M50 & 4K

Canon: We have a new EOS mirrorless M50 with 4K video! 4K VIDEO!!!!
.
Me: Hey look, Canon intentionally crippled their 4K camera.
.
M-Forum: Why are you complaining? It's 4K
.
Me: Not really, it's cropped and using it deactivates the DPAF.
.
M-Forum: Why can't you accept it. They didn't cripple it & it was overheating with DPAF.
.
Me: Because it's not 4K and it's intentionally crippled. They are known to do this.
.
M-Forum: Stop complaining. Where's your evidence it was intentional?
.
Canon: We could have released the M50 with full 4K with DPAF and it was feasible to do so... but we intentionally crippled the M50 for marketing reasons.
.
M-Forum: Hey look, Canon really did cripple their own camera.
.
Me: <facepalm>
but
Canon said:

We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can, and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible.
So, I don't know how you translate "it was not possible" into "Canon intentionally crippled their camera".

Some people looks to think than cherry pick some part of what Canon said or blatantly misinterpret the message help them to make a point. But it just makes them look stupid or dishonest.

To reassure you, you are far from being alone doing such thing on this thread - forum - DPreview
CANON: "...With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV."
.
TRANSLATION: We crippled the M50 intentionally because it was positioned as an Entry Level Camera.
No.

TRANSLATION: given the price point of the M50, we cannot reproduce the image pipeline of the 5D4.
If Digic 8 can't do 4k and DPAF then we won't be seeing these two features mated in any APS-C camera anytime soon. If Digic 8 can do this then it is all firmware related and any camera with Digic 8 can provide 4k and DPAF and the M50 is gimped purely for marketing reasons. If Digic 8 isn't up to the task then Canon has a big technical problem on their hands considering the 5D4 uses dual Digic 6 processors which is two generations back.
The image pipeline is a bit more complex than just a processor.
Not that complicated. 4k capable devices are showing up everywhere and at all price points.
And which one has DPAF at this price point ?
Go back and read the thread Marco was referring to. This was discussed ad nauseum.
His post is only cherry quoting and misinterpretation, as I already said. There is nothing in this post that prove your point. If there is a thread with a proof instead of empty accusation, please link it.

Otherwise, it is you and Marco and others who repeat ad nauseum your accusation without anything solid to back it up.

oh, and you still do not answer the question : which camera below 1000$ with a sensor at least as large as 1” has DPAF when 4K ?
What does sensor size have to do with DPAF? Especially when the M50 only reads a crop equivalent of around 8.1mp. A Galaxy S8 has DPAF, does 4k at 30 fps and sells for $600.
Plus, it is not the point. You said Canon intentionally crippled the camera. The fact that other manufacturer would have the tech would not prove that canon could have done it for this price but disabled the function.
Canon gimped the M50 for marketing reasons. Either that or they are technically incompetent. I will go with the gimping. Too many others are providing 4k in lesser devices for Canon to have not done so in a camera sporting their latest and greatest technology. Basic DPAF has not changed since the 70D so I don't buy that it is some massive computational burden for the M50. Besides, why is DPAF a larger burden for video than it is for stills or doing 1080p/60fps video? Especially when codec chips offload most of the compression duties for encoding MP4 video and these chips are dirt cheap to buy in bulk.
Where do you see even the beginning of a proof here ? You try to contradict Canon with nothing more than assumptions...

It is as stupid as saying Sony intentionally crippled the A6000 because the A6300 gain 4K while both has a bionz X...

May be it is the moment to quote some other parts of the interview :
Where do you not see the beginnings of proof?
Canon said:

The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]
Again, they said they don't have the tech at the right price yet.
I read a lot of dancing around with words that wasn't definitive one way or the other. It seemed like they were throwing up an intentional smoke screen to me. Besides do you think Canon would tell use at this point that they gimped the M50 for purposes of only product differentiation?
Canon said:

Another point is that consumption of 4K footage in terms of devices to view 4K video – the penetration of those devices in the market, and their adoption, was a little faster than we expected.
And they also acknowledge that their development schedule is behind the curve because they misjudge 4K usage evolution

It is far from "Canon intentionally crippled their camera"
... or they did not want to eat into sales of their cinema line of cameras. How much do you want to bet that the M5 replacement will use the same sensor and image processor as the M50 and do 4k with DPAF?
 
Canon: We have a new EOS mirrorless M50 with 4K video! 4K VIDEO!!!!
.
Me: Hey look, Canon intentionally crippled their 4K camera.
.
M-Forum: Why are you complaining? It's 4K
.
Me: Not really, it's cropped and using it deactivates the DPAF.
.
M-Forum: Why can't you accept it. They didn't cripple it & it was overheating with DPAF.
.
Me: Because it's not 4K and it's intentionally crippled. They are known to do this.
.
M-Forum: Stop complaining. Where's your evidence it was intentional?
.
Canon: We could have released the M50 with full 4K with DPAF and it was feasible to do so... but we intentionally crippled the M50 for marketing reasons.
.
M-Forum: Hey look, Canon really did cripple their own camera.
.
Me: <facepalm>
but
Canon said:

We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can, and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible.
So, I don't know how you translate "it was not possible" into "Canon intentionally crippled their camera".

