K1 IQ is OUTSTANDING...

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

So, as we already know, pentax IQ is pretty darn bloody outstanding and it continues to impress me and I have some walk around photos below to show how gorgeous the color output out of a K1 already is, in that aspect I'm really NOT envying Fuji. So that's out of the way.

Moving back to the AF subject. One poster in the other thread suggested to "ask for help" instead of sounding so jumpy with the original tittle and perhaps I should have asked something like what I'm doing wrong with the AF settings, so here it is:

Please note that I am NOT shooting in very low shutter speeds nor am I shooting wide open with the "super thin DOF". I took my time to focus on the corner of the very top right side rail of the closest chair you see. Instead the camera focused on the seat:



I took my time to focus on that closest huge vase towards the neck ring, but instead the camera focused on that second sculpture in the middle where the water is coming out:



I took my time to focus on this fish looking thing right in between the tail and that oval looking hole, but the freaking picture looks blurry/soft. Why is it soft when I'm shooting at 1/1000???

I am shooting in AF-S, Contrast AF, Release Priority AF. I will say that I could have set it to Auto Focus Priority but neither I or the subject is moving, and I have had the camera set to Focus Priority before and it still behaves the same. The AF in this pentax K1 reminds me of the terrible unpredictable Nikon D7000 I had years ago.

So are these results my fault too? Oh and these photos were taken with the pentax 24-70 not my sigma 85 1.4.

could your lens be back focusing - you can get proper lens measurement setups but I just use my kitchen wall with calendars on it and shoot along the edge - all but one of my lenses either forward or back focuses slightly and this is easily adjusted in camera AF fine adjustment and setting 3 applies the fine tune adjustment to individual lenses.

Cheers

Brett

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

Click to expand...

What thread? So, here is what we do know: The camera can focus because we see focused points in each photo. But in these examples, the focus points are not where you intended. That means there is a physical miscalculation. From the three examples you have provided, it would appear the camera is back focusing. Even in the fish example, the fin to the viewers right appears to be in focus. Any softness probably has to do with the f/2.8 aperture. Are you any good at adjusting calibration of lenses? (I'm not, and try to avoid doing so as much as I can.) Why don't you send the camera and the 24-70 lens in for a check up and calibration adjustment. If that proves successful, then you could adjust your other lens calibrations as needed on your own. This would define the problem and you would know what to do next. Good luck with this. It must be frustrating, but your photos are good (except for this "minor" problem.)

I appreciate you doing more detailed testing and asking for help...

1) back focus would be my guess, though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

2) back focus would be my guess though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

3) if its not back focus could it be that you had SR turned on and it ran a foul at higher shutter speeds, not likely but not impossible and has been known to happen

Perhaps run some AF adjustment tests and try again. 70mm F2.8 has definitely less DOF than 24mm F2.8 and will show focus error more readily so its best to focus on the long end.

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

So, as we already know, pentax IQ is pretty darn bloody outstanding and it continues to impress me and I have some walk around photos below to show how gorgeous the color output out of a K1 already is, in that aspect I'm really NOT envying Fuji. So that's out of the way.

Moving back to the AF subject. One poster in the other thread suggested to "ask for help" instead of sounding so jumpy with the original tittle and perhaps I should have asked something like what I'm doing wrong with the AF settings, so here it is:

Please note that I am NOT shooting in very low shutter speeds nor am I shooting wide open with the "super thin DOF". I took my time to focus on the corner of the very top right side rail of the closest chair you see. Instead the camera focused on the seat:

I took my time to focus on that closest huge vase towards the neck ring, but instead the camera focused on that second sculpture in the middle where the water is coming out:

I took my time to focus on this fish looking thing right in between the tail and that oval looking hole, but the freaking picture looks blurry/soft. Why is it soft when I'm shooting at 1/1000???

I am shooting in AF-S, Contrast AF, Release Priority AF. I will say that I could have set it to Auto Focus Priority but neither I or the subject is moving, and I have had the camera set to Focus Priority before and it still behaves the same. The AF in this pentax K1 reminds me of the terrible unpredictable Nikon D7000 I had years ago.

So are these results my fault too? Oh and these photos were taken with the pentax 24-70 not my sigma 85 1.4.

Click to expand...

You left out a bit of data:

What AF mode did you choose in Contrast AF (live View)?

If you are using multi-point , are you letting the camera choose the area?

If not, even if you select just one area of the 35, it will cover quite a large area in the image and the camera will focus on whatever has the highest contrast in that area (hence the name "Contrast AF").

