Another 5DSr thread – landscape and nature photography

danski0224 said:

Vector12 said:

Given all that, I was curious to hear if people had much in the way of experience using the 5DSr in cold conditions over extended periods, since that is a lot when I photograph. The Sony was not ace on that front. I was also wondering if people had much confidence in the weather sealing, given some care, of course, to avoid prolonged exposure to rain. Lastly, I was curious to hear how people felt about doing black and white work with the camera. I've seen some stunning examples, but others' experience would be helpful to hear about.

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What is your definition of "cold" and "extended periods"?

I had a Canon 5DsR out in -5*F temperatures for about 40 minutes and it continued to work.

The Sigma sd Quattro (non-H) stopped working the same outing.

If I want the best results from a Canon file, the initial processing is done in Canon's DPP and then converted to a TIFF file. From that point, a virtual copy is made in Lightroom for monochrome work. Canon's DLO (digital lens optimizer) makes a noticeable difference, not available in Lightroom and the Lightroom color rendering is not the same.

It is hard to beat a Sigma Foveon sensor for monochrome.

--
Moments in Time, a work in progress.... https://www.flickr.com/gp/142423236@N08/965cs3

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ecka84 said:

Sittatunga said:

ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

I wouldn't worry about 5DsR's need for a tripod. Technically, its pixel density is just like of any 20mp crop camera (7D2/70D). So, all the 24mp APS-C chips require a tripod for "pixel sharpness" even more than the 5DsR. And somehow nobody is complaining about it. Perfection requires a tripod regardless of the cameras we use. However, most of the time, "good enough" is all I need.

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theory or personal experience?

my personal experience says that while I have never had trouble getting "pixel sharpness" using 24mp APS-C sensors, I have had that kind of issue with the 5DS, and I am not alone, the web is full of similar issues with these cameras. The pixel density may be similar between FF and APS-C high resolution sensors , but weight and ergonomics are different and they also play a part in our ability to keep a camera/lens combo steady enough to avoid motion blur. As I have stated before I believe that this is a highly subjective issue, but considering the number of people experiencing it I guess it is fair to inform a potential new user about it. My solution has been working with my shooting technique, now when I shoot with the 5DS I process shutter speed information in a different way than when I shoot with the X-T2.

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It's logic.

Can you provide any evidence or test results which would suggest that the 5DsR needs a tripod more than a 24mp crop camera? Because it may be just another supstitious folklore myth. Of course, size/weight matters and 5DsR is heavier than most APS-C cameras. Plus Canon made a special mirror vibration control mechanism for it, as well as the shutter release delay options. Because this camera was intended for those who actually care about getting the maximum detail and sharpness out of it. It's not just a 5D3 with a different sensor i it.

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It's pixel density times focal length. For a 35mm format camera I would expect to use a lens of 1.6x the focal length of the lens I would use for APS-C. For the same pixel density and shutter speed I would expect about 1.6x the camera shake at the pixel level.

The 5Ds has a better mirror mechanism and more inertia in the body but it needs it as there's about 4x the kinetic energy involved in moving the larger mirror a greater distance in the same time when you take the picture.

The original reciprocal shutter speed rule is a hangover from film days when the expected standard of sharpness was equivalent to about seven megapixels. Even forty years ago it was recognised that pictures taken with electronic flash were much sharper than those just following the reciprocal rule.

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Yes, that's the idea. The rule of thumb, not really scientific. 20mp, 30mp, 40mp and 50mp cameras all need a different multiplier.

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ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

Ken60 said:

ecka Do you own a 5DSR ?

--
Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

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No, not yet

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then come back here talking about motion blur and tripods once you've got one ;-)

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Wait. If you own the camera and you think that I'm wrong, then why don't you prove it, please. I would really appreciate that. Let's share the knowledge.

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I guess you are trolling, otherwise, just google "canon 5DS motion blur" and you will get respected websites explaining the issue and how to avoid it.

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What makes you think that I didn't read anything about it? Actually, now I think that you didn't . Because, if you did, then you'd know that I didn't say anything controversial here. I mean, yes, 5DsR needs faster shutter than 5D3. But at the same time, no, it doesn't need faster shutter speed than 20+mp crop.

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Vector12 said:

These days -20c (-5f) is the coldest I normally see, and regrettably not often. So that's good to hear. My Sigma sd Quattro H behaved oddly (it stopped working temporarily and then seemed unhappy once it got going again) in about +18f, too. I was surprised, since my DP2 Quattro has been out in -25c (-15f) for long outings and worked perfectly, provided I kept the batteries warm.