Some people looks to think than cherry pick some part of what Canon said or blatantly misinterpret the message help them to make a point. But it just makes them look stupid or dishonest.

To reassure you, you are far from being alone doing such thing on this thread - forum - DPreview
CANON: "...With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV."
.
TRANSLATION: We crippled the M50 intentionally because it was positioned as an Entry Level Camera.
No.

TRANSLATION: given the price point of the M50, we cannot reproduce the image pipeline of the 5D4.
If Digic 8 can't do 4k and DPAF then we won't be seeing these two features mated in any APS-C camera anytime soon. If Digic 8 can do this then it is all firmware related and any camera with Digic 8 can provide 4k and DPAF and the M50 is gimped purely for marketing reasons. If Digic 8 isn't up to the task then Canon has a big technical problem on their hands considering the 5D4 uses dual Digic 6 processors which is two generations back.
The image pipeline is a bit more complex than just a processor.
Not that complicated. 4k capable devices are showing up everywhere and at all price points.
And which one has DPAF at this price point ?
Go back and read the thread Marco was referring to. This was discussed ad nauseum.
His post is only cherry quoting and misinterpretation, as I already said. There is nothing in this post that prove your point. If there is a thread with a proof instead of empty accusation, please link it.

Otherwise, it is you and Marco and others who repeat ad nauseum your accusation without anything solid to back it up.

oh, and you still do not answer the question : which camera below 1000$ with a sensor at least as large as 1” has DPAF when 4K ?
What does sensor size have to do with DPAF? Especially when the M50 only reads a crop equivalent of around 8.1mp. A Galaxy S8 has DPAF, does 4k at 30 fps and sells for $600.
Nothing.

But since we compare photo camera and we are a minimum interested in IQ, we should agree than it is more honest to compare devices were sensor and lens represent a significative amount of the device price and allow at least a given level of quality.

On your smartphone example, the sensor is optimize for speed and size instead of quality, the lens is very cheap too, and is coupled with a computer class processor.
Plus, it is not the point. You said Canon intentionally crippled the camera. The fact that other manufacturer would have the tech would not prove that canon could have done it for this price but disabled the function.
Canon gimped the M50 for marketing reasons. Either that or they are technically incompetent. I will go with the gimping. Too many others are providing 4k in lesser devices for Canon to have not done so in a camera sporting their latest and greatest technology. Basic DPAF has not changed since the 70D so I don't buy that it is some massive computational burden for the M50. Besides, why is DPAF a larger burden for video than it is for stills or doing 1080p/60fps video? Especially when codec chips offload most of the compression duties for encoding MP4 video and these chips are dirt cheap to buy in bulk.
Where do you see even the beginning of a proof here ? You try to contradict Canon with nothing more than assumptions...

It is as stupid as saying Sony intentionally crippled the A6000 because the A6300 gain 4K while both has a bionz X...

May be it is the moment to quote some other parts of the interview :
Where do you not see the beginnings of proof?
facepalm
Canon said:

The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]
Again, they said they don't have the tech at the right price yet.
I read a lot of dancing around with words that wasn't definitive one way or the other. It seemed like they were throwing up an intentional smoke screen to me.
They do dance around a lot. But the quotes I provided are clear. You should be able to pass through the blabla and retain the valuable information, but you seam to have ignored some important statements from your reading. May be confirmation bias ?
Besides do you think Canon would tell use at this point that they gimped the M50 for purposes of only product differentiation?
At this point it is conspiracy theory.
Canon said:

Another point is that consumption of 4K footage in terms of devices to view 4K video – the penetration of those devices in the market, and their adoption, was a little faster than we expected.
And they also acknowledge that their development schedule is behind the curve because they misjudge 4K usage evolution

It is far from "Canon intentionally crippled their camera"
... or they did not want to eat into sales of their cinema line of cameras.
Why release the 5D4 with 4K and DPAF then ?
How much do you want to bet that the M5 replacement will use the same sensor and image processor as the M50 and do 4k with DPAF?
And how be sure the components are the same. For example, Sony market all their processor Bionz X since several years.
 
Canon: We have a new EOS mirrorless M50 with 4K video! 4K VIDEO!!!!
.
Me: Hey look, Canon intentionally crippled their 4K camera.
.
M-Forum: Why are you complaining? It's 4K
.
Me: Not really, it's cropped and using it deactivates the DPAF.
.
M-Forum: Why can't you accept it. They didn't cripple it & it was overheating with DPAF.
.
Me: Because it's not 4K and it's intentionally crippled. They are known to do this.
.
M-Forum: Stop complaining. Where's your evidence it was intentional?
.
Canon: We could have released the M50 with full 4K with DPAF and it was feasible to do so... but we intentionally crippled the M50 for marketing reasons.
.
M-Forum: Hey look, Canon really did cripple their own camera.
.
Me: <facepalm>
but
Canon said:

We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can, and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible.
So, I don't know how you translate "it was not possible" into "Canon intentionally crippled their camera".

