Interested in Sony Alpha Extended Series ?

Interested in Sony Alpha Extended Series ?


  • Total voters
    0
I see a great Cost/Benefit ratio here. Versatility and higher Quality, its a more efficient way to get what lenses can produce.
Panasonic did bother to do it with their GH5S as well as my LX100. From personal experience I can tell you that the benefits are worth it.
GH5s is highly specialized and very expensive for a small-sensor camera and it's sensor is otherwise much less capable than the one in it's sibling so there were significant drawbacks, and LX100's sensor, though used in different way is bog standard so it benefits from economy of scale unlike what you're proposing here.

Neither of those supports your argument that it could be done cost effectively. Quite the opposite, I'd say.
Canon brought to market the Powershot G1X II featuring an in-house odd 1.5" Type sensor.
It is a safe assumption that the market for that camera was a fraction the size of a mid to high end Sony ILC would be.

Another real world example, the Sigma Quattro H uses an exclusive Sigma Foveon APS-H sensor and that camera is currently selling for $1,200

I'm pretty sure production cost wouldn't be an issue.
 
Last edited:
Another real world example, the Sigma Quattro H uses an exclusive Sigma Foveon APS-H sensor and that camera is currently selling for $1,200
The Quattro H is a great example actually, because it has an APS-C counterpart available for $800 and the only difference is the sensor.

So that's $400 more, 4x higher than your estimate.
 
Yeah, then we can all go out and buy round TV's and monitors and picture frames.

Start a whole round format movement.

Square is square!
 
Who decided that pictures have to be rectangles. Why don't we just keep the whole image circle? :D :D
Eventually when sensor production cost is low enough we will have 100% image circle coverage but not so much to generate round pictures but enable the photographer to change from Landscape to Portrait without changing ergonomics.

Also, a round sensor would allow the camera to automatically adjust and correct for perfectly straight Horizons with the help of the built-in gyroscope without messing with a tripod or dealing with an annoying electronic level.

Granted it would be a evolutionary process until we get to 100% IC utilization, as sensor production cost comes down.
 
Who decided that pictures have to be rectangles. Why don't we just keep the whole image circle? :D :D
The images made with the original Kodak No. 1 Camera were round. One advantage with a round image is no worries about keeping the horizon level when taking the picture. Also, no need to turn the camera for portraits.

I'd be fine with a full image circle and cropping to whatever format I want.
 
Last edited:
Another real world example, the Sigma Quattro H uses an exclusive Sigma Foveon APS-H sensor and that camera is currently selling for $1,200
The Quattro H is a great example actually, because it has an APS-C counterpart available for $800 and the only difference is the sensor.

So that's $400 more, 4x higher than your estimate.
The A6500 is selling no problem at a higher price than the Quattro H even though is using a smaller sensor. The price differences are sometimes more about what margins manufacturers can get away with, not the actual production cost.
 
I have not seen any evidence that sensor fabrication has made any gains in efficiency in the past several years. It is possible that until some new technology emerges they are being produced about as efficiently as possible.

That being said an a7II cost less that what Olympus sells their 4/3 system for -so sensor costs is only a small part.

Probably the most significant factor that sony will not make a slightly larger sensor is IBIS which requires the image circle to be larger than the sensor which has to move around. There is also vignetting and other optical issues at the very edge of the image circle.

I do agree that as long as cost is not a big factor there would be some advantages to going round just for the sake of the convenience of not having to rotate ones camera and reducing cropping needed to rotate.

But it would increase the pixel count to around 40mp and I would just as soon see the price of an a7RIII drop by 2000 bucks and have all the pixels located where I am most likely to use them.
 
One disadvantage is that lens hoods with petals will suddenly cause vignetting. ouch.

But it is a possibility. OTOH with the Panasonic cameras I always think 'I cannot use the full sensor, let's not buy that camera'. And once the full sensor area is made available there will be complaints about terrible vignetting and soft extreme corners.

No, I do not think it is a good idea.
 
One disadvantage is that lens hoods with petals will suddenly cause vignetting. ouch.
Not an issue, you can simply replace that piece of plastic with a circular hood from eBay for less than $10
But it is a possibility. OTOH with the Panasonic cameras I always think 'I cannot use the full sensor, let's not buy that camera'. And once the full sensor area is made available there will be complaints about terrible vignetting and soft extreme corners.
A rectangular crop from the image circle would have minimum vignetting since you are getting to the edge of the lens with 4 corners. Only 4 pixels will reach the edge.
Besides, if you are so concerned with vignetting and hoods just get a Full Frame lens, problem solved.
No, I do not think it is a good idea.
Not a good idea for you, but it is for me and many other potential buyers, like people voting YES on this poll above.

