Evidence of NR in GR2 RAW file.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 12, 2018

I don't expect anyone but me to be the slightest bit interested in this subject, but I have been looking at the GR2 RAW files. I like noise and I like unprocessed noise (whatever that is).

The GRD and the GRX100 are great, but I know at some point I will need to think about moving to a larger (yawn) sensor and worst still a CMOS sensor (the horror). So, what can I do about the smooth look of the GR2's CMOS images?

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. Here's the results. The best way to spot NR and where is being aplied is to look at the RGB channels in the RAW file. Here are the R, G and B channels at 100% magnification. This RAW image file is from dpreview's samples and is ISO 6400.

Look at the RED channel. Unlike the G and the B it looks smudged.

Blue:

Green:

Red:

--
'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
Tungsten Nordstein, 1999

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 12, 2018

Just to show that all hope is not lost (if I move to a GR), I processed the same image in Lightroom and liked what I saw. This image is only 6400 so better things might emerge at higher ISO settings.

No noise was added. No noise was harmed in the manufacture of these images. Just some channel mixing and image adjustment.

--
'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
Tungsten Nordstein, 1999

teemodk · Feb 13, 2018

I find it interesting. Noise is an element in making "artistic" pictures. Some like it, some don't.

Now what I would like to see is examples of the "gritty" pictures you and everyone are talking about. I'm not sure I have the right understanding. Flickr links etc is fine, doesn't have to be your own.

Some of the bw pictures reminds me of pictures I have from a cheap plastic camera from the mid seventies. I like it a lot, but that may just be for nostalgic reasons.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 13, 2018

teemodk said:
I find it interesting. Noise is an element in making "artistic" pictures. Some like it, some don't.

Now what I would like to see is examples of the "gritty" pictures you and everyone are talking about. I'm not sure I have the right understanding. Flickr links etc is fine, doesn't have to be your own.

Some of the bw pictures reminds me of pictures I have from a cheap plastic camera from the mid seventies. I like it a lot, but that may just be for nostalgic reasons.

For me noise is an element in making the surface of the photo visible. Not really 'art' or nostalgia, but that's just me.

I'll post some new ones later...

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 13, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein said:
I don't expect anyone but me to be the slightest bit interested in this subject, but I have been looking at the GR2 RAW files. I like noise and I like unprocessed noise (whatever that is).

The GRD and the GRX100 are great, but I know at some point I will need to think about moving to a larger (yawn) sensor and worst still a CMOS sensor (the horror). So, what can I do about the smooth look of the GR2's CMOS images?

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. Here's the results. The best way to spot NR and where is being aplied is to look at the RGB channels in the RAW file. Here are the R, G and B channels at 100% magnification. This RAW image file is from dpreview's samples and is ISO 6400.

Look at the RED channel. Unlike the G and the B it looks smudged.

Blue:

Green:

Red:

--
'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
Tungsten Nordstein, 1999

I think I've got this (my interpretation) all wrong.

Looking at the RAW channels in Raw Therapy, I'm now thinking that the NR is applied by Adobe RAW Converter itself – opaque to the user.

--
'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
Tungsten Nordstein, 1999

LaMeule · Feb 13, 2018

teemodk said:
I find it interesting. Noise is an element in making "artistic" pictures. Some like it, some don't.

Now what I would like to see is examples of the "gritty" pictures you and everyone are talking about. I'm not sure I have the right understanding. Flickr links etc is fine, doesn't have to be your own.

Some of the bw pictures reminds me of pictures I have from a cheap plastic camera from the mid seventies. I like it a lot, but that may just be for nostalgic reasons.

Here are 4 photos, no NR applied though, but the gritty look is there! (from Bangkok streets with a GR, not the GRII):

No "film grain" added, just some post treatment via Silver Efex Pro

Rgds,

PM

Joe Pineapples II · Feb 13, 2018

If you contact Bill Claff (user bclaff) he has done extensive testing on camera sensor noise performance, including looking at this very issue via a clever mathematical technique.