Some people looks to think than cherry pick some part of what Canon said or blatantly misinterpret the message help them to make a point. But it just makes them look stupid or dishonest.

To reassure you, you are far from being alone doing such thing on this thread - forum - DPreview
CANON: "...With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV."
.
TRANSLATION: We crippled the M50 intentionally because it was positioned as an Entry Level Camera.
No.

TRANSLATION: given the price point of the M50, we cannot reproduce the image pipeline of the 5D4.
If Digic 8 can't do 4k and DPAF then we won't be seeing these two features mated in any APS-C camera anytime soon. If Digic 8 can do this then it is all firmware related and any camera with Digic 8 can provide 4k and DPAF and the M50 is gimped purely for marketing reasons. If Digic 8 isn't up to the task then Canon has a big technical problem on their hands considering the 5D4 uses dual Digic 6 processors which is two generations back.
The image pipeline is a bit more complex than just a processor.
Not that complicated. 4k capable devices are showing up everywhere and at all price points.
And which one has DPAF at this price point ?
Go back and read the thread Marco was referring to. This was discussed ad nauseum.
His post is only cherry quoting and misinterpretation, as I already said. There is nothing in this post that prove your point. If there is a thread with a proof instead of empty accusation, please link it.

Otherwise, it is you and Marco and others who repeat ad nauseum your accusation without anything solid to back it up.

oh, and you still do not answer the question : which camera below 1000$ with a sensor at least as large as 1” has DPAF when 4K ?
What does sensor size have to do with DPAF? Especially when the M50 only reads a crop equivalent of around 8.1mp. A Galaxy S8 has DPAF, does 4k at 30 fps and sells for $600.
Nothing.

But since we compare photo camera and we are a minimum interested in IQ, we should agree than it is more honest to compare devices were sensor and lens represent a significative amount of the device price and allow at least a given level of quality.

On your smartphone example, the sensor is optimize for speed and size instead of quality, the lens is very cheap too, and is coupled with a computer class processor.
We are talking about producing 4k video using DPAF at 25 fps minimum. The IQ from an APS-C sensor is "baked in" to its design and doesn't require any more processing power to produce an image than a smart phone. Actually a smartphone likely does far more processing to the image after the shot is taken than an ILC camera.
Plus, it is not the point. You said Canon intentionally crippled the camera. The fact that other manufacturer would have the tech would not prove that canon could have done it for this price but disabled the function.
Canon gimped the M50 for marketing reasons. Either that or they are technically incompetent. I will go with the gimping. Too many others are providing 4k in lesser devices for Canon to have not done so in a camera sporting their latest and greatest technology. Basic DPAF has not changed since the 70D so I don't buy that it is some massive computational burden for the M50. Besides, why is DPAF a larger burden for video than it is for stills or doing 1080p/60fps video? Especially when codec chips offload most of the compression duties for encoding MP4 video and these chips are dirt cheap to buy in bulk.
Where do you see even the beginning of a proof here ? You try to contradict Canon with nothing more than assumptions...

It is as stupid as saying Sony intentionally crippled the A6000 because the A6300 gain 4K while both has a bionz X...

May be it is the moment to quote some other parts of the interview :
Where do you not see the beginnings of proof?
facepalm
Double face palm.
Canon said:

The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]
Again, they said they don't have the tech at the right price yet.
I read a lot of dancing around with words that wasn't definitive one way or the other. It seemed like they were throwing up an intentional smoke screen to me.
They do dance around a lot. But the quotes I provided are clear. You should be able to pass through the blabla and retain the valuable information, but you seam to have ignored some important statements from your reading. May be confirmation bias ?
Besides do you think Canon would tell use at this point that they gimped the M50 for purposes of only product differentiation?
At this point it is conspiracy theory.
It is a theory as valid as Canon doesn't have the technical prowess to deliver 4k video with DPAF.
Canon said:

Another point is that consumption of 4K footage in terms of devices to view 4K video – the penetration of those devices in the market, and their adoption, was a little faster than we expected.
And they also acknowledge that their development schedule is behind the curve because they misjudge 4K usage evolution

It is far from "Canon intentionally crippled their camera"
... or they did not want to eat into sales of their cinema line of cameras.
Why release the 5D4 with 4K and DPAF then ?
Well, have you seen the specs on the 4k coming from the 5D4? You had better have plenty of expensive C-fast cards it you plan on doing any recording lengths. Or terabytes of storage for all those massive video files it generates. Canon did this for a reason. Want to guess why?
How much do you want to bet that the M5 replacement will use the same sensor and image processor as the M50 and do 4k with DPAF?
And how be sure the components are the same. For example, Sony market all their processor Bionz X since several years.
Look at the specs for starters. I doubt Canon will produce multiple versions of Digic 8 processors just like they don't produce multiple versions of the 24mp APS-C DPAF sensor. It isn't part of their efficiency model for manufacturing.
 