I like the market to have options and let the people decide.
 
Last edited:
A rectangular crop from the image circle would have minimum vignetting since you are getting to the edge of the lens with 4 corners. Only 4 pixels will reach the edge.
Besides, if you are so concerned with vignetting and hoods just get a Full Frame lens, problem solved.
There is an image circle. There are multiple rectangles inside this circle, each with the corners touching the edge of the defined image circle.

Let's say it is 6000x4000 pixel, 24 MP chip. To allow a square aspect radio with the same image circle, the chip would offer a second mode: 5099x5099 pixels.

So, now we have a 35 megapixel sensor. And we would be getting 24 megapixel (3:2) and 26 megapixel images. People will complain 'it is a waste of that sensor'. And when they use the full sensor they will complain about the corners (which are 500 pixels in size).

Lenses that do not fully cover a sensor are frowned upon (for no good reason actually). Just as lenses that have electronic distortion correction. Or electronic vignetting correction.

And if you are concerned with using the full image circle of an APS-C lens, just get a full frame camera, perhaps? There is always going to a a mismatch between rectangular images and round image circles.
 
A rectangular crop from the image circle would have minimum vignetting since you are getting to the edge of the lens with 4 corners. Only 4 pixels will reach the edge.
Besides, if you are so concerned with vignetting and hoods just get a Full Frame lens, problem solved.
There is an image circle. There are multiple rectangles inside this circle, each with the corners touching the edge of the defined image circle.

Let's say it is 6000x4000 pixel, 24 MP chip. To allow a square aspect radio with the same image circle, the chip would offer a second mode: 5099x5099 pixels.

So, now we have a 35 megapixel sensor. And we would be getting 24 megapixel (3:2) and 26 megapixel images. People will complain 'it is a waste of that sensor'. And when they use the full sensor they will complain about the corners (which are 500 pixels in size).

Lenses that do not fully cover a sensor are frowned upon (for no good reason actually). Just as lenses that have electronic distortion correction. Or electronic vignetting correction.

And if you are concerned with using the full image circle of an APS-C lens, just get a full frame camera, perhaps? There is always going to a a mismatch between rectangular images and round image circles.
There are tangible benefits to be have by enlarging the sensor, which I've listed and explained in many posts above.
This is not an abstract exercise of "matching" a rectangle within a circle.
For instance, by just expanding a couple of millimeters the sensor in a Smartphone you could cover 100% the image circle.
One of the benefits is that users could simple take shots carelessly that are always horizon leveled no matter how you orient your phone. they don't have to know what is going on under the hood about sensors or lens image circle. People would simply be glad to have that convenience.
 
Last edited:
I have not seen any evidence that sensor fabrication has made any gains in efficiency in the past several years. It is possible that until some new technology emerges they are being produced about as efficiently as possible.

That being said an a7II cost less that what Olympus sells their 4/3 system for -so sensor costs is only a small part.
Which supports the viability of enlarging the APS-C sensor for gains in quality, versatility and convenience. A good set of Cost/Benefit ratio.
Probably the most significant factor that sony will not make a slightly larger sensor is IBIS which requires the image circle to be larger than the sensor which has to move around. There is also vignetting and other optical issues at the very edge of the image circle.
It is actually the opposite. For IBIS a larger sensor has a greater degree of motion within the image circle which translate in better motion cancelation.
I do agree that as long as cost is not a big factor there would be some advantages to going round just for the sake of the convenience of not having to rotate ones camera and reducing cropping needed to rotate.
And automatic horizon leveling.
But it would increase the pixel count to around 40mp and I would just as soon see the price of an a7RIII drop by 2000 bucks and have all the pixels located where I am most likely to use them.
Well, this approach is not limited to APS-C and could be used with FF too.
Slightly enlarged FF sensor would provide the same benefits such lossless aspect ratios, wider angles in 16:9, and automatic horizon leveling when using 3:2.
If I was a serious landscape photographer I'd definitely prefer a FF body with Extended sensor than a traditional one.