I share your experience with Sigmas and monochrome. I couldn't see replacing them. But a reasonably functional autofocus and more operational latitude in general would be nice. How do you feel about the output you get from the 5DSr also working with the Sigma?

Thank you for the processing advice. It sounds a little like working with Sigma, too! I have to imagine that DPP is a little faster than SPP, however.

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rrccad said:

ecka84 said:

Sittatunga said:

ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

I wouldn't worry about 5DsR's need for a tripod. Technically, its pixel density is just like of any 20mp crop camera (7D2/70D). So, all the 24mp APS-C chips require a tripod for "pixel sharpness" even more than the 5DsR. And somehow nobody is complaining about it. Perfection requires a tripod regardless of the cameras we use. However, most of the time, "good enough" is all I need.

Click to expand...

theory or personal experience?

my personal experience says that while I have never had trouble getting "pixel sharpness" using 24mp APS-C sensors, I have had that kind of issue with the 5DS, and I am not alone, the web is full of similar issues with these cameras. The pixel density may be similar between FF and APS-C high resolution sensors , but weight and ergonomics are different and they also play a part in our ability to keep a camera/lens combo steady enough to avoid motion blur. As I have stated before I believe that this is a highly subjective issue, but considering the number of people experiencing it I guess it is fair to inform a potential new user about it. My solution has been working with my shooting technique, now when I shoot with the 5DS I process shutter speed information in a different way than when I shoot with the X-T2.

Click to expand...

It's logic.

Can you provide any evidence or test results which would suggest that the 5DsR needs a tripod more than a 24mp crop camera? Because it may be just another supstitious folklore myth. Of course, size/weight matters and 5DsR is heavier than most APS-C cameras. Plus Canon made a special mirror vibration control mechanism for it, as well as the shutter release delay options. Because this camera was intended for those who actually care about getting the maximum detail and sharpness out of it. It's not just a 5D3 with a different sensor i it.

Click to expand...

It's pixel density times focal length. For a 35mm format camera I would expect to use a lens of 1.6x the focal length of the lens I would use for APS-C. For the same pixel density and shutter speed I would expect about 1.6x the camera shake at the pixel level.

The 5Ds has a better mirror mechanism and more inertia in the body but it needs it as there's about 4x the kinetic energy involved in moving the larger mirror a greater distance in the same time when you take the picture.

The original reciprocal shutter speed rule is a hangover from film days when the expected standard of sharpness was equivalent to about seven megapixels. Even forty years ago it was recognised that pictures taken with electronic flash were much sharper than those just following the reciprocal rule.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the idea. The rule of thumb, not really scientific. 20mp, 30mp, 40mp and 50mp cameras all need a different multiplier.

Click to expand...

depends. a 20MP APS-C would have the same multiplier as a 50MP full frame.

a 100mm lens on the 20mp aps-c will have the same handhold-ability as a 100mm lens on a 50mp sensor.

there may be a difference in the amount of mirrorslap force, but it's most likely close enough with all things being equal.

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Dr_Jon said:

rrccad said:

ecka84 said:

Sittatunga said:

ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

I wouldn't worry about 5DsR's need for a tripod. Technically, its pixel density is just like of any 20mp crop camera (7D2/70D). So, all the 24mp APS-C chips require a tripod for "pixel sharpness" even more than the 5DsR. And somehow nobody is complaining about it. Perfection requires a tripod regardless of the cameras we use. However, most of the time, "good enough" is all I need.

Click to expand...

theory or personal experience?

my personal experience says that while I have never had trouble getting "pixel sharpness" using 24mp APS-C sensors, I have had that kind of issue with the 5DS, and I am not alone, the web is full of similar issues with these cameras. The pixel density may be similar between FF and APS-C high resolution sensors , but weight and ergonomics are different and they also play a part in our ability to keep a camera/lens combo steady enough to avoid motion blur. As I have stated before I believe that this is a highly subjective issue, but considering the number of people experiencing it I guess it is fair to inform a potential new user about it. My solution has been working with my shooting technique, now when I shoot with the 5DS I process shutter speed information in a different way than when I shoot with the X-T2.

Click to expand...

It's logic.

Can you provide any evidence or test results which would suggest that the 5DsR needs a tripod more than a 24mp crop camera? Because it may be just another supstitious folklore myth. Of course, size/weight matters and 5DsR is heavier than most APS-C cameras. Plus Canon made a special mirror vibration control mechanism for it, as well as the shutter release delay options. Because this camera was intended for those who actually care about getting the maximum detail and sharpness out of it. It's not just a 5D3 with a different sensor i it.

Click to expand...