Yes, if you have a look at the C100 film making camera you will note that adding DPAF adds about £700 to the cost and that is without 4k.Not sure how that translates to the M50 but I for one am pleased there is an entry model with 4k that is more keenly priced than say the Olympus OMD iii and some of the 1inch sensor Sony compacts, and you get DPAF for 1080p. For the asking price I’d call that good value
 
For the asking price I’d call that good value
I guess that it is all okay, but it is where we differ.

25p 4K without DPAF is utterly useless for me. I hope I'm a minority here....
Anyone that buys the M50 for its 4k ability will likely be very disappointed with it. Especially so if they intend to use AF with it.
 
Yes, if you have a look at the C100 film making camera you will note that adding DPAF adds about £700 to the cost and that is without 4k.Not sure how that translates to the M50 but I for one am pleased there is an entry model with 4k that is more keenly priced than say the Olympus OMD iii and some of the 1inch sensor Sony compacts, and you get DPAF for 1080p. For the asking price I’d call that good value
The 4K implementation has too many compromises.
1.6 X Crop
24 fps (this means everything you shoot has to match that same FPS rate)
No DPAF
No remote Smartphone operation, for single person vlogging.

If it is for video the Panasonic G85 is a much better value which sells for the same price and has lots of functionalities and none of the limits listed above.
 
Last edited:
Yes, if you have a look at the C100 film making camera you will note that adding DPAF adds about £700 to the cost and that is without 4k.Not sure how that translates to the M50 but I for one am pleased there is an entry model with 4k that is more keenly priced than say the Olympus OMD iii and some of the 1inch sensor Sony compacts, and you get DPAF for 1080p. For the asking price I’d call that good value
The 4K implementation has too many compromises.
1.6 X Crop
24 fps (this means everything you shoot has to match that same FPS rate)
No DPAF
No remote Smartphone operation, for single person vlogging.
This is odd because the SL2 allows use of the app in video mode.
If it is for video the Panasonic G85 is a much better value which sells for the same price and has lots of functionalities and none of the limits listed above.
 
Yes, if you have a look at the C100 film making camera you will note that adding DPAF adds about £700 to the cost and that is without 4k.Not sure how that translates to the M50 but I for one am pleased there is an entry model with 4k that is more keenly priced than say the Olympus OMD iii and some of the 1inch sensor Sony compacts, and you get DPAF for 1080p. For the asking price I’d call that good value
The 4K implementation has too many compromises.
1.6 X Crop
24 fps (this means everything you shoot has to match that same FPS rate)
No DPAF
No remote Smartphone operation, for single person vlogging.
If it is for video the Panasonic G85 is a much better value which sells for the same price and has lots of functionalities and none of the limits listed above.
or the GX85, GX9, X-T20, a6300, E-M10 III. These range from $100 more expensive to $300 less expensive and they all shoot 4k with fewer limitations.
 
Canon: We have a new EOS mirrorless M50 with 4K video! 4K VIDEO!!!!
.
Me: Hey look, Canon intentionally crippled their 4K camera.
.
M-Forum: Why are you complaining? It's 4K
.
Me: Not really, it's cropped and using it deactivates the DPAF.
.
M-Forum: Why can't you accept it. They didn't cripple it & it was overheating with DPAF.
.
Me: Because it's not 4K and it's intentionally crippled. They are known to do this.
.
M-Forum: Stop complaining. Where's your evidence it was intentional?
.
Canon: We could have released the M50 with full 4K with DPAF and it was feasible to do so... but we intentionally crippled the M50 for marketing reasons.
.
M-Forum: Hey look, Canon really did cripple their own camera.
.
Me: <facepalm>
but
Canon said:

We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can, and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible.
So, I don't know how you translate "it was not possible" into "Canon intentionally crippled their camera".

Some people looks to think than cherry pick some part of what Canon said or blatantly misinterpret the message help them to make a point. But it just makes them look stupid or dishonest.

To reassure you, you are far from being alone doing such thing on this thread - forum - DPreview
CANON: "...With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV."
.
TRANSLATION: We crippled the M50 intentionally because it was positioned as an Entry Level Camera.
No.

