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D3300 to D810/D850 for landscape photography?

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Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
How can you have "delays in triggering" for a feature you don't have? You can't. You're making up a lie here for your own argument's sake, Tony.
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I find that very offensive. The D3300 has Exposure Delay Mode. It will accomplish what amounts to MLU but with a requisite delay, and that delay is problematic (even just for a single shot).
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Don't be offended at me due to your lack of technical information. Cite the page of the D3300 manual that states exposure delay mode is available. I have yet to find it.
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Page 6.
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Nope. That is not a 2 second exposure delay mode. That is a 2 second delay to tripping both mirror and then shutter.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Second, the main factor that led to loss of such detail at 50mm is lens based, i.e. MTF at high spatial frequency. Hence using a longer focal length which will, generally, have greater MTF for those details which are now at a lower spatial frequency.
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You're ignoring the role of DOF and diffraction, so as you stop down to get back DOF you increase diffraction, and you also slow down the shutter speed (or raise the ISO). You are also ignoring the greater magnification of vibration that a 100mm lens will record compared to a 50mm lens. Finally, if you have a blurry 50mm shot then even disregarding all of the above you may well any resolution replacing it with a blurry 100mm shot.
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It's better to have a longer shutter duration if worried about vibration from mirror slap.
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Get your facts straight. What shutter speeds? Going from 1/200s at 50mm to 1/100s at 100mm is not going to be better. Going from 1/25s to 1/13s is not going to be better either.
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Get your facts straight, Tony. The less the exposure captures light during the period of vibrations, the less it's influence on the final image. Exposure 101, really.
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For longer exposures, such as two seconds and longer that's fine, but for exposures of less than a second it's not. Lengthening an exposure time into the problem zone is not going to make the issue less severe.
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Maybe. I've just seen some data that suggests shorter times can be permitted, and certainly if you're within the decay period, you can have chaotic results. And not only that, it suggests that DX mirror slap to be mostly dampened by the time the first shutter curtain releases as well.
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DX mirrors are smaller than FX mirrors and consequently have somewhat less vibration, but smaller bodies suffer more from shutter and mirror induced vibration. It's another reason to upgrade to a D7200.
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Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
I'm not ignoring the magnification from the change in focal length. I'm saying it's not as limiting an issue as you claim it to be and that there are more impactful issues to deal with: MTF of the lens.
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I bet I can get more out of a 50mm lens with proper technique than you can get out of a 100mm lens with sloppy technique (which is what you're advocating here).
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What I'm proposing is several avenues for the OP to consider to get them to their goal of larger prints, not sloppy technique.
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"You don't need tack sharpness when you have infinite resolution."

Not only sloppy technique, but magical thinking too.
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Take an introspection on your own thinking first Tony.
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Why don't you put your camera on a tripod and see if you can trigger the issue I'm talking about rather than throwing around opinions and insults?
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Calling my technique sloppy and my thinking magical aren’t insults? Do you not realize the lies you keep writing?
Tony Beach said:
I can tell you after having done a little testing yesterday that it's a mixed bag using a 50mm lens with MLU versus using a 100mm without it (both on a solid tripod). At the point of focus detail was essentially the same using f/5.6 and 1/125s with MLU with the 50mm and f/16 and 1/15s without MLU on the 105mm; at greater distances from the point of focus I could make out more detail with the 105mm lens, and there is the advantage of using a larger sensor surface area with the 105mm lens.
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Not surprising.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Are the returns diminishing, yes. But that doesn't preclude the D3300 from accomplishing the current goals of the OP. The OP doesn't have to go out and buy $5000 of new gear simply because the D3300 lacks Mup mode.
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An $800 D7200 will do, but thanks for the excellent example of a Strawman argument.
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You're right Tony. Bringing up a D7200 is another excellent example of the strawmen you like to create.
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You don't know what a Strawman argument is. Look it up. Claiming I want the OP to spend $5000 when I never said that is a classic example of a Strawman argument; recommending a camera that costs a few hundred dollars that has MLU is not a Strawman argument.
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I know quite well what it is, Tony. Perhaps you need the refresher. I've proposed 2 avenues for the OP. The first was a $5000 gear upgrade. The other is likely around $1500 for gear to augment the D3300. You chose to reply and argue about the latter point. Then you decide to throw in a 3rd proposal (hence the strawman) which is not relevant to the discussion in order to deflect counter-arguments. I recognize and call out those kinds of traps when I see them.
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Posted before your post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61092512

