low light: X-E3 vs. X-E2 and vs. A7/II/rII

georg f · Feb 11, 2018

i do a lot of low-light shooting, at bars or at evening barbeques. i'm a very happy X-E2 user, and my main reason for upgrade is higher low-light performance. i would highly appreciate any first-hand experiences on how big the differences really are to the X-E3 on the one side, and to the sony A7, A7 II and A7r II on the other side.

on the X-E2 my general limit of usability is ISO 1600.
(of course similar applies to the X-T and X-PRO models.)

the obvious upgrade path is to the X-E3, but the sony A7 is at a similar price point, therefore would be an option too, if the ISO performance is better. the A7 II should be similar as the A7, adding IBIS though.

the A7r II is said to be considerably better, has anybody got experience on how much it is? how much EV to X-E2 (or X-E3)?

big, big thanks for any input!

DP13Photo · Feb 11, 2018

georg f said:
i do a lot of low-light shooting, at bars or at evening barbeques. i'm a very happy X-E2 user, and my main reason for upgrade is higher low-light performance. i would highly appreciate any first-hand experiences on how big the differences really are to the X-E3 on the one side, and to the sony A7, A7 II and A7r II on the other side.

on the X-E2 my general limit of usability is ISO 1600.
(of course similar applies to the X-T and X-PRO models.)

the obvious upgrade path is to the X-E3, but the sony A7 is at a similar price point, therefore would be an option too, if the ISO performance is better. the A7 II should be similar as the A7, adding IBIS though.

the A7r II is said to be considerably better, has anybody got experience on how much it is? how much EV to X-E2 (or X-E3)?

big, big thanks for any input!

--
www.georgfiedler.at

I have had the Sony a7, going on my fifth year...sensor performance catches up though and my X-T20 is looking pretty good compared to it or even the a7 ii.... check how it does here verses other Fuji or Sony cams. a7r ii or iii are in another league and price bracket:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Select cameras from list on the right.

I do too. Here are a few recent ones:

--
Dave

Buttons252 · Feb 11, 2018

I went from an X-e1 to a Nikon D600 and it was a HUGE difference. Clean shots at ISO 12,800. Don't forget fuji overstates their ISO. Both cameras with same shutter speed / apeture to get the same exposure my Nikon D600 was 2400 when matching my Fuji at 3200.

With that said, i really missed my fuji camera. I get great results with nikon but i dont enjoy using them.

nnowak · Feb 12, 2018

To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

Bobo Hodls · Feb 12, 2018

nnowak said:
To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

Not from my experience. The A7r2 bests Fuji and Olympus. I went to Sony from m4/3 for better IQ, I later moved to Fuji for tactile reasons and for the slight edge it had over m4/3 (which is arguable since it doesn't provide IBIS).

Iuvenis · Feb 12, 2018

Bob Tullis said:
nnowak said:

To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

Click to expand...

Not from my experience. The A7r2 bests Fuji and Olympus. I went to Sony from m4/3 for better IQ, I later moved to Fuji for tactile reasons and for the slight edge it had over m4/3 (which is arguable since it doesn't provide IBIS).

--
...Bob, NYC
.
"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobtullis/
http://www.bobtullis.com
.

nnowak's point is that if you were using the a7rii at iso 12800 1/60th and f2.8, you could shoot the Olympus at f1.2 and use iso 2200 or the Fuji at iso 3200. Good as the a7rii is in low light, it's not better at iso 12800 than the Olympus at iso 2200, still less the Fuji at iso 3200:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=sony_a7rii&attr13_1=olympus_em1ii&attr13_2=fujifilm_xt2&attr13_3=sony_a6500&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=12800&attr16_1=3200&attr16_2=3200&attr16_3=3200&attr126_1=1&attr171_0=1&normalization=compare&widget=1&x=0&y=0

georg f · Feb 12, 2018

thanks for your replies!

i am well aware of the implications of lens selection, e.g. comparing shooting with the fuji 56 f1.2 and the equivalent sony 85 f1.8, which is one stop in light.

my main use would be old manual lenses, therefore some would be the same - although i will be getting a lens turbo, which again gives the fuji one stop advancement.

so all together there are many things to consider, and to draw conclusions including all the other parameters it would really great to have a stable baseline.

--
www.georgfiedler.at

Bobo Hodls · Feb 12, 2018

Iuvenis said:
Bob Tullis said:

nnowak said:

To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

Click to expand...

Not from my experience. The A7r2 bests Fuji and Olympus. I went to Sony from m4/3 for better IQ, I later moved to Fuji for tactile reasons and for the slight edge it had over m4/3 (which is arguable since it doesn't provide IBIS).

Click to expand...

georg f · Feb 13, 2018

Bobo Hodls said:
Bob Tullis wrote:.