Change the mode to Phase Detect AF, choose the center spot only and try again. The PDAF single points are a bit bigger than they look in the viewfinder, but my guess is that your camera will focus just fine a high percentage of the time.

In any event, make sure that the shake reduction is stabilized (or turn it off if the shutter speed is high enough) before taking the shot to avoid blur from the sensor moving while you are taking the shot.

If your camera does not focus properly in PDAF a high percentage of the time, then it might well have a problem.

RPulley said:

Change the mode to Phase Detect AF, choose the center spot only and try again. The PDAF single points are a bit bigger than they look in the viewfinder, but my guess is that your camera will focus just fine a high percentage of the time.

Click to expand...

My K-5 center AF point was at the top-right of the viewfinder's square indicator. Once that's known more precisely it should become easier to determine if back focus is the issue. No doubt posting on DPR is easier than all of that though, it's a very common first response and not just with the K-1. I sure wish I had a troublesome K-1 to adapt to :-|

MightyMike said:

I appreciate you doing more detailed testing and asking for help...

Click to expand...

Thank you, I will try.

MightyMike said:

1) back focus would be my guess, though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

2) back focus would be my guess though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

3) if its not back focus could it be that you had SR turned on and it ran a foul at higher shutter speeds, not likely but not impossible and has been known to happen

Click to expand...

I have SR ON. Is this a bad thing? I know I didn't need it at such high shutter speeds but would this cause the back focusing?

MightyMike said:

Perhaps run some AF adjustment tests and try again. 70mm F2.8 has definitely less DOF than 24mm F2.8 and will show focus error more readily so its best to focus on the long end.

Click to expand...

I already have done AF fine tuning so if my lens was not tuned properly it would be doing back focusing on everything, but this is not the case.

The same thing happen with the sigma 85mm. The times when I have gone walking around my street and shoot still subjects like a flower or a statue some of those darn photos did also come out unsharp. This is exactly that "odd" AF behavior me and others talk about and the weird thing is that I probably get more focused photos of people dancing and moving quite a bit faster and when I do stills the AF does this kind of garbage

This kind of AF reminds me of my Nikon D7000 and that means that the AF in this K1 could be VERY old which is kind of disappointing. A camera like this should not be doing this and that's the upsetting part about it :-(

The last few times that I have taken paid portraits I have to make sure I take at least three extra photos because the AF does this to me often.

I sure hope the K1II does not perform like this.

MightyMike said:

--
Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote '
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/search/[email protected]&thumbnails=

Click to expand...

SBS said:

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

Click to expand...

What thread? So, here is what we do know: The camera can focus because we see focused points in each photo. But in these examples, the focus points are not where you intended. That means there is a physical miscalculation. From the three examples you have provided, it would appear the camera is back focusing. Even in the fish example, the fin to the viewers right appears to be in focus. Any softness probably has to do with the f/2.8 aperture. Are you any good at adjusting calibration of lenses? (I'm not, and try to avoid doing so as much as I can.) Why don't you send the camera and the 24-70 lens in for a check up and calibration adjustment. If that proves successful, then you could adjust your other lens calibrations as needed on your own. This would define the problem and you would know what to do next. Good luck with this. It must be frustrating, but your photos are good (except for this "minor" problem.)

Click to expand...

Regarding the fish photo, if you blow it up a bit more you will see that is not a "back focus" issue, at least it doesn't look that way to my eyes, but instead it looks like the camera was shaken in some weird way, and I definitely do not think it has to do with taking that shot at 2.8. At that shutter speed that photo should have been frozen completely.

I wonder if this has something to do with having SR ON. Now, the back focusing that's a camera's poor AF based on my experience with other older cameras from several years ago, and that's not a nice thing.

RPulley said:

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

So, as we already know, pentax IQ is pretty darn bloody outstanding and it continues to impress me and I have some walk around photos below to show how gorgeous the color output out of a K1 already is, in that aspect I'm really NOT envying Fuji. So that's out of the way.

Moving back to the AF subject. One poster in the other thread suggested to "ask for help" instead of sounding so jumpy with the original tittle and perhaps I should have asked something like what I'm doing wrong with the AF settings, so here it is:

Please note that I am NOT shooting in very low shutter speeds nor am I shooting wide open with the "super thin DOF". I took my time to focus on the corner of the very top right side rail of the closest chair you see. Instead the camera focused on the seat:

I took my time to focus on that closest huge vase towards the neck ring, but instead the camera focused on that second sculpture in the middle where the water is coming out:

I took my time to focus on this fish looking thing right in between the tail and that oval looking hole, but the freaking picture looks blurry/soft. Why is it soft when I'm shooting at 1/1000???

