Panasonic haters!

Mark Ransom said:

Pixnat2 said:

Communication breakdown, it's always the same,
I'm having a nervous breakdown, drive me insane !

This Led Zeppelin verse applies quite well to that thread.



My take :

Panasonic generally makes excellent and reliable cameras and lenses.

They had some problems with one item, the 100-400.

They didn't handled this very well, their mistake.

People have good reasons to be angry or wary. They express it in a public forum, that's their rights. It's disrespectful to call them "haters".

But there's one thing that we all can be sure of : Panasonic will fix it.

And peace will come back to the m4/3 small world

;-)

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Yes, there's a communication breakdown. But maybe not where you think.

I don't think anybody claims the 100-400 is any more problematic than any other product from Panasonic, or Olympus for that matter. Some people report problems with stiff zooms or sticky mounts, but that's not what this is about. Rather it's about Panasonic's repair policy. It was the 100-400 that brought it to our attention, but there's no reason to believe the policy is any different for other premium Panasonic products.

First, Panasonic does not make repair parts available to anybody, even their own official repair partners. Broken lenses must be sent back to Japan for even the simplest repair.

Second, you won't get back your original part but a refurbished one that they had waiting. You get quicker turnaround, but you may end up trading one problem for another.

Third, if you're out of warranty the price seems to be totally arbitrary, and much higher than seems reasonable - up to the full price of a refurbished device. In the absence of a published repair price list people are assuming the worst.

Fourth, warranty terms vary around the world, and can be as short as 1 year. Even in the best case warranties aren't transferable.

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larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

I have to say that Panasonic must have received that message loud and strong for a couple of weeks now. If they have not already received that message then repeating it endlessly will not improve their ability to hear.

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1. Advent1Sam is the one that started this thread so you can go ahead and blame him if you don't like another Panasonic support-related thread being started.

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Daniel Cox and Advent1Sam have acted as “Devil’s Advocates’ in their posts. However it seems that the disgruntled only want their disgruntle to be heard. So you cannot blame them for starting these thread putting an altenative point of view.

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Tom, I have no problem with Advent1Sam starting this thread. I only mentioned that he started it because it sounds like you were complaining about the message being repeated "endlessly." Advent1Sam basically enticed people who were against Panasonic's support policy into responding to this thread by calling them haters.

larsbc said:

Nothing can be said that seems to contradict the message which has been loud and clear since Anne started her thread and then subsequently pronounced herself well satisfied and has withdrawn from the contest.

larsbc said:

1. We have no idea whether or not Panasonic got the message because they've been absolutely silent on the issue aside from the one bit of info they passed to Dpreview in Anne's thread.

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I am no quite sure what you wish to hear from Panasonic - it is not a usual policy for any manufacturer to comment publicly on issues such as this.

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A simple "we have taken note of your concerns and are discussing options for improving our service" would go a long ways. Also, whether or not it is usual policy doesn't matter. This much complaining about Panasonic's repair policy is also unusual as well. They can choose to ignore us and let us imagine the worst, or they can get one of their PR people to open communications. If they don't know how to handle this situation, they should at least hire a consulting PR firm.

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Advent1sam said:

tgutgu said:

Advent1sam said:

tt321 said:

If it is time to move on and leave it (I agree actually), what's the point of creating this thread? You are keeping the flame going.

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I was hoping it would draw a line under things and hopefully people can see Panasonic for what they are, a fabulous company with fabulous products that are very, very reliable

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Well, with your attitude and thread title, you failed completely. Not very many deny that Panasonic does good products. If Panasonic is a fabulous company is hard to know, because I have no insight about how the company works, if it’s employees are happy and well treated, and how reliable the products are in comparison. I know that some of the products aren’t that reliable or a have issues like not so good finder optics (GH3, G9), improvable ergonomics (GX8), not so long lasting finish (G1, GH1), and so on. I have an equally long list regarding Olympus products. As such I would never generalize saying that a vendor makes fabulous products. They mostly works as we can expect, almost never as being advertised, and almost all of them leave something to be desired (for which the users have the very reason to express this without getting flamed).