It's pixel density times focal length. For a 35mm format camera I would expect to use a lens of 1.6x the focal length of the lens I would use for APS-C. For the same pixel density and shutter speed I would expect about 1.6x the camera shake at the pixel level.

The 5Ds has a better mirror mechanism and more inertia in the body but it needs it as there's about 4x the kinetic energy involved in moving the larger mirror a greater distance in the same time when you take the picture.

The original reciprocal shutter speed rule is a hangover from film days when the expected standard of sharpness was equivalent to about seven megapixels. Even forty years ago it was recognised that pictures taken with electronic flash were much sharper than those just following the reciprocal rule.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the idea. The rule of thumb, not really scientific. 20mp, 30mp, 40mp and 50mp cameras all need a different multiplier.

Click to expand...

depends. a 20MP APS-C would have the same multiplier as a 50MP full frame.

a 100mm lens on the 20mp aps-c will have the same handhold-ability as a 100mm lens on a 50mp sensor.

there may be a difference in the amount of mirrorslap force, but it's most likely close enough with all things being equal.

Click to expand...

5Dsr is probably less mirror-slap than any APS, remember it has a motor driven mirror...

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danski0224 said:

Vector12 said:

These days -20c (-5f) is the coldest I normally see, and regrettably not often. So that's good to hear. My Sigma sd Quattro H behaved oddly (it stopped working temporarily and then seemed unhappy once it got going again) in about +18f, too. I was surprised, since my DP2 Quattro has been out in -25c (-15f) for long outings and worked perfectly, provided I kept the batteries warm.

I share your experience with Sigmas and monochrome. I couldn't see replacing them. But a reasonably functional autofocus and more operational latitude in general would be nice. How do you feel about the output you get from the 5DSr also working with the Sigma?

Thank you for the processing advice. It sounds a little like working with Sigma, too! I have to imagine that DPP is a little faster than SPP, however.

Click to expand...

I have had one instance when my cold sdQ generated files that were exceptionally noisy. I haven't been able to repeat it.

When mine stopped, I got a white rear lcd screen with curvy purple lines. Once warmed up, all was fine. I emailed Sigma about it, and was told it was normal for that to happen in extreme conditions.

I suppose that the electronic parts in modern AF lenses could also fail more readily in cold conditions.

So far, the monochrome output from the 5DsR looks fine.

Not the same as Foveon, but not bad, either. many on the Sigma forum here poo poo the Quattro sensor, but it sure seems to provide excellent results to my eyes.

The argument can be made that the Canon is more usable over a wider range than any digital Sigma camera, and the sdQ/H only focuses well with Global Vision lenses and the Canon will focus with any EF mount lens.

Over on the Sigma forum here, the sdQH was compared favorably to the Canon 5DsR for apparent resolution/detail. I do not have the H, but I would say that the sdQ is right there.

Foveon files should be able to be printed larger because of much sharper edge detail compared to a Bayer pattern sensor, at least without pixel shift.

The sdQ/H also has SFD mode which works really well when it can be used.

Under good conditions and little/no subject movement, I prefer the Sigma EVF.

I hope that Canon releases something like a 5DsR in a 1D body (1DsIV) because I like the 1D viewfinder better.

Canon's DPP isn't much faster than Sigma's SPP when DPP is crunching 50 mp files.

I run either TIFF file through Neat Image to reduce noise.

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Vector12 said:

Thanks for this. It is good to hear another Sigma user's perspective. I appreciate your taking the time to save a bit more.

I've found found SFD mode surprisingly (to me) useful. I don't photograph many interiors, but I've really pleasing results when I have. I've also had some good luck with sunsets and cloudless skies, too.

I don't have an emotional stake in the Merrill/Quattro discussions – I've used both quite extensively and happily. But in my own experience, I much prefer Quattro sensors for colour and prefer them slightly, but still meaningfully, for black and white photography. However, this is clearly a matter of personal taste.

Part of my potential interest in the 5DSr is that it seems possible to get output with some of the positive qualities that I've had from my DP2Q and SDQH in terms of detail, but with more possibilities for photographing at somewhat higher ISOs and with better AF. My recent negative experiences with the SDQH in the cold have also meant that I don't feel I can rely on it for winter photography.

Thank you for the processing information. Since I live happily enough with SPP, I suppose I can live happily enough with DPP and 50mp files. I'm not a high volume photographer for the most part.

I have a lot to think about now.

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danski0224 said:

Vector12 said:

Thanks for this. It is good to hear another Sigma user's perspective. I appreciate your taking the time to save a bit more.

I've found found SFD mode surprisingly (to me) useful. I don't photograph many interiors, but I've really pleasing results when I have. I've also had some good luck with sunsets and cloudless skies, too.