I am shooting in AF-S, Contrast AF, Release Priority AF. I will say that I could have set it to Auto Focus Priority but neither I or the subject is moving, and I have had the camera set to Focus Priority before and it still behaves the same. The AF in this pentax K1 reminds me of the terrible unpredictable Nikon D7000 I had years ago.

So are these results my fault too? Oh and these photos were taken with the pentax 24-70 not my sigma 85 1.4.

Click to expand...

You left out a bit of data:

What AF mode did you choose in Contrast AF (live View)?

Click to expand...

No LV used here.

AF-S

In Phase Detection AF/The AF Active Area: SEL

What about the rest of the camera settings? Could there be an incorrect setting somewhere else? For a situation like this for the big huge vase how should Phase detection and Contrast Detection AF should be set?

RPulley said:

If you are using multi-point , are you letting the camera choose the area?

If not, even if you select just one area of the 35, it will cover quite a large area in the image and the camera will focus on whatever has the highest contrast in that area (hence the name "Contrast AF").

Change the mode to Phase Detect AF, choose the center spot only and try again. The PDAF single points are a bit bigger than they look in the viewfinder, but my guess is that your camera will focus just fine a high percentage of the time.

In any event, make sure that the shake reduction is stabilized (or turn it off if the shutter speed is high enough) before taking the shot to avoid blur from the sensor moving while you are taking the shot.

If your camera does not focus properly in PDAF a high percentage of the time, then it might well have a problem.

Click to expand...

Why am I having so much trouble with spelling? I try to write "title" but Pentax makes me write "tittle." Pentax needs to fix this now.

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

So, as we already know, pentax IQ is pretty darn bloody outstanding and it continues to impress me and I have some walk around photos below to show how gorgeous the color output out of a K1 already is, in that aspect I'm really NOT envying Fuji. So that's out of the way.

Moving back to the AF subject. One poster in the other thread suggested to "ask for help" instead of sounding so jumpy with the original tittle and perhaps I should have asked something like what I'm doing wrong with the AF settings, so here it is:

Please note that I am NOT shooting in very low shutter speeds nor am I shooting wide open with the "super thin DOF". I took my time to focus on the corner of the very top right side rail of the closest chair you see. Instead the camera focused on the seat:



I took my time to focus on that closest huge vase towards the neck ring, but instead the camera focused on that second sculpture in the middle where the water is coming out:



I took my time to focus on this fish looking thing right in between the tail and that oval looking hole, but the freaking picture looks blurry/soft. Why is it soft when I'm shooting at 1/1000???

I am shooting in AF-S, Contrast AF, Release Priority AF. I will say that I could have set it to Auto Focus Priority but neither I or the subject is moving, and I have had the camera set to Focus Priority before and it still behaves the same. The AF in this pentax K1 reminds me of the terrible unpredictable Nikon D7000 I had years ago.

So are these results my fault too? Oh and these photos were taken with the pentax 24-70 not my sigma 85 1.4.

Click to expand...

Nice colores.

I faced similar issues specialy with fa 43ltd for when attached with k1. Though the lens works flawless with k3ii. May be it is the lens. I use only AF/s centre point.

Try to photograph on manual focus. .to check problem where is it comes from .is it the camera or the lens.

Don't feel bad for some negative comments it is a popular forum.

--
pentaxian .

SBS said:

Batdude said:

...AF not so much :-(

Okay, let's forget about my other thread with the "jumpy" tittle regarding the disappointment in AF AND all the "bad" low light photos I took with such low shutter speeds.

Click to expand...

What thread? So, here is what we do know: The camera can focus because we see focused points in each photo. But in these examples, the focus points are not where you intended. That means there is a physical miscalculation. From the three examples you have provided, it would appear the camera is back focusing. Even in the fish example, the fin to the viewers right appears to be in focus. Any softness probably has to do with the f/2.8 aperture. Are you any good at adjusting calibration of lenses? (I'm not, and try to avoid doing so as much as I can.) Why don't you send the camera and the 24-70 lens in for a check up and calibration adjustment. If that proves successful, then you could adjust your other lens calibrations as needed on your own. This would define the problem and you would know what to do next. Good luck with this. It must be frustrating, but your photos are good (except for this "minor" problem.)

Click to expand...

+1 here.

Sent the combo in to Pentax. I did so too. Big difference after that.

Agreeing with Mike but expanding slightly

MightyMike said:

I appreciate you doing more detailed testing and asking for help...

1) back focus would be my guess, though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

Click to expand...