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G9 has met all of my expectations, so has my 100-400, 8-18 and 12-60, I am waiting to add the 50-200 without hesitation and also the Oly 17 1.2, when I get around to it and possibly the 45 1.2 too.

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Advent1sam said:

rsf3127 said:

This is called Ad Hominem. It is an old tactic. Has been working wonders forever, unfortunately.

IMO, it is a simptom of a low intelligence.

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And you own which Panasonic product and have what experience exactly with them?

PS, do you know how to spell symptom, or is that an indication of low intelligence too, the fact that someone can't even correct spelling that is now underlined for you, lol!

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Advent1sam said:

Jorginho said:

However I do not think that most who criticised Panny for how they handle the 100-400 after warranty is somehow "hating Panasonic". I agree with their criticism.

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I agree with some of the criticism too, I am not saying their points aren't valid or otherwise, I am just saying that all my Panasonic gear has been 100% reliable and that many comments are just coming down on Panasonic which taken overall in terms of product releases, reliability and the level of technology a lot of these products have embedded is totally unjustified, in my and many other peoples opinion it seems!

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Chi Pham said:

I am wondering if you're an Oly hater.

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Chi Pham said:

You seem to quickly point out all the negatives of Oly though you do not own it and defend Panny even when it's service policy is clearly flawed.

If you really care for the Panny brand, tell them to provide service warranty equal to Oly, not less.

It's in their best interest to compete successfully.

--
Peace

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larsbc said:

Advent1sam said:

larsbc said:

Accept that there are major flaws in the way Panasonic treat their customers when it comes to repairs, this is fact.

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Not really, in warranty clients are treated swiftly and impeccably I believe, out of warranty clients are being treated differently on one particular product, the 100-400.

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In the past week I've seen people post their bad experiences with Panasonic's warranty repairs. Poor communication seems to be a problem, for starters.

larsbc said:

larsbc said:

I'm an Olympus user, not that it has anything to do with anything. Your attitude is present in our community as well. I think it's sad that people feel the need to attack others who are merely informing the community of flaws, wether it be in service or products.

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I think all this hostility is sad too for a company that delivers class leading products year after year and has maybe slipped up on this one occasion. I ask myself this, would I rather a 100-400 lens that might go wrong and then require expensive service or no lens because if it does go wrong I begrudge paying for a repair?

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Again, you're missing the point. No one is upset about paying for a repair. They're upset with the high fixed price for ANY repair, no matter how small.

larsbc said:

larsbc said:

Some think that just because their product unit or customer experience is great there is something wrong with people who have had a different experience, this is ludacris.

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I don't think that, I think that people should be reasonable and their expectations should be reasonable, I think Panasonic's position is reasonable and that people should explore insurance and warranty options to protect themselves from unexpected bills, like many do for many other things.

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Again, it is not unexpected repairs that are the problem. It's the fact that Panasonic's official position is that if you want the lens repaired out-of-warranty, ALL repairs to that lens will cost as much as a re-certified lens (eg: USD$1000+).

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dinoSnake said:

larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

I have to say that Panasonic must have received that message loud and strong for a couple of weeks now. If they have not already received that message then repeating it endlessly will not improve their ability to hear.

Click to expand...

1. Advent1Sam is the one that started this thread so you can go ahead and blame him if you don't like another Panasonic support-related thread being started.

Click to expand...

Daniel Cox and Advent1Sam have acted as “Devil’s Advocates’ in their posts. However it seems that the disgruntled only want their disgruntle to be heard. So you cannot blame them for starting these thread putting an altenative point of view.

Click to expand...

Tom, I have no problem with Advent1Sam starting this thread. I only mentioned that he started it because it sounds like you were complaining about the message being repeated "endlessly." Advent1Sam basically enticed people who were against Panasonic's support policy into responding to this thread by calling them haters.

dinoSnake said:

Nothing can be said that seems to contradict the message which has been loud and clear since Anne started her thread and then subsequently pronounced herself well satisfied and has withdrawn from the contest.

dinoSnake said:

1. We have no idea whether or not Panasonic got the message because they've been absolutely silent on the issue aside from the one bit of info they passed to Dpreview in Anne's thread.