Not from my experience. The A7r2 bests Fuji and Olympus. I went to Sony from m4/3 for better IQ, I later moved to Fuji for tactile reasons and for the slight edge it had over m4/3 (which is arguable since it doesn't provide IBIS).

georg f · Feb 13, 2018

KwhyChang said:
I have had the Sony a7, going on my fifth year...sensor performance catches up though and my X-T20 is looking pretty good compared to it or even the a7 ii.... check how it does here verses other Fuji or Sony cams. a7r ii or iii are in another league and price bracket:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Select cameras from list on the right.

georg f · Feb 13, 2018

nnowak said:
To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

actually because of exactly this I'm asking for the quantity of the difference in ISO performance. when i know how many stops difference are between those bodys, only then I can draw conclusions on the results regarding the use of the various lenses.

Iuvenis · Feb 13, 2018

georg f said:
nnowak said:

To a large degree, you choice of camera body is completely meaningless without also considering what lenses you will be using. For example, consider the Sony 35mm f2.8 FE lens on any of the full frame bodies. An Olympus OMD E-M1 II with the new 17mm f1.2 would actually be a better low light combo. A Fuji camera with the 23mm f1.4 would be even better still.

Yes, the larger full frame sensors can have a low light advantage. However, you will only reap that advantage if you are also using relatively bright lenses.

Click to expand...

actually because of exactly this I'm asking for the quantity of the difference in ISO performance. when i know how many stops difference are between those bodys, only then I can draw conclusions on the results regarding the use of the various lenses.

Bobo Hodls · Feb 13, 2018

georg f said:
georg f said:

Bob Tullis wrote:.

Not from my experience. The A7r2 bests Fuji and Olympus. I went to Sony from m4/3 for better IQ, I later moved to Fuji for tactile reasons and for the slight edge it had over m4/3 (which is arguable since it doesn't provide IBIS).

Click to expand...

georg f · Feb 14, 2018

i'm more than happy to trust you - in any quantification of difference that you state.

maybe i was not clear enough in my posts above: i would be really greatful, if someone could tell me HOW MANY STOPS of difference in (subjective) acceptable noise performance at low light use are between the fuji x-trans III sensors and the sony a7/II/rII.

one stop to the a7rII? two? five?

big, big thank you.

DP13Photo · Feb 14, 2018

georg f said:
KwhyChang said:

I have had the Sony a7, going on my fifth year...sensor performance catches up though and my X-T20 is looking pretty good compared to it or even the a7 ii.... check how it does here verses other Fuji or Sony cams. a7r ii or iii are in another league and price bracket:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Select cameras from list on the right.

--
Dave

Click to expand...

can you quantify the differences?

e.g. is the low light performance of the x-t20 within one stop of the a7? how much stops difference are to a7ii

and how many stops difference to the a7rii?

--
www.georgfiedler.at

Here you can see the differences quantified. The X-E3 isn't rated yet but the X-T20 uses the same sensor and has similar performance. If you really want to see sensor improvement you would have to step up to the a7s I/II, a7r II/ III, or a9.

4b6905f93a4b4b8e81a376666dff33d5.jpg.png

--
Dave

georg f · Feb 14, 2018

KwhyChang said:
georg f said:

can you quantify the differences?

e.g. is the low light performance of the x-t20 within one stop of the a7? how much stops difference are to a7ii

and how many stops difference to the a7rii?

--
www.georgfiedler.at

Click to expand...

Here you can see the differences quantified. The X-E3 isn't rated yet but the X-T20 uses the same sensor and has similar performance. If you really want to see sensor improvement you would have to step up to the a7s I/II, a7r II/ III, or a9.

--
Dave

big thank you for taking your time!!

this chart hints at around one stop difference in high iso performance. but what this chart does not take into account is that the difference in resolution can have quite an impact on the percieved noise in the final image. also different sensors have different qualities of noise, so on some one might accept effectively higher noise levels than on another.

this is why i would be really greatful for any first-hand reports of someone who has worked with both systems, and can state how many stops of usable difference there are, at high iso low light use.

--
www.georgfiedler.at

Iuvenis · Feb 14, 2018

In the last year I have used the em1ii, the a7rii and the xt2. I would say all behaved roughly as you would expect based on their size. The Sony at 6400 matched the XT2 at 3200 and the Olympus at 1600.

However, only the likes of dpreview and imaging resource test based on repeated consistent scenes, so I personally think you’d be better looking at those resources. I also didn’t use the older sensor Sony cameras.

The chart from photons to photos above is actually of dynamic range, which is more about exposure flexibility than outright low light performance. However, there is a correlation.

georg f · Feb 14, 2018

Iuvenis said:
In the last year I have used the em1ii, the a7rii and the xt2. I would say all behaved roughly as you would expect based on their size. The Sony at 6400 matched the XT2 at 3200 and the Olympus at 1600.

big thanks for that answer!!

so the gain for low light from the x-e3/x-t2 to the a7rII is roughly one stop, which is not that much.

also, in turn, this means that the x-e3/x-t2 perform roughly similar to the a7ii, despite the bigger-is-always better FF sensor in the latter.

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low light: X-E3 vs. X-E2 and vs. A7/II/rII

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