From a consumers point of view, for me, that is the preferred approach, even when done on a voluntary basis by a company.

youngjohn said:

I suppose the real question is, how many people were completely unaware of the problem, the solution and the deadline until after it had passed? Not many I suspect. I am by no means a particularly active forum user but I knew about it and had the replacement done. Can’t actually remember how.

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That, and just as important: how a company approaches such (probably relatively rare/exceptional) cases.