Click to expand...

I am no quite sure what you wish to hear from Panasonic - it is not a usual policy for any manufacturer to comment publicly on issues such as this.

Click to expand...

A simple "we have taken note of your concerns and are discussing options for improving our service" would go a long ways. Also, whether or not it is usual policy doesn't matter. This much complaining about Panasonic's repair policy is also unusual as well. They can choose to ignore us and let us imagine the worst, or they can get one of their PR people to open communications. If they don't know how to handle this situation, they should at least hire a consulting PR firm.

Click to expand...

This is not correct: there have been plenty of complaints regarding Panasonic's repair policies but they are usually dismissed as 'special', 'rare' or 'unique' occurrences, no matter how many times they were posted.

If one only bothers to look up the posting histories of topics like "slipping dial"; " control dial failure "; " LCD problems" like failing hinges and peeling coatings; "flash failure" on both internal and external; "EVF failure" like 'melting' images and outright panel issues, plus many more, you'll find PLENTY of complaints regarding ridiculously high repair costs versus actual parts costs, slow turnaround and poor communications regarding both Panasonic and their Texas repair depot.

But then they are almost always dismissed by the majority of Panasonic owners, 'I don't have a camera problem so this is a non-issue'.

As an owner of both Olympus and Panasonic I must say that I prefer Panasonic products and their method of operation but, simultaneously, have had much worse service experience with them. Olympus makes servicing their products easy; Panasonic is directly opposite on that scale. With them refusing to make parts available to third-party repair shops, servicing Panasonic cameras is, all too often, an expensive nightmare as compared to Olympus service.

Although I would like a Panasonic camera to replace my Olympus, for as I said I simply find Panasonics more intuitive to use, I have serious doubts about actually buying one.

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Jorginho said:

Advent1sam said:

Jorginho said:

However I do not think that most who criticised Panny for how they handle the 100-400 after warranty is somehow "hating Panasonic". I agree with their criticism.

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I agree with some of the criticism too, I am not saying their points aren't valid or otherwise, I am just saying that all my Panasonic gear has been 100% reliable and that many comments are just coming down on Panasonic which taken overall in terms of product releases, reliability and the level of technology a lot of these products have embedded is totally unjustified, in my and many other peoples opinion it seems!

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So you are not just saying their points aren't valid BUT then you do say it and call it unjustified.

Instead of bringing other arguments in there, how your gear never failed you which was not the point I think, just focus on what happened (unless you are reacting to some other post).

Simply put: a 1700 dollar lens that breaks down after 2,5 years means an enormous cost due to where the repairservice is located and how the lens is assembled.

This all makes me wonder if the same is true for the 50-200 F2.8 F4 and the 200 mm F2.8...

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RobbieBear said:

I get that this must be a worry for folks who own the lens in question. I very much doubt that everyone getting hot under the collar actually does own the lens.

To those who don't actually own the lens like myself it is simply a case of Buy, or Don't Buy.

Once you know the position of a vendor on a particular issue, you become an empowered potential consumer. The way to exercise that power is to simply choose whether to buy the product or not.

Click to expand...

1. One reason this annoys me is because, other than the out-of-warranty repair issue, the 100-400 seems perfect for what I want to use it for. I really want to get this lens but Panasonic is making a simple decision difficult because of their policy. I mention this to explain why, as a non-owner of this lens, I am concerned about the policy.
2. I think threads like this, if they are brought to Panasonic's attention, are useful because the mere act of not buying the lens doesn't indicate to Panasonic the reason WHY I'm not buying it. I don't want them to get the impression that there's no demand for the lens. I want them to understand that their repair policy is problematic in the eyes of some of their customers and that it could cost them sales.

Trevor Carpenter said:

dinoSnake said:

larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

larsbc said:

Tom Caldwell said:

I have to say that Panasonic must have received that message loud and strong for a couple of weeks now. If they have not already received that message then repeating it endlessly will not improve their ability to hear.

Click to expand...