I don't have an emotional stake in the Merrill/Quattro discussions – I've used both quite extensively and happily. But in my own experience, I much prefer Quattro sensors for colour and prefer them slightly, but still meaningfully, for black and white photography. However, this is clearly a matter of personal taste.

Part of my potential interest in the 5DSr is that it seems possible to get output with some of the positive qualities that I've had from my DP2Q and SDQH in terms of detail, but with more possibilities for photographing at somewhat higher ISOs and with better AF. My recent negative experiences with the SDQH in the cold have also meant that I don't feel I can rely on it for winter photography.

Thank you for the processing information. Since I live happily enough with SPP, I suppose I can live happily enough with DPP and 50mp files. I'm not a high volume photographer for the most part.

I have a lot to think about now.

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I will concur with your opinion of the Quattro style sensor. The colors appear to be more natural to my eyes.

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danski0224 said:

In my opinion, Sigma SPP monochrome conversion is better than Lightroom color to mono of a Sigma based file. SPP also has the color wheel in the left adjustment pane where you can do a custom mix of how the sensor data is used from the 3 layers. That is (or seems to be) unique to Sigma. If there is an equal in Lightroom, I do not know of it or how to use the program fully.

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danski0224 said:

Using the Sigma Quattro in full spectrum mode seems to provide better monochrome images, but going back to color is a PITA due to replacement of the dust protector (having 2 sdQ's has crossed my mind). External hot mirrors, like from Kolari, do not seem to match what Sigma uses (close, but not quite). The Quattro seems to suffer in trying to capture a custom white balance in full spectrum mode compared to the SD1M.

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danski0224 said:

It is generally accepted as best practice to turn off all noise reduction in SPP and process noise after the TIFF is made, if desired.

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danski0224 said:

If sharpness is to be added, I add it in SPP, but usually only a little bit (less than 1). It used to be that the recommendation was to set sharpening to -2 in SPP, but Sigma changed something in the last update. Adding sharpness in Lightroom seems to hurt IQ.

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danski0224 said:

I haven't used the 5DsR much lately, but so far, it appears to be an equal (at least) to what I see for detail in my Sigma sdQ images. There is something about the colors that is unique to Foveon compared to Bayer based sensors. Not that Canon color is "bad".

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danski0224 said:

Oddly enough, I prefer the Sigma sd body and control layout over the 5 series Canon.

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danski0224 said:

The ISO range of the Canon far exceeds the generally accepted usable range of any Sigma Foveon camera.

The AF consistency of the 5dsR will beat the AF of the SD1M for sure. The AF accuracy of the sdQ is quite good when paired with the latest Global Vision lenses

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danski0224 said:

One important thing for some is the Canon will give you DoF preview and the Sigma sd cannot.

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danski0224 said:

The failure of my sdQ to operate at -5*F was a disappointment- although it was being operated outside of the design specs. I have not had a Canon fail (battery, yes) and the SD1M also continued to work.

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danski0224 said:

It'll be interesting to see what Sigma comes up with next.

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danski0224 said:

--
Moments in Time, a work in progress.... https://www.flickr.com/gp/142423236@N08/965cs3

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expro said:

Completely agree. I have zero issues with 5dsr and believe this is another technie forum myth. I have shot over 50k with mine alongside my 1dx. I take a lot of landscape and portraits and only use a tripod in the golden hours.

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gariktal said:

expro said:

Completely agree. I have zero issues with 5dsr and believe this is another technie forum myth. I have shot over 50k with mine alongside my 1dx. I take a lot of landscape and portraits and only use a tripod in the golden hours.

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the fact that it has not happened to you does not mean that the issue is a myth, it only means that you have a very firm hand and an excellent shooting technique (the fact that you also use a 1dx says it all, I mean that you are comfortable with big cameras);

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rrccad said:

ecka84 said:

Sittatunga said:

ecka84 said:

gariktal said:

ecka84 said:

I wouldn't worry about 5DsR's need for a tripod. Technically, its pixel density is just like of any 20mp crop camera (7D2/70D). So, all the 24mp APS-C chips require a tripod for "pixel sharpness" even more than the 5DsR. And somehow nobody is complaining about it. Perfection requires a tripod regardless of the cameras we use. However, most of the time, "good enough" is all I need.