J.

tinternaut · Feb 13, 2018

More than a purist might want...

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 13, 2018

Joe Pineapples II said:
If you contact Bill Claff (user bclaff) he has done extensive testing on camera sensor noise performance, including looking at this very issue via a clever mathematical technique.

J.

Thanks Joe, I will look him up to see what he has to say on the subject.

bclaff · Feb 13, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein said:
...

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. ...

Relatively easy to detect with 2D Fourier Transforms. I have almost no Ricoh measurements. If someone is willing to provide the required raw files then I would know for sure.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 13, 2018

bclaff said:
Tungsten Nordstein said:

...

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. ...

Click to expand...

Relatively easy to detect with 2D Fourier Transforms. I have almost no Ricoh measurements. If someone is willing to provide the required raw files then I would know for sure.

bclaff · Feb 13, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein said:
bclaff said:

Tungsten Nordstein said:

...

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. ...

Click to expand...

Relatively easy to detect with 2D Fourier Transforms. I have almost no Ricoh measurements. If someone is willing to provide the required raw files then I would know for sure.

Click to expand...

Hi Bill, thank-you for joining in. I've already started to doubt my assetion that there is NR in the RAW of the GR2, but it would be good to know what you can find.

Here is the dpreview sample at ISO 6400 from the GR2

RAW (17.9MB)

Another one that would be interesting to find out about would be the GRD4 RAW. But unfortunately dpreview do not have links to the high ISO RAW files for this camera, so I'd have to dig some out and uploaded them later in the week.

I'd love to find out how you apply the 2D Fourier Transform and read the results.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The technique requires specific files. Generally I start with black frames since the firmware will apply Noise Reduction (NR), if any, even to them.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 14, 2018

bclaff said:
Tungsten Nordstein said:

bclaff said:

Tungsten Nordstein said:

...

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. ...

Click to expand...

Relatively easy to detect with 2D Fourier Transforms. I have almost no Ricoh measurements. If someone is willing to provide the required raw files then I would know for sure.

Click to expand...

Hi Bill, thank-you for joining in. I've already started to doubt my assetion that there is NR in the RAW of the GR2, but it would be good to know what you can find.

Here is the dpreview sample at ISO 6400 from the GR2

RAW (17.9MB)

Another one that would be interesting to find out about would be the GRD4 RAW. But unfortunately dpreview do not have links to the high ISO RAW files for this camera, so I'd have to dig some out and uploaded them later in the week.

I'd love to find out how you apply the 2D Fourier Transform and read the results.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The technique requires specific files. Generally I start with black frames since the firmware will apply Noise Reduction (NR), if any, even to them.

Olifaunt · Feb 14, 2018

I don't know if this is relevant, but Capture One gets really confused by red channel noise in Ricoh files. C1 is unable to remove red noise from GR raws without destroying red detail, something the Ricoh firmware does easily and mostly correctly in OOC jpegs even with camera NR turned off.

Olifaunt · Feb 14, 2018

Also, this thread https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60201905 shows some images of something else funny going on the red channel in RAW files. It becomes obvious when dodging low light RAW files, where you can get circular rings of red.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 14, 2018

Olifaunt said:
I don't know if this is relevant, but Capture One gets really confused by red channel noise in Ricoh files. C1 is unable to remove red noise from GR raws without destroying red detail, something the Ricoh firmware does easily and mostly correctly in OOC jpegs even with camera NR turned off.

That's interesting. Might be. What's Capture One. Is it free?

I have been using RAW Therapee with different de-mosaicing algorithms. I'm not sure how to interpret what I see yet.

I need to know what de-mosaicing algorithm these propriety tools like Adobe RC use.