TRANSLATION: given the price point of the M50, we cannot reproduce the image pipeline of the 5D4.
If Digic 8 can't do 4k and DPAF then we won't be seeing these two features mated in any APS-C camera anytime soon. If Digic 8 can do this then it is all firmware related and any camera with Digic 8 can provide 4k and DPAF and the M50 is gimped purely for marketing reasons. If Digic 8 isn't up to the task then Canon has a big technical problem on their hands considering the 5D4 uses dual Digic 6 processors which is two generations back.
The image pipeline is a bit more complex than just a processor.
Not that complicated. 4k capable devices are showing up everywhere and at all price points.
And which one has DPAF at this price point ?
Go back and read the thread Marco was referring to. This was discussed ad nauseum.
His post is only cherry quoting and misinterpretation, as I already said. There is nothing in this post that prove your point. If there is a thread with a proof instead of empty accusation, please link it.

Otherwise, it is you and Marco and others who repeat ad nauseum your accusation without anything solid to back it up.

oh, and you still do not answer the question : which camera below 1000$ with a sensor at least as large as 1” has DPAF when 4K ?
What does sensor size have to do with DPAF? Especially when the M50 only reads a crop equivalent of around 8.1mp. A Galaxy S8 has DPAF, does 4k at 30 fps and sells for $600.
Nothing.

But since we compare photo camera and we are a minimum interested in IQ, we should agree than it is more honest to compare devices were sensor and lens represent a significative amount of the device price and allow at least a given level of quality.

On your smartphone example, the sensor is optimize for speed and size instead of quality, the lens is very cheap too, and is coupled with a computer class processor.
We are talking about producing 4k video using DPAF at 25 fps minimum. The IQ from an APS-C sensor is "baked in" to its design and doesn't require any more processing power to produce an image than a smart phone. Actually a smartphone likely does far more processing to the image after the shot is taken than an ILC camera.
You just don't understand the point. The silicon and the glass cost a lot more in a camera than on a phone. So for a phone, money can be invested in developing fast readout and processing. So it is easier for then to do 4k at a given price, but at the trade of IQ.
Plus, it is not the point. You said Canon intentionally crippled the camera. The fact that other manufacturer would have the tech would not prove that canon could have done it for this price but disabled the function.
Canon gimped the M50 for marketing reasons. Either that or they are technically incompetent. I will go with the gimping. Too many others are providing 4k in lesser devices for Canon to have not done so in a camera sporting their latest and greatest technology. Basic DPAF has not changed since the 70D so I don't buy that it is some massive computational burden for the M50. Besides, why is DPAF a larger burden for video than it is for stills or doing 1080p/60fps video? Especially when codec chips offload most of the compression duties for encoding MP4 video and these chips are dirt cheap to buy in bulk.
Where do you see even the beginning of a proof here ? You try to contradict Canon with nothing more than assumptions...

It is as stupid as saying Sony intentionally crippled the A6000 because the A6300 gain 4K while both has a bionz X...

May be it is the moment to quote some other parts of the interview :
Where do you not see the beginnings of proof?
facepalm
Double face palm.
triple facepalm
Canon said:

The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]
Again, they said they don't have the tech at the right price yet.
I read a lot of dancing around with words that wasn't definitive one way or the other. It seemed like they were throwing up an intentional smoke screen to me.
They do dance around a lot. But the quotes I provided are clear. You should be able to pass through the blabla and retain the valuable information, but you seam to have ignored some important statements from your reading. May be confirmation bias ?
Besides do you think Canon would tell use at this point that they gimped the M50 for purposes of only product differentiation?
At this point it is conspiracy theory.
It is a theory as valid as Canon doesn't have the technical prowess to deliver 4k video with DPAF.
you right. But since Canon already do 4K with DPAF, this theory has 0 validity, and so, as you said, it is the same for your "canon intentionally crippled the M50 4K".

The plausible theory, backed up by Canon representative statements, is that their implementation of DPAF with 4K is too expensive for M50.

More seriously, I was referring to conspiracy theorists because it is exactly the kind of argument they use when someone with knowledge and implications on the matter refute their assumptions.
Canon said:

Another point is that consumption of 4K footage in terms of devices to view 4K video – the penetration of those devices in the market, and their adoption, was a little faster than we expected.
And they also acknowledge that their development schedule is behind the curve because they misjudge 4K usage evolution

It is far from "Canon intentionally crippled their camera"
... or they did not want to eat into sales of their cinema line of cameras.
Why release the 5D4 with 4K and DPAF then ?
Well, have you seen the specs on the 4k coming from the 5D4? You had better have plenty of expensive C-fast cards it you plan on doing any recording lengths. Or terabytes of storage for all those massive video files it generates. Canon did this for a reason. Want to guess why?
So, 4K with DPAF was enough to eat into their cinema camera sale with the M50... and when someone prove you it is a stupid assumption because it has already been done, then you just add some other criteria... But who can think that a M50 is competitive with Canon cine camera except DPAF ?
How much do you want to bet that the M5 replacement will use the same sensor and image processor as the M50 and do 4k with DPAF?
And how be sure the components are the same. For example, Sony market all their processor Bionz X since several years.
Look at the specs for starters. I doubt Canon will produce multiple versions of Digic 8 processors just like they don't produce multiple versions of the 24mp APS-C DPAF sensor. It isn't part of their efficiency model for manufacturing.
You doubt, you assume, you guess the future... solid arguments !
 