Click to expand...

theory or personal experience?

my personal experience says that while I have never had trouble getting "pixel sharpness" using 24mp APS-C sensors, I have had that kind of issue with the 5DS, and I am not alone, the web is full of similar issues with these cameras. The pixel density may be similar between FF and APS-C high resolution sensors , but weight and ergonomics are different and they also play a part in our ability to keep a camera/lens combo steady enough to avoid motion blur. As I have stated before I believe that this is a highly subjective issue, but considering the number of people experiencing it I guess it is fair to inform a potential new user about it. My solution has been working with my shooting technique, now when I shoot with the 5DS I process shutter speed information in a different way than when I shoot with the X-T2.

Click to expand...

It's logic.

Can you provide any evidence or test results which would suggest that the 5DsR needs a tripod more than a 24mp crop camera? Because it may be just another supstitious folklore myth. Of course, size/weight matters and 5DsR is heavier than most APS-C cameras. Plus Canon made a special mirror vibration control mechanism for it, as well as the shutter release delay options. Because this camera was intended for those who actually care about getting the maximum detail and sharpness out of it. It's not just a 5D3 with a different sensor i it.

Click to expand...

It's pixel density times focal length. For a 35mm format camera I would expect to use a lens of 1.6x the focal length of the lens I would use for APS-C. For the same pixel density and shutter speed I would expect about 1.6x the camera shake at the pixel level.

The 5Ds has a better mirror mechanism and more inertia in the body but it needs it as there's about 4x the kinetic energy involved in moving the larger mirror a greater distance in the same time when you take the picture.

The original reciprocal shutter speed rule is a hangover from film days when the expected standard of sharpness was equivalent to about seven megapixels. Even forty years ago it was recognised that pictures taken with electronic flash were much sharper than those just following the reciprocal rule.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the idea. The rule of thumb, not really scientific. 20mp, 30mp, 40mp and 50mp cameras all need a different multiplier.

Click to expand...

depends. a 20MP APS-C would have the same multiplier as a 50MP full frame.

Click to expand...

Member said:

a 100mm lens on the 20mp aps-c will have the same handhold-ability as a 100mm lens on a 50mp sensor.

Click to expand...

Member said:

there may be a difference in the amount of mirrorslap force, but it's most likely close enough with all things being equal.

Click to expand...

rrccad said:

gariktal said:

expro said:

Completely agree. I have zero issues with 5dsr and believe this is another technie forum myth. I have shot over 50k with mine alongside my 1dx. I take a lot of landscape and portraits and only use a tripod in the golden hours.

Click to expand...

the fact that it has not happened to you does not mean that the issue is a myth, it only means that you have a very firm hand and an excellent shooting technique (the fact that you also use a 1dx says it all, I mean that you are comfortable with big cameras);

Click to expand...

it is a myth that it would suffer dramatically more than any other high density sensor.

current 24MP sensors are 61MP for full frame. the angular motion would be the same regardless of sensor size, it's the pixel pitch that is the determining factor. unless the weight was a problem for you and you have poor camera holding technique.

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gariktal said:

rrccad said:

gariktal said:

expro said:

Completely agree. I have zero issues with 5dsr and believe this is another technie forum myth. I have shot over 50k with mine alongside my 1dx. I take a lot of landscape and portraits and only use a tripod in the golden hours.

Click to expand...

the fact that it has not happened to you does not mean that the issue is a myth, it only means that you have a very firm hand and an excellent shooting technique (the fact that you also use a 1dx says it all, I mean that you are comfortable with big cameras);

Click to expand...

it is a myth that it would suffer dramatically more than any other high density sensor.

current 24MP sensors are 61MP for full frame. the angular motion would be the same regardless of sensor size, it's the pixel pitch that is the determining factor. unless the weight was a problem for you and you have poor camera holding technique.

Click to expand...

I use and I've used cameras with high density sensors (X-T2, KP, 5DS) and I have experienced the motion blur issue only with the 5DS. Camera holding technique is not an estabilished/fixed value/ability, of course there are certain correct notions about it that you need to master but then comes the real factor: how a camera's ergonomics fit your hands. Some cameras - the KP in my case - seem to be a natural fit, other cameras - the 5DS in my case - require some work to do. IMHO and experience ergonomics is a much more decisive factor than weight, the X-T2 is lighter than the KP but I am much more at ease with the Pentax. And there is another thing: a 24mp APS-C sensor may have a higher density than a 50mp FF but the high density FF sensor thanks to its bigger pixels will provide much more resolution than its APS-C counterpart so motion blur will be much more evident than when shooting APS-C. If I get a clean file shot with the 5DS+100L combo I can magnify it 200% and see unbelievable detail, if I go to 200% with a KP file what am I watching: motion blur or a sensor at the end of its rope?

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Vector12 said:

I have not tried full spectrum mode, in part due to my worry that I'll damage the hot mirror. At some point I plan on getting an IR cut filter to see what kind of results I can get.

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