I specifically recommended a D7200 in that post. As to my initial reply to you, you didn't put any numbers on your two proposals, and I merely pointed out that the problem with your second proposal is that the D3300 not having MLU is problematic. Then you came back and accused me of proposing the OP spend $5000, which I never proposed.
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C'mon Tony. I know you can do the math of the prices of the gear without haven't to have it explicitly stated in a post.
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I addressed a specific issue that comes up with your second proposal -- the lack of MLU on the D3300. It's a valid issue and you have turned your refusal to acknowledge that into a protracted and toxic argument that isn't accomplishing anything.
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Another lie. When do the lies and insults stop, Tony?
Tony Beach said:
I specifically recommended the D7200 to the OP in an earlier post, so my position on this has been absolutely consistent and I stand by what I wrote in my first reply to you. You can choose to keep arguing that what I wrote was "misleading in its entirety" and I will continue to take issue with that.
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The argument has never been with your reply to the OP. Stop deflecting, Tony.
 
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
The camera needs to have a Mirror Up release mode which as far as I can tell currently, is available starting with 7000-series in DX form factor. So the OP would have to trade up from the D3300 to at least a D7100 to stay with DX and get MUP mode.
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What happens when you turn on Exposure Delay Mode? It's a rhetorical question.
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The D3300 does not have exposure delay mode either.
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There is a 2s delay option with the optional ML-L3 remote.
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It is not what you say it is.
 
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
By all means continue with your offensive replies.
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Don't be offended by me when you don't have your technical information correct.
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I know how to handle a camera. I've done stitching with many of my cameras dating back to DX cameras that I used. I know how handicapped a camera without a MLU (MUP in Nikon terminology) is and have dealt with it in the past (my first DSLR was a D70). Based on all of that I can say unequivocally that for me not having MLU on my camera is a dealbreaker, your dismissals notwithstanding.
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Good for you. You’re not the OP.
 
Tony Beach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
I'm pretty sure I could get a pixel sharp pano with a D3300,
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Not at commonly used slower shutter speeds without some extraordinary effort.
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I doubt you've ever actually used a D3300. In any event, I don't care about a D3300, and the OP wants a better camera, as he should if he wants to get serious about landscape shooting.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
but to get back on topic, the OP wants a better camera, as well he might. The most important thing in landscape photography is how many pixels and how much dynamic range. A D800e/810 with a 50D or a 35 D welded to f8 can give a very good account for very little money if his budget is very tight.
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I would still suggest a D800 or a D7200.
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A D800e /D810 are better for landscape than either of those. Without even delving into the whole DX lens situation, there is no way the OP should pass up 36MP to get 24.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
A decent tripod and polarizer for sure, but no need to go wild there.
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I always use a tripod; never use a polarizer (it's useful for shooting into water and seeing below the surface, but not for a lot of things it too often gets used for).
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A polarizer cuts the omnipresent haze, which then cuts down on the degree of Dehaze, etc. required to make the picture pop. I rarely take mine off.
 
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
The camera needs to have a Mirror Up release mode which as far as I can tell currently, is available starting with 7000-series in DX form factor. So the OP would have to trade up from the D3300 to at least a D7100 to stay with DX and get MUP mode.
Click to expand...
What happens when you turn on Exposure Delay Mode? It's a rhetorical question.
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The D3300 does not have exposure delay mode either.
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There is a 2s delay option with the optional ML-L3 remote.
Click to expand...
It is not what you say it is.
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What is the sequence that occurs in your copy of the D3300?
 
just Tony said:
Sara Valentine said:
The D3300 doesn't have MLU as you pointed out....

...

Are the returns diminishing, yes. But that doesn't preclude the D3300 from accomplishing the current goals of the OP. The OP doesn't have to go out and buy $5000 of new gear simply because the D3300 lacks Mup mode.
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According to the manual the D3300 has a shutter release mode called Delayed Remote which imposes a 2 second delay. I wonder if that is analogous to the Exposure Delay mode of my D810 in which the mirror flips up first, and then after the delay there is only the VERY much smaller vibration from the shutter curtain. Works great for 36 MP by the way.
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just Tony said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
The camera needs to have a Mirror Up release mode which as far as I can tell currently, is available starting with 7000-series in DX form factor. So the OP would have to trade up from the D3300 to at least a D7100 to stay with DX and get MUP mode.
Click to expand...
What happens when you turn on Exposure Delay Mode? It's a rhetorical question.
Click to expand...
The D3300 does not have exposure delay mode either.
Click to expand...
There is a 2s delay option with the optional ML-L3 remote.
Click to expand...
It is not what you say it is.
Click to expand...
What is the sequence that occurs in your copy of the D3300?