The camera will always focus on the highest Phase variance (not contrast) within the sensors vision it looks to me that what it did here (slats are always a favourite Phase hit , we had a member moaning same thing when Venetian blinds were in frame of his Nikon D7000)

MightyMike said:

2) back focus would be my guess though there is clutter so not a clear guaranteed subject to focus on

Click to expand...

Again tinkling water is always going to attract Phase detect AF

MightyMike said:

3) if its not back focus could it be that you had SR turned on and it ran a foul at higher shutter speeds, not likely but not impossible and has been known to happen

Click to expand...

Weird one this it looks like camera shake but shutter to high so yes could be SR , BF or depending how you have the camera set up AF movement during exposure time. I also note it has +3 exposure compensation though Don't think that'll effect AF but will effect expected IQ .

MightyMike said:

Perhaps run some AF adjustment tests and try again. 70mm F2.8 has definitely less DOF than 24mm F2.8 and will show focus error more readily so its best to focus on the long end.

Click to expand...

I'd also check the lens for optical imbalance as the fish has me concerned it may be de-centered which would give you all sorts of trouble focusing and also give lacklustre results wide open.

Hello Batdude

When my K1 would do that....I would not be here, I would not be a K1 user, or would first try to send in my K1 for a check.

Therefore, we can ask you only questions, for that it may help to find out what happens:

My question is,

AF-fine tuning:

do you use for this lens a AF-fine tuning, but for an other one a global AF fine tuning ?

and a tip: when I took too much pictures of one scene with different settings (for example in AF test pictures)...and I do not remember my setting I had for this example (out of all the example pictures I made from the test scene) picture, I do use the ExifTool (together with the ExifToolGUI)...

To AF-C SEL 9:

You can find out by yourself, if the camera did use an other point as the center one.

Use ExifTools and use a RAW file:

a example from my picture files:



and further info's



If your camera used the center AF in this SEL 9 field, AFPointsSpecial is set, the center AF (Nr. 19...the center number in AFPointsSelected) is also the AFPointsInFocus.

when your camera did use an other point as the center one:



AFPointsSpecial is not set, the center AF (Nr. 17...the center number in AFPointsSelected) is not the AFPointsInFocus. here it's No. 18.

A JPG file show nothing of this via this program, because the info's are not in the file.

For example your second picture has only this info do to be a JPG file:



In your second picture, I for example, really believe that you did not noticed that after your first AF confirmation (which should always be the center AF point of this 9 point area in AF-C), the camera did changed to a right AF point in this field (and remember, you get no red illumination confirmation than). When you lay a grid over this picture, your center AF point is already close to leave the vase meanwhile a right AF point look exactly on the object, you write it is in focus.

I, for example, did post here:


a example, where after the first AF confirmation my AF-C SEL 9 points did slide away from my center AF point to an other AF point. It happens in the last picture of my post. OK, I did noticed it and btw, the focus point is exact there, where the used focus point was.

BTW: why do you still work with spot metering, +3 EV and the manual mode ???

Is the manual mode not unpractical here (you always must change the ISO by hand)? and with such a EV setting, where do you meter on with the spot metering? Done also by AE-L use?

I would use TAv. That is much faster.

best regards KPM2

Hi Batdude,

sorry to see you are having such AF problems. I do not own the K-1, but had a K10D, K-50 and recently I adopted the brilliant KP.

Despite I am not a first class photographer, I will add some of my experience with Pentax AF, as I have made many experiments with it. Hopefully will be of use to you.

Firstly about the body-lens harmony.

My first SLR was the K10D. Good image quality, but taught me very properly that there is no way you can just put a new lens on the body and go shooting Every lens had to be microadjusted for the body. (with K10D you had to "hack" into the Debug menu) Primes were fine, 35/2.4 and 50/1.8 had both the same correction. However I had some troubles with 50-135/2.8. Up to approx. 100mm the adjustments needed were reasonably consistent to make one average adjustment to make the lens focus properly. However, anything longer than 100mm needed different adjustment. This was hopeless. Either choose the focal length you want and make the adjustments for it, or send it to Pentax service for calibration (many guys did it and were OK). Well, I upgraded to K-50 instead

With the K-50 things were instantly much easier all in all. Primes worked fine and the 50-135 reasonably as well. When I switched to 60-250 however, I had to fiddle with the microadjustment too to find out, what setting would be best. I ended up with -3 microadjustment which I found out to be the best. FA 77 limited worked on K-50 OK. But Sigmas were a completely different story. I bought 17-50/2.8 and initially it was terrible. Backfocussing and fronfocussing almost randomly at both different focal lengths and focusing distances. AF microadjustment unusable. The same appeared later with the Sigma 30/1.4 Art and Sigma 70-200/2.8. I sent them with the body to Sigma service for calibration. When back home, I tested it properly and they were always dead on. Especially the 17-50 was amazing (I sold it recently as I do not like zooming that much) - always precise. Now when I bought the KP, it went to Sigma service with the Sigmas to make them focus precisely because they were almost unusable with the new body. Which I had expected. I am pretty sure that when they come back home, they will work like a charm with the KP.

