EM1 Mark 2 plus VL vs 6D plus Zeiss KABOOM!

And here is where people get uncomfortable with a real word comparison. The 6D is a perfectly capable FF camera
Perfectly capable when? 2013?
And yet the D750, released a year later is amazing?? Please, these directions are a waste of time.
with a comparable MP count
Why would anyone want comparable MP count if one steps up to FF is beyond me.
Erm, what is wrong with 20mp, in fact I was barely testing noise and resolution, this was a general real world experiential use case.
and is constantly brought up as an alternative on these forums.
Constantly brought up? I've been here for a few years and i don't remember reading anybody recommending the 6D as an alternative like ever.
So you have read different posts than I, or remembered different elements. Shock Horror.
As a matter of fact most m43 users would agree that the 6D is pretty junk with its mediocre mp count, inferior Canon sensor and massive lack of features.
Actually the 6D isn't junk, but I will quote you when it is next brought up.
So really unsure where you pull that out from.
A major camera companies rental division.

Thanks for the insights, it was a real slice ;)
 
And I agree with your observation about colour. The Canon does look more pleasant to me as well. And that might even be lens related as I do not recall ever thinking that my Oly produced too cold colours, although I did have that funny impression that Sigma 19mm did in fact had a tendency to be a bit colder (but not that much).
The colour bit was the one that stuck with me the most. I am going to grab my 45 f1.8 and the 42.5 f0.95 and do a quick test to see if Olympus is doing any special processing with their own lenses.
That would be interesting. Now that got me thinking a bit. I kinda doubt if there is some lens specific processing, however, some of the difference might come from the fact that metering and Auto WB on an electronic enabled lens takes into vignetting into consideration.
I first came across the idea hen someone suggested Canon uses its glass design to improve sensor performance. Of course nowadays we dont know how much lifting the sensor and processing is doing.
And actual glass might very well have an impact. I really would not be surprised if you would see different transmission curves when measuring the lenses on a spectrometer.

So when testing for that, I would look at two things. One is obviously if the images look different. But even if they look the same, what were the WB parameters chosen by the camera.
This could also be connected to that gut feeling like and dislikes photographers have for particular rendering. I know videographers are very sensitive to this type of thing.
I guess looking with your naked eye through the lens might do the trick as well, but probably only if the difference is big.

Also, I wonder if longitudinal CA can throw the auto wb off? If there is enough green or blue fringing in out of focus areas, maybe that could skew the result?
That is a very interesting suggestion!
Anyway, just a few thoughts. This topic kinda intrigued me since I noticed colour difference with the Sigma I mentioned. But I never really tried to get to the bottom of this.

--
My photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/astrotripper2000/
 
And here is where people get uncomfortable with a real word comparison. The 6D is a perfectly capable FF camera
Perfectly capable when? 2013?
And yet the D750, released a year later is amazing?? Please, these directions are a waste of time.
Oh please, acting innocent doesn't make you any more credible.

Everybody knows the Sony made D750 sensor trashes the one in 6D.
with a comparable MP count
Why would anyone want comparable MP count if one steps up to FF is beyond me.
Erm, what is wrong with 20mp, in fact I was barely testing noise and resolution, this was a general real world experiential use case.
The only saving grave of 6D is its high ISO performance, maybe you should havecompared them both at ISO3200 perhaps to show the ONLY strength of the Canon?
and is constantly brought up as an alternative on these forums.
Constantly brought up? I've been here for a few years and i don't remember reading anybody recommending the 6D as an alternative like ever.
So you have read different posts than I, or remembered different elements. Shock Horror.
As a matter of fact most m43 users would agree that the 6D is pretty junk with its mediocre mp count, inferior Canon sensor and massive lack of features.
Actually the 6D isn't junk, but I will quote you when it is next brought up.
I stood by my comment - It's pretty junk in 2018 standard. it was mediocre even back in 2013.
So really unsure where you pull that out from.
A major camera companies rental division.

Thanks for the insights, it was a real slice ;)
--
My Flickr
My Getty Images
 
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And here is where people get uncomfortable with a real word comparison. The 6D is a perfectly capable FF camera
Perfectly capable when? 2013?
And yet the D750, released a year later is amazing?? Please, these directions are a waste of time.
Oh please, acting innocent doesn't make you any more credible.