1. Advent1Sam is the one that started this thread so you can go ahead and blame him if you don't like another Panasonic support-related thread being started.

Click to expand...

Daniel Cox and Advent1Sam have acted as “Devil’s Advocates’ in their posts. However it seems that the disgruntled only want their disgruntle to be heard. So you cannot blame them for starting these thread putting an altenative point of view.

Click to expand...

Tom, I have no problem with Advent1Sam starting this thread. I only mentioned that he started it because it sounds like you were complaining about the message being repeated "endlessly." Advent1Sam basically enticed people who were against Panasonic's support policy into responding to this thread by calling them haters.

Trevor Carpenter said:

Nothing can be said that seems to contradict the message which has been loud and clear since Anne started her thread and then subsequently pronounced herself well satisfied and has withdrawn from the contest.

Trevor Carpenter said:

1. We have no idea whether or not Panasonic got the message because they've been absolutely silent on the issue aside from the one bit of info they passed to Dpreview in Anne's thread.

Click to expand...

I am no quite sure what you wish to hear from Panasonic - it is not a usual policy for any manufacturer to comment publicly on issues such as this.

Click to expand...

A simple "we have taken note of your concerns and are discussing options for improving our service" would go a long ways. Also, whether or not it is usual policy doesn't matter. This much complaining about Panasonic's repair policy is also unusual as well. They can choose to ignore us and let us imagine the worst, or they can get one of their PR people to open communications. If they don't know how to handle this situation, they should at least hire a consulting PR firm.

Click to expand...

This is not correct: there have been plenty of complaints regarding Panasonic's repair policies but they are usually dismissed as 'special', 'rare' or 'unique' occurrences, no matter how many times they were posted.

If one only bothers to look up the posting histories of topics like "slipping dial"; " control dial failure "; " LCD problems" like failing hinges and peeling coatings; "flash failure" on both internal and external; "EVF failure" like 'melting' images and outright panel issues, plus many more, you'll find PLENTY of complaints regarding ridiculously high repair costs versus actual parts costs, slow turnaround and poor communications regarding both Panasonic and their Texas repair depot.

But then they are almost always dismissed by the majority of Panasonic owners, 'I don't have a camera problem so this is a non-issue'.

As an owner of both Olympus and Panasonic I must say that I prefer Panasonic products and their method of operation but, simultaneously, have had much worse service experience with them. Olympus makes servicing their products easy; Panasonic is directly opposite on that scale. With them refusing to make parts available to third-party repair shops, servicing Panasonic cameras is, all too often, an expensive nightmare as compared to Olympus service.

Although I would like a Panasonic camera to replace my Olympus, for as I said I simply find Panasonics more intuitive to use, I have serious doubts about actually buying one.

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Your experience is worse because you are American and for some reason, Panasonic doesn't like Americans and certainly doesn't go out of there way to support Americans. The European experience on Panasonic support seems to be completely different and in my own personal experience is excellent. I try and understand why this is the case. I was in the US for a couple of weeks in February and the conclusion that I came to was that US citizens only use two types of cameras, phones and big FFs with bazookas. The majority aren't in the last bit interested in the middle ground, m4/3s or mirrorless and consequently Panasonic isn't that interested in you. Over the other side of the pond we haven't embraced mirrorless totally but attend any event and we are there and noticeable.

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larsbc said:

RobbieBear said:

I get that this must be a worry for folks who own the lens in question. I very much doubt that everyone getting hot under the collar actually does own the lens.

To those who don't actually own the lens like myself it is simply a case of Buy, or Don't Buy.

Once you know the position of a vendor on a particular issue, you become an empowered potential consumer. The way to exercise that power is to simply choose whether to buy the product or not.

Click to expand...

Yes, voting with the wallet is a powerful statement. But let me just add a couple of remarks:

1. One reason this annoys me is because, other than the out-of-warranty repair issue, the 100-400 seems perfect for what I want to use it for. I really want to get this lens but Panasonic is making a simple decision difficult because of their policy. I mention this to explain why, as a non-owner of this lens, I am concerned about the policy.
2. I think threads like this, if they are brought to Panasonic's attention, are useful because the mere act of not buying the lens doesn't indicate to Panasonic the reason WHY I'm not buying it. I don't want them to get the impression that there's no demand for the lens. I want them to understand that their repair policy is problematic in the eyes of some of their customers and that it could cost them sales.