--
Render unto Digital, that which is Digital's,
and unto Analog, that which is Analog's
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Remote shutter button is pressed. Delay of 2 seconds with beeping. Mirror raises. First shutter curtain opens. Second shutter curtain closes. Mirror lowers. It does not insert a 2 second delay between mirror and first curtain which Tony is trying to imply.
 
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If the weight aspect of a 35mm camera is even a factor to be considered (and you singled weight out as an issue) then you should not upgrade. That D850's kilo -2.22 pounds - don't even consider a battery grip - will haunt you every day until you finally leave it on the shelf and take your phone.

Save yourself the exasperation of sore shoulders, sore back and a lighter wallet just for perceived image quality and increased functionality.

Full disclosure, I bought a D810 last June and, adding insult to injury, never use it without the battery grip and a fast prime- but, I spent decades shooting medium format handheld so I was throughly prepared for the agony of the massive weight and of course the loud earthshaking flapping mirror.
 
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Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
How can you have "delays in triggering" for a feature you don't have? You can't. You're making up a lie here for your own argument's sake, Tony.
Click to expand...
I find that very offensive. The D3300 has Exposure Delay Mode. It will accomplish what amounts to MLU but with a requisite delay, and that delay is problematic (even just for a single shot).
Click to expand...
Don't be offended at me due to your lack of technical information. Cite the page of the D3300 manual that states exposure delay mode is available. I have yet to find it.
Click to expand...
Page 6.
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Nope. That is not a 2 second exposure delay mode. That is a 2 second delay to tripping both mirror and then shutter.
Click to expand...
Perhaps true, I would like to see how the mirror behaves now that you pointed that out.

As to the rest of your reply -- User Ignored is the best response.
Sara Valentine said:
Do you not realize the lies you keep writing?
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***
Sara Valentine said:
Another lie. When do the lies and insults stop, Tony?
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Reilly Diefenbach said:
Tony Beach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
I'm pretty sure I could get a pixel sharp pano with a D3300,
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Not at commonly used slower shutter speeds without some extraordinary effort.
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I doubt you've ever actually used a D3300.
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I used a D70 which also doesn't have MLU.
Reilly Diefenbach said:
In any event, I don't care about a D3300, and the OP wants a better camera, as he should if he wants to get serious about landscape shooting.
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
but to get back on topic, the OP wants a better camera, as well he might. The most important thing in landscape photography is how many pixels and how much dynamic range. A D800e/810 with a 50D or a 35 D welded to f8 can give a very good account for very little money if his budget is very tight.
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I would still suggest a D800 or a D7200.
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A D800e /D810 are better for landscape than either of those.
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In what way are they better than the D800 for landscapes?
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
A decent tripod and polarizer for sure, but no need to go wild there.
Click to expand...
I always use a tripod; never use a polarizer (it's useful for shooting into water and seeing below the surface, but not for a lot of things it too often gets used for).
Click to expand...
A polarizer cuts the omnipresent haze, which then cuts down on the degree of Dehaze, etc. required to make the picture pop. I rarely take mine off.
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Okay, but I still am not sold on them as a must-have item. It is also problematic for wide angle photography.
 