I did also some testing with the KP and DA* 60-250. I tried some dog-running towards the camera with AF-C. I was shooting at f/5.6 and all of the shots were backfocussed. Because of the ever-present "Pentax AF s.cks", one would automatically blame the system. But with my frustrating experience expecially with the K10D, I did not And as I found out with some static shots, the 60-250 will surely need some microadjustment to make it not backfocus. Good thing is that Pentax lenses, as I have found out, tend to backfocus or frontfocus rather consistently (unlike the Sigmas), so microadjustment usually works.

Once you focus on something, that simply must be in focus (big enough, distinct enough, contrasty enough, in good light) and it is not and this happens repeatedly, you bet the lens needs either microadjustment (in body) or calibration (service).

The other thing I have found out is special with Pentax is that you have to learn its AF. Some systems may be more forgiving about not knowing their AF system, but Pentax is not one of them. Once I sorted out a few issues with its behaviour , I rapidly increased my keeper rate. There are my findings:

- Get to know the real size of the AF points. Take a white paper, draw a black dot on it and set the camera to AF-C mode. Select one focusing point and start focusing on the plain white. It will not focus, of course, but keep moving slowly towards the dot and once it manage to focus on the dot, you will know the edge of the real AF point. Make this in many directions to find out the real size properly. And also try selecting different AF points.

- Get used to the real size ot the AF points. (this is e.g. neccessary more for 30/1.4 Art than for 77 ltd, but still both the lenses need this attitude). This is a must. Once you want to focus on something, make sure your whole AF point is placed only on what you want to focus on. Otherwise you have a great chance of some edge of the AF point catch something in the background (like a tree) of foreground (like a top of a bottle in front of the person you want to take photo of).

- Make sure you focus on something contrasty. You will experience much worse keeper rate when you keep trying to focus on something in dark shadow when everything else is sunlit for example.

- When you really want your shot, make of coure several ones with refocussing (applicable for every system).

Once you sort it all out, your keeper rate will be very good.

mike

Hi Batdude

My explanation is much simpler than others here. I have suffered the same way myself losing faith in my camera so perceiving a problem to be worse than it is.

I honestly believe that in the second of these photos for example, you and the camera actually largely succeeded but you have lost faith so you see a problem where it barely exists.

The big vase closest to the camera has a glossy surface with little detail. So it looks misfocussed when it actually isn't.

Look at the gravel on the ground. This fine detail is much better for assessing the focussing distance the camera chose. The sharpest-looking gravel is only a little further away than the big vase.

I think looking at all the shots (especially the first three) you have a little back-focus with this lens but not much. It could be adjusted away.

Hope that cheers you up.

Paul

I've looked at several shots under the loupe and the upper right quadrant doesn't look good to me. Decentering? I'd send in the body and lens for repair and I would calibrate the camera's AF when it comes back regardless of what the repair facility says. It's not hard to do and there are many cheat sheets about it on the net.

AF is not infallible and it is very important to choose focus points with care, imho.

--
==================
https://www.flickr.com/photos/petreluk/

Dear Batdude,

you always have complains about AF of K1. Many people have these problems and so I do believe it's a problem for people who need the AF system (I rarely use it at all).

But now my question: The K1 is a FF camera and I have heart that people using FF cameras from other companies sometimes have problems with the AF system, too.

Thus, if you compare the AF performance of your K1 with let's say Nikon or Canon: Do you compare the FF models of these brands with K1 or APS-C models?

With FF DOF is smaller (especially if your lens has a big initial aperture). There are advantages of APS-C over FF nobody talks about. But I like FF as my target is maximum IQ.

Best regards

Holger

Hello

This are the numbers for the AF points, I think ExifTool use:







best regards KPM2

Hello Batdude

That's what I mean:



Your center AF point (No 17, when you used AF-C with SEL 9 point and center cluster) is short before it lost the vase...did the AF jump to No 18 therefore, .... instead to stay on the vase via No 16 or No 24 ? The big problem for the camera is here that the pattern under AF point No18 is also blue/green and probably very similar....and made it for the camera on that way very alluring to change to this AF point No 18.

BTW: the AF points are only ca. matched to the scene...on the other hand...not so badly, I think :-D

best regards KPM2