Click to expand...

larsbc said:

RobbieBear said:

I get that this must be a worry for folks who own the lens in question. I very much doubt that everyone getting hot under the collar actually does own the lens.

To those who don't actually own the lens like myself it is simply a case of Buy, or Don't Buy.

Once you know the position of a vendor on a particular issue, you become an empowered potential consumer. The way to exercise that power is to simply choose whether to buy the product or not.

Click to expand...

Yes, voting with the wallet is a powerful statement. But let me just add a couple of remarks:

1. One reason this annoys me is because, other than the out-of-warranty repair issue, the 100-400 seems perfect for what I want to use it for. I really want to get this lens but Panasonic is making a simple decision difficult because of their policy. I mention this to explain why, as a non-owner of this lens, I am concerned about the policy.
2. I think threads like this, if they are brought to Panasonic's attention, are useful because the mere act of not buying the lens doesn't indicate to Panasonic the reason WHY I'm not buying it. I don't want them to get the impression that there's no demand for the lens. I want them to understand that their repair policy is problematic in the eyes of some of their customers and that it could cost them sales.

Click to expand...

RobbieBear said:

larsbc said:

RobbieBear said:

I get that this must be a worry for folks who own the lens in question. I very much doubt that everyone getting hot under the collar actually does own the lens.

To those who don't actually own the lens like myself it is simply a case of Buy, or Don't Buy.

Once you know the position of a vendor on a particular issue, you become an empowered potential consumer. The way to exercise that power is to simply choose whether to buy the product or not.

Click to expand...

Yes, voting with the wallet is a powerful statement. But let me just add a couple of remarks:

1. One reason this annoys me is because, other than the out-of-warranty repair issue, the 100-400 seems perfect for what I want to use it for. I really want to get this lens but Panasonic is making a simple decision difficult because of their policy. I mention this to explain why, as a non-owner of this lens, I am concerned about the policy.
2. I think threads like this, if they are brought to Panasonic's attention, are useful because the mere act of not buying the lens doesn't indicate to Panasonic the reason WHY I'm not buying it. I don't want them to get the impression that there's no demand for the lens. I want them to understand that their repair policy is problematic in the eyes of some of their customers and that it could cost them sales.

Click to expand...

I agree that bringing these issues to Panasonic's attention is important. I think that has certainly been achieved.

I just don't see the need, as some have done, to threaten to boycott all Panny photo gear.

The nature of the lens construction may be the reason for uneconomical repair (we don't know) The thing is, if that is the case, following an uproar, Panasonic may decide to withdraw the lens from sale. Then we won't be in a position to do our own risk assessment regarding purchase. These things sometimes can have an unwanted outcome as well as a potentially positive one.

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RobbieBear said:

I agree that bringing these issues to Panasonic's attention is important. I think that has certainly been achieved.

Click to expand...

RobbieBear said:

I just don't see the need, as some have done, to threaten to boycott all Panny photo gear.

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RobbieBear said:

The nature of the lens construction may be the reason for uneconomical repair (we don't know) The thing is, if that is the case, following an uproar, Panasonic may decide to withdraw the lens from sale. Then we won't be in a position to do our own risk assessment regarding purchase. These things sometimes can have an unwanted outcome as well as a potentially positive one.

Click to expand...

RobbieBear said:

I agree that bringing these issues to Panasonic's attention is important. I think that has certainly been achieved.

I just don't see the need, as some have done, to threaten to boycott all Panny photo gear.

The nature of the lens construction may be the reason for uneconomical repair (we don't know) The thing is, if that is the case, following an uproar, Panasonic may decide to withdraw the lens from sale. Then we won't be in a position to do our own risk assessment regarding purchase. These things sometimes can have an unwanted outcome as well as a potentially positive one.

Click to expand...