Everybody knows the Sony made D750 sensor trashes the one in 6D.
Excuse me? You brought up the date as some kind of benchmark not me. But are you suggesting not all FF references are valid? So when someone says FF is amazing, I can say not from 2013 and not Canon... and when asked for sources I will point them in your direction.
with a comparable MP count
Why would anyone want comparable MP count if one steps up to FF is beyond me.
Erm, what is wrong with 20mp, in fact I was barely testing noise and resolution, this was a general real world experiential use case.
The only saving grave of 6D is its high ISO performance, maybe you should havecompared them both at ISO3200 perhaps to show the ONLY strength of the Canon?
Boy did you not understand the point of the exercise. If the goal was comparing ISO3200 performance I can pop to the DPR comparometer here... This was an exercise to go beyond basic DPR DXO metrics to some real world use to see where some obvious strengths and weaknesses appear across formats using some interesting glass. I am not sure why you are so bent out of shape by this. Do you not understand the premise?
and is constantly brought up as an alternative on these forums.
Constantly brought up? I've been here for a few years and i don't remember reading anybody recommending the 6D as an alternative like ever.
So you have read different posts than I, or remembered different elements. Shock Horror.
As a matter of fact most m43 users would agree that the 6D is pretty junk with its mediocre mp count, inferior Canon sensor and massive lack of features.
Actually the 6D isn't junk, but I will quote you when it is next brought up.
I stoo by my comment - It's pretty junk in 2018 standard. it was mediocre even back in 2013.
It was the best Canon sensor in 2013 to date according to DXO. You know Canon, the largest image making company in the world that pretty much outsells everyone else combined including in the professional world... But sure, junk, if you say so.
So really unsure where you pull that out from.
A major camera companies rental division.

Thanks for the insights, it was a real slice ;)
--
My Flickr
My Getty Images
 
Abe, thanks for your effort to make these real life comparisons.

Some of the responses are very predictable.

We all "know" that a Bushmaster absolutely crushes a Porsche, Ferrari, Tesla, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Mercedes, etc (literally ... ).

However, the weight, cost, fuel economy and general drive-ability are less than ideal for most other uses ;-) !
 
It never occured to me to put a VL on an EM1

6f82d8439f514fd788da06d316aa663f.jpg



--
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.
 
I have been a little bored recently and decided a bit of gear headedness was in need. So I decided to rent the Canon 6D, a camera I have used from time to time professionally, and the MF Zeiss 35mm f2 and 85mm f1.4 to pit them against my EM1.2 and VL 42.5mm and 17.5mm f0.95 primes. Shock Horror!!

Canon total price approx: $3599
Olympus Total Price: $3400

Why these two in particular? Well they are both fast, off brand MF lenses with what would be considered lens character. They are a very similar price, weight, build and give or take, aperture size.

Why bother making the comparison? Well, in part it is in response to the constant "just buy a full frame camera and a fast lens" argument I read here over and over. The idea that m43rds as a format "cannot compete" against the larger cameras. Does it stand up to a real world test?

How did I make the comparison? I took my wife and kids to the ROM with both cameras and took pictures of the same thing as best I could. This is a real use scenario, while charts might stay still for a direct comparison, and equivalence might equate aperture size, neither really reflects a real use case. Museums also have a mix of natural window light and darker areas to test the system use.

Some things I learned right off the bat:

- The focus assist on the Canon was unreliable, I ended up resorting to Live View and magnify
- The tools within the EVF such as magnify were far easier to use than holding the camera at arms length and trying to focus on the screen of the Canon.
- The Canon seemed to produce better out of camera colours while viewing the back of the screen (more on this later).
- The IBIS was superb in getting shake free shots in gloomy Museum spaces.
- The Optical viewfinder looked amazing after the EVF, however images didn't look like the finder (unlike the EVF).
- Chimping was something I had left behind, and I didn't enjoy having to do it again.

I wont touch menus or ergonomics, obviously if you have smaller hands the smaller camera might feel better, beyond that I honestly believe it is all just getting used to it.

Onto some juicy pictures, I am remembering (and calculating) the VL apertures as it is not recorded in the EXIF:

Coming away from this experience there were a few things I was sure of:

1. I didn't enjoy having two cameras and it did impact the fun of the trip
2. Canon does have a very nice picture profile for skin tones
3. MF with a OVF or Live view on the screen is far harder than an EVF
4. IBIS is a real life saver in gloomy spaces which would really come into play during travel
5. Either the EM1.2 or the VL lenses tend to be very blue. I will probably do a write up on this one as well with some comparison shots.
6. The systems are much closer than many would like to admit in real world use.

