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What is mirrorless?

What is mirrorless?

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When we use the term 'Mirrorless' we're using it as a more convenient contraction of Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera (MILC).

We first used the word mirrorless at the announcement of the Micro Four Thirds system. So, while the term 'mirrorless' itself could be applied to all non-DSLR cameras, there's no reason to retrospectively apply it, nor to point out the absence of a mirror (just as we don't call compact cameras single-lens compacts, since there aren't a lot of twin-lens compacts to distinguish them from).

Richard - dpreview.com
 
john Clinch said:
Dheorl said:
john Clinch said:
mamallama said:
nuke12 said:
justmeMN said:
The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.
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Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only?
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To distinguish interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors from those with mirrors (DSLRs).

Earlier, cameras now in the mirrorless category were called by some EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras. But that name didn't stick for devilish reasons.
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I think the industry was ordered to jump on the term mirror less in a desperate move to make sure that the more accurate EVIL was not adopted.....
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The problem with EVIL though is, as mentioned, it stands for Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens. Doesn't really fit particularly well when half of them don't have viewfinders.
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Coming in at number 8 in our arguments that repeat on DPreview list.

"Is a screen a viewfinder? "

Yes it is. But isn't an eye level viewfinder.
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Clearly I disagree. To me without optics it's not a viewfinder, but as you say, it's an argument that will just go round and round.
 
john Clinch said:
I think the industry was ordered to jump on the term mirror less in a desperate move to make sure that the more accurate EVIL was not adopted.....
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Most companies have been very reticent to use the term 'mirrorless' for their MILCs, over concerns that it might imply something (necessary?) is absent.

Richard - dpreview.com
 
Sure, technically a compact camera is a mirrorless camera, just as is this...

viewcameradarkcloth.jpg


and these...



SingleUseCameras.jpg


Equally this is technically a DSLR



1920px-Hasselblad_503CW_V96C.jpg


But there seems little point in grouping any of them together.
 
Dennis said:
Edit: And this isn't any kind of "distancing" from "p&s users". I use an RX100, a couple mirrorless Sonys and a DSLR. I'm about to sell off the mirrorless system after buying an RX10. And I expect that most of my photos will be taken with the two fixed lens cameras. They don't have mirrors, but I have no reason to refer to them as mirrorless.
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What about the RX1R II?
Dennis said:
ILCs, on the other hand, can be differentiated by whether they're DSLRs or mirrorless (with a few other categories, like rangefinder). So there's a point to referring to an ILC as mirrorless.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
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I found this on Photography Life;

https://photographylife.com/what-is-a-mirrorless-camera

It makes no mention of a mirrorless requiring interchangeable lenses. In all fairness, I've also found other sites that want to define mirrorless as requiring IL but use the term MILC as redirct.

I'm starting to think that we should be saying MILC and not just mirrorless for cameras with IL systems. Mirrorless is just too loose of a term. Clearly, even here, mirrorless means different things to different people.

--
I'm a photo hacker. I use my expensive equipment to destroy anything in front of my camera. This is a special skill that can never be realized by low life photographers. A nurtured skill since the 1970's.
 
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nuke12 said:
I found this on Photography Life;

https://photographylife.com/what-is-a-mirrorless-camera

It makes no mention of a mirrorless requiring interchangeable lenses. In all fairness, I've also found other sites that want to define mirrorless as requiring IL but use the term MILC as redirct.

I'm starting to think that we should be saying MILC and not just mirrorless for cameras with IL systems. Mirrorless is just too loose of a term. Clearly, even here, mirrorless means different things to different people.
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Articles like you linked are technically sloppy. It assumed it was understood the subject was interchangeable lens cameras.

It makes it known it is talking about interchangeable lens cameras by sneaking in stuff like this, "... the flange distance (which is the distance between the lens mount and the image sensor) on mirrorless cameras ..."

Why would it be talking about flange distance and lens mount if it were not talking about interchangeable lens cameras?
 
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New Day Rising said:
The term "mirrorless" did not appear until the introduction of the Panasonic G1
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Exactly what I was going to point out, and the biggest clue that there is one right answer.
 
Goethe said:
Its dumb to define a thing by what it doesnt have, but thats just the way is shook out.
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It is perfectly smart and sensible, e.g. flightless bird.
 
zackiedawg said:
zackiedawg wrote:.

Mirrorless is a familiar shortened form of 'Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras', or MILCs...
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Not at all. It is a shortened form of "Digital Single Lens Mirrorless", or DSLM, as Panasonic described the G1.
 
Using mirrorless to refer to an interchangeable lens camera without a mirror is simply a convenient, if not all that accurate, term.

So is Full Frame generally now understood to mean one with a 24x36mm sensor.