The increased sensor area could also be used with normal FF lenses if you don't mind slight rounded corners, which in many cases is not a big deal.
The new iPhone has a screen with rounded corners.
 
Last edited:
Which supports the viability of enlarging the APS-C sensor for gains in quality, versatility and convenience. A good set of Cost/Benefit ratio.
Not really. It suggests that other cost are probably more important like development and also price is a function of sales volume.

This is a camera that would probably only appeal to a small number of enthusiasts. In that market they would also probably include all the other bells and whistles that group wants and would end up with a $2500 camera that very few would buy since you can get a full frame A7RIII for not much more.
It is actually the opposite. For IBIS a larger sensor has a greater degree of motion within the image circle which translate in better motion cancelation.
I think your understanding of physics needs work. A sensor that is the exact size of the image circle has exactly zero room to move without moving out of the image circle

Of course your proposed chip has area that is not even in the image circle so by that standard you could use any size sensor and just waste some percentage of it.

However that does not make a lot of since and it would be better just to build a round sensor that was small enough to fit within the image circle with room to move.
Well, this approach is not limited to APS-C and could be used with FF too.
Slightly enlarged FF sensor would provide the same benefits such lossless aspect ratios, wider angles in 16:9, and automatic horizon leveling when using 3:2.
If I was a serious landscape photographer I'd definitely prefer a FF body with Extended sensor than a traditional one.
But since very few actually do show that they are willing to pay more and or use technology which creates more pixels the theory is not supported by reality.

In other words if people really cared about how many pixels they have then the 5DS or Phaseone XF100MP would be the best selling cameras and no one would use crop sensors.

Your premise is based on Sony being able to develop an entirely new camera and charging a $100 premium -that is not likely to happen. It is also based on the assumption that these camera companies really do not consider their options or know what anything cost or what consumers want.

That is very naive.

Your poll also does not really mean much because if you had asked how many people would be interested in buying a A7RIII if the price was dropped by $2000 you would get a lot of people who say yes.

In fact using an A7RIII with a crop lens essentially does what your are describing.

--
-Chris
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cspics/albums
 
Last edited:
There are tangible benefits to be have by enlarging the sensor, which I've listed and explained in many posts above.
This is not an abstract exercise of "matching" a rectangle within a circle.
You've predicted that this is going to happen. But it seems to me that when film ILCs were (almost all) designed for 35mm, camera manufacturers settled on 1.5X or 1.6X crop APS-C sensors as a new standard for DSLRs (when sensors were new and expensive) then designed lines of lenses for those sensor sizes ... and now they're supposed to move to slightly bigger sensors to squeak a little more benefit out of those lenses when cropped to other aspect ratios (and to benefit users of FF lenses, thus discouraging them from upgrading to FF bodies) ?

It's an interesting exercise in maximizing potential, but nothing that's likely to happen IMO. Panasonic has a compact (LX100 ?) that makes use of a "standard" 4/3 sensor and then crops smaller.
For instance, by just expanding a couple of millimeters the sensor in a Smartphone you could cover 100% the image circle.
At a higher cost for little perceived benefit. If it costs $1 more per phone, that's millions of dollars ... is it going to net them millions of dollars more in profit ?
 
There are tangible benefits to be have by enlarging the sensor, which I've listed and explained in many posts above.
This is not an abstract exercise of "matching" a rectangle within a circle.
You've predicted that this is going to happen. But it seems to me that when film ILCs were (almost all) designed for 35mm, camera manufacturers settled on 1.5X or 1.6X crop APS-C sensors as a new standard for DSLRs (when sensors were new and expensive) then designed lines of lenses for those sensor sizes ... and now they're supposed to move to slightly bigger sensors to squeak a little more benefit out of those lenses when cropped to other aspect ratios (and to benefit users of FF lenses, thus discouraging them from upgrading to FF bodies) ?
Nothing is stopping Sony from applying the same sensor expansion to FF. This would keep the gap from APS-C to the same level as it is now.
It's an interesting exercise in maximizing potential, but nothing that's likely to happen IMO. Panasonic has a compact (LX100 ?) that makes use of a "standard" 4/3 sensor and then crops smaller.
Yep, I own one and I love that feature.
For instance, by just expanding a couple of millimeters the sensor in a Smartphone you could cover 100% the image circle.
At a higher cost for little perceived benefit. If it costs $1 more per phone, that's millions of dollars ... is it going to net them millions of dollars more in profit ?
Electronic Device manufacturers have to, as a matter of survival make constant improvements in their product to justify consumers upgrading their devices.
This is just one aspect of digital cameras and even Smartphones that have yet to be exploited.
It probably will happen first with Smartphones since the cost of increasing the already tiny sensor is marginal, the always leveled horizon, regardless of Phone orientation is one of those features many people can benefit from but that would require full image circle coverage.
It will happen I just can't tell you when. the technology is available and the cost is negligible.
 