Canon: We have a new EOS mirrorless M50 with 4K video! 4K VIDEO!!!!
.
Me: Hey look, Canon intentionally crippled their 4K camera.
.
M-Forum: Why are you complaining? It's 4K
.
Me: Not really, it's cropped and using it deactivates the DPAF.
.
M-Forum: Why can't you accept it. They didn't cripple it & it was overheating with DPAF.
.
Me: Because it's not 4K and it's intentionally crippled. They are known to do this.
.
M-Forum: Stop complaining. Where's your evidence it was intentional?
.
Canon: We could have released the M50 with full 4K with DPAF and it was feasible to do so... but we intentionally crippled the M50 for marketing reasons.
.
M-Forum: Hey look, Canon really did cripple their own camera.
.
Me: <facepalm>
but
Canon said:

We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can, and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible.
So, I don't know how you translate "it was not possible" into "Canon intentionally crippled their camera".

Some people looks to think than cherry pick some part of what Canon said or blatantly misinterpret the message help them to make a point. But it just makes them look stupid or dishonest.

To reassure you, you are far from being alone doing such thing on this thread - forum - DPreview
CANON: "...With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV."
.
TRANSLATION: We crippled the M50 intentionally because it was positioned as an Entry Level Camera.
No.

TRANSLATION: given the price point of the M50, we cannot reproduce the image pipeline of the 5D4.
If Digic 8 can't do 4k and DPAF then we won't be seeing these two features mated in any APS-C camera anytime soon. If Digic 8 can do this then it is all firmware related and any camera with Digic 8 can provide 4k and DPAF and the M50 is gimped purely for marketing reasons. If Digic 8 isn't up to the task then Canon has a big technical problem on their hands considering the 5D4 uses dual Digic 6 processors which is two generations back.
The image pipeline is a bit more complex than just a processor.
Not that complicated. 4k capable devices are showing up everywhere and at all price points.
And which one has DPAF at this price point ?
Go back and read the thread Marco was referring to. This was discussed ad nauseum.
His post is only cherry quoting and misinterpretation, as I already said. There is nothing in this post that prove your point. If there is a thread with a proof instead of empty accusation, please link it.

Otherwise, it is you and Marco and others who repeat ad nauseum your accusation without anything solid to back it up.

oh, and you still do not answer the question : which camera below 1000$ with a sensor at least as large as 1” has DPAF when 4K ?
What does sensor size have to do with DPAF? Especially when the M50 only reads a crop equivalent of around 8.1mp. A Galaxy S8 has DPAF, does 4k at 30 fps and sells for $600.
Nothing.

But since we compare photo camera and we are a minimum interested in IQ, we should agree than it is more honest to compare devices were sensor and lens represent a significative amount of the device price and allow at least a given level of quality.

On your smartphone example, the sensor is optimize for speed and size instead of quality, the lens is very cheap too, and is coupled with a computer class processor.
We are talking about producing 4k video using DPAF at 25 fps minimum. The IQ from an APS-C sensor is "baked in" to its design and doesn't require any more processing power to produce an image than a smart phone. Actually a smartphone likely does far more processing to the image after the shot is taken than an ILC camera.
You just don't understand the point. The silicon and the glass cost a lot more in a camera than on a phone. So for a phone, money can be invested in developing fast readout and processing. So it is easier for then to do 4k at a given price, but at the trade of IQ.
Fast readout is a function of fps not a function of quantity of data. Where we will know for sure that the M50 is gimped solely for marketing reasons is if the M5 successor has the same processor and sensor but does 4k at 30 fps with full readout.
Plus, it is not the point. You said Canon intentionally crippled the camera. The fact that other manufacturer would have the tech would not prove that canon could have done it for this price but disabled the function.
Canon gimped the M50 for marketing reasons. Either that or they are technically incompetent. I will go with the gimping. Too many others are providing 4k in lesser devices for Canon to have not done so in a camera sporting their latest and greatest technology. Basic DPAF has not changed since the 70D so I don't buy that it is some massive computational burden for the M50. Besides, why is DPAF a larger burden for video than it is for stills or doing 1080p/60fps video? Especially when codec chips offload most of the compression duties for encoding MP4 video and these chips are dirt cheap to buy in bulk.
Where do you see even the beginning of a proof here ? You try to contradict Canon with nothing more than assumptions...

It is as stupid as saying Sony intentionally crippled the A6000 because the A6300 gain 4K while both has a bionz X...