That last point I think is the crux of this experiment. while 2 - ish stop of Dof difference is visible using telephoto lenses, it is much less so with wide normal lenses, and 1 stop very hard to notice as I was shooting often with a 1 stop difference with the 35mm.

So what do you think? Would you buy an entirely new system for a fast portrait lens?
My thoughts:

the lens selection for the Canon obviously makes sense to you, but it seems strange to me.

In the real world most shoot with Auto Focus lenses, and If I was looking for an 85mm /1.4 lens for portraiture with a FF Canon body I'd probably choose the Canon EF 85mm F1.4L IS USM

You might argue by saying that it was a like for like comparison, and to that I would say that in that case you should have rented a mirrorless FF camera.

Peter
 
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Nice job. I thought about the same type of thing, but I would have used the trio of new ZD f/1.2 primes on the M1.2, vs the Canon or Nikon and primes.

There's no temptation at all now to use any 35mm based systems, as they are simply no longer offering a relatively attractive balance of features/properties/value/output.
It is only you who will know better what good enough for you is. Who can ever disagree with that? :-)
 
Nice job. I thought about the same type of thing, but I would have used the trio of new ZD f/1.2 primes on the M1.2, vs the Canon or Nikon and primes.

There's no temptation at all now to use any 35mm based systems, as they are simply no longer offering a relatively attractive balance of features/properties/value/output.
It is only you who will know better what good enough for you is. Who can ever disagree with that? :-)
 
Nice job. I thought about the same type of thing, but I would have used the trio of new ZD f/1.2 primes on the M1.2, vs the Canon or Nikon and primes.

There's no temptation at all now to use any 35mm based systems, as they are simply no longer offering a relatively attractive balance of features/properties/value/output.
It is only you who will know better what good enough for you is. Who can ever disagree with that? :-)

--
- sergey
i reckon a an Oly E510 and kit lens would smoke both of them :D
No kidding! :-0

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- sergey
 
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Just curious: Did you consider (or use) the Olympus setting “WB Auto - Keep Warm Color” ? And now that I’ve asked the question, do you or anyone else here think it might have made a difference in your opinion of the renderings?

Ah...I did not notice. You were shooting jpg, right?

Thank you for your efforts with this comparison.


Jim Pilcher
Bonita Springs, Florida, USA
Life is a breeze by the sea
 
My thoughts:

the lens selection for the Canon obviously makes sense to you, but it seems strange to me.
My decision was based on the idea that I was going to compare it to some off brand MF VL primes, so I wanted some similar lenses.
In the real world most shoot with Auto Focus lenses, and If I was looking for an 85mm /1.4 lens for portraiture with a FF Canon body I'd probably choose the Canon EF 85mm F1.4L IS USM
If I had the 45mm f1.2 from olympus (or Panasonic) I probably would have chosen something like that.
You might argue by saying that it was a like for like comparison, and to that I would say that in that case you should have rented a mirrorless FF camera.
But then I would be using the Canon lenses adapted, which some might argue is less than ideal. There is always some issue with cross brand comparisons.

However my next one will probably be fuji as they are doing a "free" three day trial. So I will grab some comparable lenses with a fuji body.
 
Just curious: Did you consider (or use) the Olympus setting “WB Auto - Keep Warm Color” ? And now that I’ve asked the question, do you or anyone else here think it might have made a difference in your opinion of the renderings?
Hey James. You know, that was the first thing I set to "on" the evening before as I was getting reaquianted re-introducing myself to Canon's menus and setting up. It didn't make much of a difference, I was surprised because the Keep Warm colour does normally result in warmer images.

I will probably compare the VL 42 to the Oly 45 and the 43rds 50mm f2 macro to see if there is a major colour difference either because of WB or just the lens.

I can also do the same thing with the 17VL the 17(1.8) Oly and the 15(1.7) pana. I do want to see if the lenses are causing any major WB shifts.

I will share my results here.

Ah...I did not notice. You were shooting jpg, right?
Thank you for your efforts with this comparison.

Jim Pilcher
Bonita Springs, Florida, USA
Life is a breeze by the sea
 

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