And so are sunset and sunrise for that matter.

A good one is vacuum cleaner because there is nothing dirty in a vacuum.
 
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One of my mirrors have become mirrorless by accident.

IMO mirrorless camera is a stupid definition on a product. It like calling boats as wheel-less. Or calling digital cameras as filmless.
 
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Fogel70 said:
One of my mirrors have become mirrorless by accident.

IMO mirrorless camera is a stupid definition on a product. It like calling boats as wheel-less. Or calling digital cameras as filmless.
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Just shows how narrow some people are with logic.

Just because it is stupid sometimes doesn't make it stupid always. Sometimes it is appropriate, and this is one such. Why do you think the term "-less" arose? Not because people are *stupid*, but because sometimes it works.
 
TN Args said:
Fogel70 said:
One of my mirrors have become mirrorless by accident.

IMO mirrorless camera is a stupid definition on a product. It like calling boats as wheel-less. Or calling digital cameras as filmless.
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Just shows how narrow some people are with logic.

Just because it is stupid sometimes doesn't make it stupid always. Sometimes it is appropriate, and this is one such. Why do you think the term "-less" arose? Not because people are *stupid*, but because sometimes it works.
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The sometimes that it works though is by and large where the item with "it" is the norm, and the "less" is the exception, for example as previously mentioned, "flightless birds" and at one point in time "horseless carriage".

As we're now at a point where mirrorless is rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception (purely based on number of variations, I don't want to get into an argument as to whether one is "killing" the other or whatever), I can certainly reason with the fact that still defining it by what it's missing it becoming a bit stupid, and perhaps it's time a better name is found.

Sorry if that logic is too narrow for you.
 
Dheorl said:
TN Args said:
Fogel70 said:
One of my mirrors have become mirrorless by accident.

IMO mirrorless camera is a stupid definition on a product. It like calling boats as wheel-less. Or calling digital cameras as filmless.
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Just shows how narrow some people are with logic.

Just because it is stupid sometimes doesn't make it stupid always. Sometimes it is appropriate, and this is one such. Why do you think the term "-less" arose? Not because people are *stupid*, but because sometimes it works.
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The sometimes that it works though is by and large where the item with "it" is the norm, and the "less" is the exception, for example as previously mentioned, "flightless birds" and at one point in time "horseless carriage".

As we're now at a point where mirrorless is rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception (purely based on number of variations, I don't want to get into an argument as to whether one is "killing" the other or whatever), I can certainly reason with the fact that still defining it by what it's missing it becoming a bit stupid, and perhaps it's time a better name is found.
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"Compact System Cameras" made a lot of sense to me, but it failed.

Here are more examples of where it is not 'stupid' to name things by what they lack, link.
 
TN Args said:
Dheorl said:
TN Args said:
Fogel70 said:
One of my mirrors have become mirrorless by accident.

IMO mirrorless camera is a stupid definition on a product. It like calling boats as wheel-less. Or calling digital cameras as filmless.
Click to expand...
Just shows how narrow some people are with logic.

Just because it is stupid sometimes doesn't make it stupid always. Sometimes it is appropriate, and this is one such. Why do you think the term "-less" arose? Not because people are *stupid*, but because sometimes it works.
Click to expand...
The sometimes that it works though is by and large where the item with "it" is the norm, and the "less" is the exception, for example as previously mentioned, "flightless birds" and at one point in time "horseless carriage".

As we're now at a point where mirrorless is rapidly becoming the norm rather than the exception (purely based on number of variations, I don't want to get into an argument as to whether one is "killing" the other or whatever), I can certainly reason with the fact that still defining it by what it's missing it becoming a bit stupid, and perhaps it's time a better name is found.
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"Compact System Cameras" made a lot of sense to me, but it failed.

Here are more examples of where it is not 'stupid' to name things by what they lack, link.
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And as mentioned, they are all in the minority of their respective categories, or tbh in most of the cases listed simply false. Something that no longer applies to mirrorless.

And yes, that isn't a bad name, if it weren't for the fact many DSLRs are just as compact.
 
nuke12 said:
Alex Zeee said:
I wasn't aware there was a rule that it had to be an ILC 😂 Some people really take it too seriously, my old Kodak disposable cameras are mirrorless, the Cybershots my dad used to use are mirrorless, the billions of phones with cameras are mirrorless, etc etc etc. Hell, webcams are mirrorless. The name literally implies that it has no mirror so I mean it should be an open and shut case no?
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I thought so when I first started on this site but I was quickly jumped on by a number users. Maybe they just wanted to distance themselves from the P&S users but it's a true story. Honestly, I still don't know but I've tried to follow the rules, I was told at that time so I don't get lamb based again. As of late, I'm just confused on the question.
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