May be it is the moment to quote some other parts of the interview :
Where do you not see the beginnings of proof?
facepalm
Double face palm.
triple facepalm
You can't do a triple face palm. You only have two palms....or at least most people do.
Canon said:

The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]
Again, they said they don't have the tech at the right price yet.
I read a lot of dancing around with words that wasn't definitive one way or the other. It seemed like they were throwing up an intentional smoke screen to me.
They do dance around a lot. But the quotes I provided are clear. You should be able to pass through the blabla and retain the valuable information, but you seam to have ignored some important statements from your reading. May be confirmation bias ?
Besides do you think Canon would tell use at this point that they gimped the M50 for purposes of only product differentiation?
At this point it is conspiracy theory.
It is a theory as valid as Canon doesn't have the technical prowess to deliver 4k video with DPAF.
you right. But since Canon already do 4K with DPAF, this theory has 0 validity, and so, as you said, it is the same for your "canon intentionally crippled the M50 4K".

The plausible theory, backed up by Canon representative statements, is that their implementation of DPAF with 4K is too expensive for M50.

More seriously, I was referring to conspiracy theorists because it is exactly the kind of argument they use when someone with knowledge and implications on the matter refute their assumptions.
Here is Canon's response about the M50 not having DPAF with 4k:

"With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV. Given the position of the product, we wanted to achieve the optimal balance [of features] in a camera in that range. We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can [for its market position], and within those parameters, the combination of 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus was not possible."

Read it carefully. They only state that the M50 can not have 4k and DPAF due to "position of the product" and "We’ve optimized the M50 as best we can [for its market position]." Nothing stated is relative to technical reasons.
Canon said:

Another point is that consumption of 4K footage in terms of devices to view 4K video – the penetration of those devices in the market, and their adoption, was a little faster than we expected.
And they also acknowledge that their development schedule is behind the curve because they misjudge 4K usage evolution

It is far from "Canon intentionally crippled their camera"
... or they did not want to eat into sales of their cinema line of cameras.
Why release the 5D4 with 4K and DPAF then ?
Well, have you seen the specs on the 4k coming from the 5D4? You had better have plenty of expensive C-fast cards it you plan on doing any recording lengths. Or terabytes of storage for all those massive video files it generates. Canon did this for a reason. Want to guess why?
So, 4K with DPAF was enough to eat into their cinema camera sale with the M50... and when someone prove you it is a stupid assumption because it has already been done, then you just add some other criteria... But who can think that a M50 is competitive with Canon cine camera except DPAF ?
There is a food chain in play. The M50 eats into 5D4/1DX2 sales and future models like the M5/2 etc. You are thinking in one dimension. There are layers of products in play.
How much do you want to bet that the M5 replacement will use the same sensor and image processor as the M50 and do 4k with DPAF?
And how be sure the components are the same. For example, Sony market all their processor Bionz X since several years.
Look at the specs for starters. I doubt Canon will produce multiple versions of Digic 8 processors just like they don't produce multiple versions of the 24mp APS-C DPAF sensor. It isn't part of their efficiency model for manufacturing.
You doubt, you assume, you guess the future... solid arguments !
What are you doing? What are we all doing? Some are just doing it using better reasoning and logic.
 
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I think you have a fair point if you need DPAF and 4k. It would wonderful to have this from a $500 camera. That would be a killer feature, particularly as no one else is doing canons implementation of DPAF in 4k.

im fine with 1080p for what I do. It holds up well on my 7D mkii. To improve on that it’s going to cost a whole lot more cash. However on the other hand the M50 offers people like me who are budget conscious and occasional video shoots some nice options for the price.
 
The good news is it is a gimped camera. The bad news is it is a gimped camera. Looks like we will get 4K with DPAF but you will pay through the nose to have it. This is based on a $780 offering price for the M50.
Good news, you can buy a video camera. Bad news, Video is costing photographers that don't want it money. I don't want to pay for 1k,2k,3k or more.
The good news is I get to choose how I spend my money. Also, video has little to do with adding cost to cameras from a manufacturing perspective. This is why 4k video capability is the norm for most MILC cameras these days. One day DPAF will not be the only option for good video AF and then Canon will have missed their opportunity to sell a lot ILCs with a unique video AF system as a major draw to do so.
Believe what you want. They don't throw video in because there nice.
 
The good news is it is a gimped camera. The bad news is it is a gimped camera. Looks like we will get 4K with DPAF but you will pay through the nose to have it. This is based on a $780 offering price for the M50.
Good news, you can buy a video camera. Bad news, Video is costing photographers that don't want it money. I don't want to pay for 1k,2k,3k or more.
The good news is I get to choose how I spend my money. Also, video has little to do with adding cost to cameras from a manufacturing perspective. This is why 4k video capability is the norm for most MILC cameras these days. One day DPAF will not be the only option for good video AF and then Canon will have missed their opportunity to sell a lot ILCs with a unique video AF system as a major draw to do so.
Believe what you want. They don't throw video in because there nice.
They provide it because most people want it. Canon could get almost every vlogger and other heavy video user as a customer if they weren't so stingy with 4k plus DPAF, 120 fps 1080p and better codecs and bit rates in their ILC camera line.
 