Last edited:
Which supports the viability of enlarging the APS-C sensor for gains in quality, versatility and convenience. A good set of Cost/Benefit ratio.
Not really. It suggests that other cost are probably more important like development and also price is a function of sales volume.

This is a camera that would probably only appeal to a small number of enthusiasts. In that market they would also probably include all the other bells and whistles that group wants and would end up with a $2500 camera that very few would buy since you can get a full frame A7RIII for not much more.
It is actually the opposite. For IBIS a larger sensor has a greater degree of motion within the image circle which translate in better motion cancelation.
I think your understanding of physics needs work. A sensor that is the exact size of the image circle has exactly zero room to move without moving out of the image circle

Of course your proposed chip has area that is not even in the image circle so by that standard you could use any size sensor and just waste some percentage of it.

However that does not make a lot of since and it would be better just to build a round sensor that was small enough to fit within the image circle with room to move.
Well, this approach is not limited to APS-C and could be used with FF too.
Slightly enlarged FF sensor would provide the same benefits such lossless aspect ratios, wider angles in 16:9, and automatic horizon leveling when using 3:2.
If I was a serious landscape photographer I'd definitely prefer a FF body with Extended sensor than a traditional one.
But since very few actually do show that they are willing to pay more and or use technology which creates more pixels the theory is not supported by reality.

In other words if people really cared about how many pixels they have then the 5DS or Phaseone XF100MP would be the best selling cameras and no one would use crop sensors.
No because that really requires a different set of lenses and the cost is much higher than crop cameras.
Your premise is based on Sony being able to develop an entirely new camera and charging a $100 premium -that is not likely to happen. It is also based on the assumption that these camera companies really do not consider their options or know what anything cost or what consumers want.
This is not an entirely new camera. Is just a more efficient and flexible camera design. Another step in the evolution of cameras, that is all. Unless you want to get stuck in the present.
That is very naive.

Your poll also does not really mean much because if you had asked how many people would be interested in buying a A7RIII if the price was dropped by $2000 you would get a lot of people who say yes.

In fact using an A7RIII with a crop lens essentially does what your are describing.
Not at all, the sensor size difference is significant enough to belong to different categories.
The gap between crop and full could be maintained by applying the same extension to FF sensors.
 
In other words if people really cared about how many pixels they have then the 5DS or Phaseone XF100MP would be the best selling cameras and no one would use crop sensors.
No because that really requires a different set of lenses and the cost is much higher than crop cameras.
Your premise is based on Sony being able to develop an entirely new camera and charging a $100 premium -that is not likely to happen. It is also based on the assumption that these camera companies really do not consider their options or know what anything cost or what consumers want.
This is not an entirely new camera. Is just a more efficient and flexible camera design. Another step in the evolution of cameras, that is all. Unless you want to get stuck in the present.
That is very naive.

Your poll also does not really mean much because if you had asked how many people would be interested in buying a A7RIII if the price was dropped by $2000 you would get a lot of people who say yes.

In fact using an A7RIII with a crop lens essentially does what your are describing.
Not at all, the sensor size difference is significant enough to belong to different categories.
The gap between crop and full could be maintained by applying the same extension to FF sensors.
It is not an extra cost for anyone who already owns an a7r. They could actually save money by purchasing crop lenses -this would give them the same effect you are describing. But they do not do that because there is no photographic advantage.

Anyway, -we do mostly view our photos on 16:9 screens these days so there is some practical use for moving to that format. And yeah, if it is all the same cost then just make a sensor as big as the image circle allows.

But then we will be either forced to choose a format in camera or crop every single photo in post and I do not see that as an improvement. 16:9 would give us a couple hundred more pixels in width but less in height. -I do see the advantage in a camera like the GH5S that is primarily a video camera and stills are secondary.

I suppose you could also adapt 4/3 lenses and get the same effect. We are already using more pixels than can be displayed on a 4k screen

 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top