Olifaunt · Feb 14, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein said:
Olifaunt said:

I don't know if this is relevant, but Capture One gets really confused by red channel noise in Ricoh files. C1 is unable to remove red noise from GR raws without destroying red detail, something the Ricoh firmware does easily and mostly correctly in OOC jpegs even with camera NR turned off.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Might be. What's Capture One. Is it free?

I have been using RAW Therapee with different de-mosaicing algorithms. I'm not sure how to interpret what I see yet.

I need to know what de-mosaicing algorithm these propriety tools like Adobe RC use.

No, C1 is a commercial raw developer.

Interesting about the demosaicing. It is not something I spend a lot of thought on but I think it will definitely make a difference to the appearance of random detail or noise. For example, this wasn't noise in particular but I didn't like the way DxO Pro rendered foliage detail - at usual viewing distance it looked ok but at pixel level the detail wasn't random but weirdly rectangular (horizontal and vertical stripes).

bclaff · Feb 14, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein said:
bclaff said:

Tungsten Nordstein said:

bclaff said:

Tungsten Nordstein said:

...

Intrigued that Ricoh (and others) might be using NR on their RAW files I looked a bit closer at the GR2's RAW. ...

Click to expand...

Relatively easy to detect with 2D Fourier Transforms. I have almost no Ricoh measurements. If someone is willing to provide the required raw files then I would know for sure.

Click to expand...

Hi Bill, thank-you for joining in. I've already started to doubt my assetion that there is NR in the RAW of the GR2, but it would be good to know what you can find.

Here is the dpreview sample at ISO 6400 from the GR2

RAW (17.9MB)

Another one that would be interesting to find out about would be the GRD4 RAW. But unfortunately dpreview do not have links to the high ISO RAW files for this camera, so I'd have to dig some out and uploaded them later in the week.

I'd love to find out how you apply the 2D Fourier Transform and read the results.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The technique requires specific files. Generally I start with black frames since the firmware will apply Noise Reduction (NR), if any, even to them.

Click to expand...

Hi Bill. Ok, black frames. I'll organise within the next week, upload and send you a wetransfer link. Any other images? We are just testing DNGs?

2D Fourier Transform (2D FT) on the black frames you provided showed no Noise Reduction (NR) for the GR II.

Regards,

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 14, 2018

Olifaunt said:
Tungsten Nordstein said:

Olifaunt said:

I don't know if this is relevant, but Capture One gets really confused by red channel noise in Ricoh files. C1 is unable to remove red noise from GR raws without destroying red detail, something the Ricoh firmware does easily and mostly correctly in OOC jpegs even with camera NR turned off.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Might be. What's Capture One. Is it free?

I have been using RAW Therapee with different de-mosaicing algorithms. I'm not sure how to interpret what I see yet.

I need to know what de-mosaicing algorithm these propriety tools like Adobe RC use.

Click to expand...

No, C1 is a commercial raw developer.

Interesting about the demosaicing. It is not something I spend a lot of thought on but I think it will definitely make a difference to the appearance of random detail or noise. For example, this wasn't noise in particular but I didn't like the way DxO Pro rendered foliage detail - at usual viewing distance it looked ok but at pixel level the detail wasn't random but weirdly rectangular (horizontal and vertical stripes).

That sounds like something I saw in the GRD4. When I imported to RAW Therapee, I found I could reduce the pattern but at high ISO I seem to remember that it remained. I could never achieve the random noise pattern I liked in the GRD1. Some de-mosaicers are better than others, definitely.

Tungsten Nordstein · Feb 15, 2018

teemodk said:
Now what I would like to see is examples of the "gritty" pictures you and everyone are talking about. I'm not sure I have the right understanding. Flickr links etc is fine, doesn't have to be your own.

Don't laugh, but here's three photographs from a new series called Contains None or More of Your Five-a-Day. The first one is a crop. The others designed to be zoomed in and out of at will. These three are all shot on a GX100 switched to either full or half power.

--
'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
Tungsten Nordstein, 1999

Evidence of NR in GR2 RAW file.

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