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The good news is it is a gimped camera. The bad news is it is a gimped camera. Looks like we will get 4K with DPAF but you will pay through the nose to have it. This is based on a $780 offering price for the M50.
Good news, you can buy a video camera. Bad news, Video is costing photographers that don't want it money. I don't want to pay for 1k,2k,3k or more.
The good news is I get to choose how I spend my money. Also, video has little to do with adding cost to cameras from a manufacturing perspective. This is why 4k video capability is the norm for most MILC cameras these days. One day DPAF will not be the only option for good video AF and then Canon will have missed their opportunity to sell a lot ILCs with a unique video AF system as a major draw to do so.
Believe what you want. They don't throw video in because there nice.
They provide it because most people want it. Canon could get almost every vlogger and other heavy video user as a customer if they weren't so stingy with 4k plus DPAF, 120 fps 1080p and better codecs and bit rates in their ILC camera line.
Most people want ? Ok great . Like I said . I pay more for something I don't want . God forbid it have focus stacking or something a photograph would use.
 
The good news is it is a gimped camera. The bad news is it is a gimped camera. Looks like we will get 4K with DPAF but you will pay through the nose to have it. This is based on a $780 offering price for the M50.
Good news, you can buy a video camera. Bad news, Video is costing photographers that don't want it money. I don't want to pay for 1k,2k,3k or more.
The good news is I get to choose how I spend my money. Also, video has little to do with adding cost to cameras from a manufacturing perspective. This is why 4k video capability is the norm for most MILC cameras these days. One day DPAF will not be the only option for good video AF and then Canon will have missed their opportunity to sell a lot ILCs with a unique video AF system as a major draw to do so.
Believe what you want. They don't throw video in because there nice.
They provide it because most people want it. Canon could get almost every vlogger and other heavy video user as a customer if they weren't so stingy with 4k plus DPAF, 120 fps 1080p and better codecs and bit rates in their ILC camera line.
Most people want ? Ok great . Like I said . I pay more for something I don't want . God forbid it have focus stacking or something a photograph would use.
Explain to me why every ILC camera is video capable.
 
Throughout this discussion I keep seeing people dismiss the shortcomings of the M50 because it is a low end "budget" model. When did $900 become the low end? The M100 is $550/600 with the kit lens. The M100 is a "budget" camera. This M50 is $300 more expensive than the M100 and is $100 higher than the original M3 kit. With most other manufacturers, $900 gets you a nicely spec'ed mid-level camera kit.
 
Yes, if you have a look at the C100 film making camera you will note that adding DPAF adds about £700 to the cost and that is without 4k.Not sure how that translates to the M50 but I for one am pleased there is an entry model with 4k that is more keenly priced than say the Olympus OMD iii and some of the 1inch sensor Sony compacts, and you get DPAF for 1080p. For the asking price I’d call that good value
The 4K implementation has too many compromises.
1.6 X Crop
24 fps (this means everything you shoot has to match that same FPS rate)
No DPAF
No remote Smartphone operation, for single person vlogging.
If it is for video the Panasonic G85 is a much better value which sells for the same price and has lots of functionalities and none of the limits listed above.
or the GX85, GX9, X-T20, a6300, E-M10 III. These range from $100 more expensive to $300 less expensive and they all shoot 4k with fewer limitations.
Do not forget the £300 FZ82. With Panasonic 4K is rolled out as a routine entry level basic function now. Easier with the smaller sensor I suppose but it is getting a bit silly that there is no sign of it in the Canon compacts yet. What is humdrum to the rest seems always to be exotic and pricey when it finally makes it in to a Canon.
 
Throughout this discussion I keep seeing people dismiss the shortcomings of the M50 because it is a low end "budget" model. When did $900 become the low end? The M100 is $550/600 with the kit lens. The M100 is a "budget" camera. This M50 is $300 more expensive than the M100 and is $100 higher than the original M3 kit. With most other manufacturers, $900 gets you a nicely spec'ed mid-level camera kit.
$900 gets you an X-T20 with a much better kit lens.
 
Throughout this discussion I keep seeing people dismiss the shortcomings of the M50 because it is a low end "budget" model. When did $900 become the low end? The M100 is $550/600 with the kit lens. The M100 is a "budget" camera. This M50 is $300 more expensive than the M100 and is $100 higher than the original M3 kit. With most other manufacturers, $900 gets you a nicely spec'ed mid-level camera kit.
The M50 is advertised at £650 with a lens and £539 without. The M100 is £450 with a lens and the EVF-DC2 viewfinder is £219 for comparison of the extra cost of the EVF (as it doesn't fit the M100).

So this side of the Atlantic the M50 looks like a budget model.

And in relation to a previous post, when did the GX85, GX9, G85 and E-M10 III get APS-C sensors?
 

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