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
How can you have "delays in triggering" for a feature you don't have? You can't. You're making up a lie here for your own argument's sake, Tony.
Click to expand...
I find that very offensive. The D3300 has Exposure Delay Mode. It will accomplish what amounts to MLU but with a requisite delay, and that delay is problematic (even just for a single shot).
Click to expand...
Don't be offended at me due to your lack of technical information. Cite the page of the D3300 manual that states exposure delay mode is available. I have yet to find it.
Click to expand...
Page 6.
Click to expand...
Nope. That is not a 2 second exposure delay mode. That is a 2 second delay to tripping both mirror and then shutter.
Click to expand...
Perhaps true, I would like to see how the mirror behaves now that you pointed that out.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true.
Tony Beach said:
As to the rest of your reply -- User Ignored is the best response.
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Happy to know I wouldn't have to keep combating and correcting your mistakes.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Do you not realize the lies you keep writing?
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***
Tony Beach said:
Another lie. When do the lies and insults stop, Tony?
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Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
A D800e /D810 are better for landscape than either of those.
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In what way are they better than the D800 for landscapes?
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Better detail, less sharpening needed=lower noise. Don't even bother with the aliasing stuff. I prefer my pixels unblurred.
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
A decent tripod and polarizer for sure, but no need to go wild there.
Click to expand...
I always use a tripod; never use a polarizer (it's useful for shooting into water and seeing below the surface, but not for a lot of things it too often gets used for).
Click to expand...
A polarizer cuts the omnipresent haze, which then cuts down on the degree of Dehaze, etc. required to make the picture pop. I rarely take mine off.
Click to expand...
Okay, but I still am not sold on them as a must-have item. It is also problematic for wide angle photography.
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It is not terribly problematic if one knows how to stretch a gradient. I will not often sacrifice foreground/subject clarity to save a little bit of work on the sky in post. But that's just perfectionist me.
 
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Tony Beach said:
Reilly Diefenbach said:
I'm pretty sure I could get a pixel sharp pano with a D3300,
Click to expand...
Not at commonly used slower shutter speeds without some extraordinary effort.
Tony Beach said:
but to get back on topic, the OP wants a better camera, as well he might. The most important thing in landscape photography is how many pixels and how much dynamic range. A D800e/810 with a 50D or a 35 D welded to f8 can give a very good account for very little money if his budget is very tight.
Click to expand...
I would still suggest a D800 or a D7200.
Tony Beach said:
A decent tripod and polarizer for sure, but no need to go wild there.
Click to expand...
I always use a tripod; never use a polarizer (it's useful for shooting into water and seeing below the surface, but not for a lot of things it too often gets used for).
Click to expand...
Ot only for reflections on water but for light reflection of leaves and other foliage
 
I'm definitely going to look for a sturdier tripod and head regardless of what camera body I end up with. I usually use f/5.6 or f/8 since it's an APS-C sensor and I get decent results with a remote shutter release as long as it's bright enough to use ISO 100 and a very fast shutter speed. I only have a pretty cheap tripod with an annoying pan-and-tilt head (because who's going to buy a $300 camera with a $300 tripod? I didn't recognize their importance starting out).
 
I did some testing today; all of the remote delay and self-timer features simply delay the entire capture process. The mirror never moves until immediately before the shutter activates. Even in live mode with auto-focus disabled the mirror seems to insist on moving back into the way just so that it can move away again and cause needless vibration...
 
The D800E is an interesting option at the price. Is there a reason not to replace the 24 and 50 with a 24-70 G, or the 24 and 14 with the 16-35 G?
 
I'll definitely try stitching once I get a better tripod and an entrance pupil slide base. I haven't had much luck getting clean edges rotating on a regular tripod about the camera axis or trying to rotate around the entrance pupil axis freehand.
 
Sara Valentine said:
just Tony said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
Tony Beach said:
Sara Valentine said:
The camera needs to have a Mirror Up release mode which as far as I can tell currently, is available starting with 7000-series in DX form factor. So the OP would have to trade up from the D3300 to at least a D7100 to stay with DX and get MUP mode.
Click to expand...
What happens when you turn on Exposure Delay Mode? It's a rhetorical question.
Click to expand...
The D3300 does not have exposure delay mode either.
Click to expand...
There is a 2s delay option with the optional ML-L3 remote.
Click to expand...
It is not what you say it is.
Click to expand...
What is the sequence that occurs in your copy of the D3300?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
a-b said:
I did some testing today; all of the remote delay and self-timer features simply delay the entire capture process. The mirror never moves until immediately before the shutter activates.
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Then it's as I said initially, only worse -- the camera isn't suitable for that sort of work. It's a dealbreaker for me, but not for Sara.
a-b said:
Even in live mode with auto-focus disabled the mirror seems to insist on moving back into the way just so that it can move away again and cause needless vibration...
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That's about the aperture resetting. Same thing happens to my D300 in that mode, but at least it has a MUP release mode.
 
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