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EPL9 - They Must Be Kidding

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jwilliams said:
Ever since then I have had a real dislike of marketing people and companies who let them run all over their engineers.
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Thanks for the background story, and I can readily see the same in my life.

I worked for DEC from 1977 to 1988 and saw it go from an engineering orientated company to a marketing company. I was hands on fixing computers in the field and at times saw the results of stupid marketing promises. Retired early and got out of the madness.

(Hey, that means I have been retired for 30 years now. Not sure what I have achieved in all that "leisure" time).

Meanwhile Olympus Camera Division is in a fight for life, it needs to make profits on what it sells now that the market has largely matured and turnover in the form of customer upgrading has faded.

The customers they aim at are probably looking at something better than a pocket camera which is mostly a dead market now, or something better than a smartphone for improved image quality.

The "old" 16MP sensor (hopefully sufficiently updated in its internal tech to near latest standards) is not a problem as even 5MP or 8MP would be plenty for purpose but not these days for purely marketing reasons.

The big problem for camera makers is that it would take maybe a minimum of 3 years from first scribbles on the back of an envelope to the finished product on the shelf, meanwhile fashions and trends change on a 6 monthly basis, it's a cruel world.

Regards..... Guy
 
Guy Parsons said:
jwilliams said:
Ever since then I have had a real dislike of marketing people and companies who let them run all over their engineers.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the background story, and I can readily see the same in my life.

I worked for DEC from 1977 to 1988 and saw it go from an engineering orientated company to a marketing company. I was hands on fixing computers in the field and at times saw the results of stupid marketing promises. Retired early and got out of the madness.
Click to expand...
An early exit is great if you can. I'm getting tired of the tech world and don't have much more time in it either. Actually I may retire this year.

Before I started my company one of my customers at the consulting firm I worked for used a DEC PDP11. This was a government testing lab. Someone told me at the time it cost them something like $30K a year just for the maintenance contract (Does that sound right?). The custom software developed for it cost about a million dollars. This was in 1988 money. I replaced the whole thing with a PC and custom software I wrote for about $10K. Big savings!

It was fun back then. I was doing things with PCs that most people only thought could be done with mainframes.

So yes tech moves very swiftly in many industries, and not just cameras and computers.
Guy Parsons said:
(Hey, that means I have been retired for 30 years now. Not sure what I have achieved in all that "leisure" time).

Meanwhile Olympus Camera Division is in a fight for life, it needs to make profits on what it sells now that the market has largely matured and turnover in the form of customer upgrading has faded.

The customers they aim at are probably looking at something better than a pocket camera which is mostly a dead market now, or something better than a smartphone for improved image quality.

The "old" 16MP sensor (hopefully sufficiently updated in its internal tech to near latest standards) is not a problem as even 5MP or 8MP would be plenty for purpose but not these days for purely marketing reasons.
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Yeah MP really isn't the problem. Just using old tech to save what must be a tiny amount of money seems the wrong way to me.
Guy Parsons said:
The big problem for camera makers is that it would take maybe a minimum of 3 years from first scribbles on the back of an envelope to the finished product on the shelf, meanwhile fashions and trends change on a 6 monthly basis, it's a cruel world.

Regards..... Guy
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I am sure I would be terrible at running a camera company. My first model would probably be damn good. Then we'd probably go out of business.

Glad I just use them to take pictures with.

--
Jonathan
 
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in my assessment of the EPL9.

Loading…

www.mirrorlessrumors.com

"After the Panasonic GF10 we got another underwhelming MFT announcement. Olympus announced the E-PL9 which uses the usual 16Mp sensor that feels like 100 years old"

Makes me look like I was flattering it.
 
No, you don't get it. . . .

You aren't included in the target market for this camera. This is an entry-level camera targeted at those who wouldn't be caught dead spending their time posting in a camera-tech-geek forum like this one. On average, members of the target market -- disproportionately female and likely inexperienced photographers -- don't care that it isn't 20mp, or that it doesn't have CDAF+PDAF, that electronic shutter is limited, that it doesn't have an EVF (cellphones don't have one), or a port to attach an auxiliary viewfinder. What they seem to want -- and Olympus emphasized this in its media blast -- is a basic but smart, small camera that is pretty to look at, fun to use, and does all the work for you, like a cellphone, but improves significantly on cellphone output.

I think the criticisms of the camera's specs are misplaced. The EPL9 isn't aimed at those who participate in photography forums. It's aimed at those who don't.

. . . Steven
 
jwilliams said:
in my assessment of the EPL9.

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/next-underwhelming-mft-announcement-new-olympus-e-pl9/

"After the Panasonic GF10 we got another underwhelming MFT announcement. Olympus announced the E-PL9 which uses the usual 16Mp sensor that feels like 100 years old"
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Well what other options does Oly has?

16mp sensor that "feels like 100 years old", or their "state-of-the-art(!)" 20mp sensor reserved for top end.....

Seriously it is what it is......can't expect too much no?
jwilliams said:
Makes me look like I was flattering it.
Click to expand...
 
Sdlv said:
No, you don't get it. . . .

You aren't included in the target market for this camera. This is an entry-level camera targeted at those who wouldn't be caught dead spending their time posting in a camera-tech-geek forum like this one. On average, members of the target market -- disproportionately female and likely inexperienced photographers -- don't care that it isn't 20mp, or that it doesn't have CDAF+PDAF, that electronic shutter is limited, that it doesn't have an EVF (cellphones don't have one), or a port to attach an auxiliary viewfinder. What they seem to want -- and Olympus emphasized this in its media blast -- is a basic but smart, small camera that is pretty to look at, fun to use, and does all the work for you, like a cellphone, but improves significantly on cellphone output.

I think the criticisms of the camera's specs are misplaced. The EPL9 isn't aimed at those who participate in photography forums. It's aimed at those who don't.

. . . Steven
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Totally understand the target audience thing. Most say it has been an Asian women all the way from the EPL1. Fine I accept that.

For some reason that Asian woman wanted both a flash, EVF port and decent grip on the first 2 versions.

The next 6 versions she decided she wanted to be carrying around a clip on flash and go thru several iterations of a mostly useless grip. But the EVF port must stay.

Then with the 9 she asked for the flash to return but informed them that she no longer needed the EVF port. Somehow while she was at it she neglected to tell them to remove the hot shoe also. I can guarantee even fewer people will add a big honking external flash to this camera than would have added an EVF. Especially now since it actually has a flash built in that will suit the target audience fine.

Just no reasonable logic there.
 
Sdlv said:
No, you don't get it. . . .

You aren't included in the target market for this camera. This is an entry-level camera targeted at those who wouldn't be caught dead spending their time posting in a camera-tech-geek forum like this one. On average, members of the target market -- disproportionately female and likely inexperienced photographers -- don't care that it isn't 20mp, or that it doesn't have CDAF+PDAF, that electronic shutter is limited, that it doesn't have an EVF (cellphones don't have one), or a port to attach an auxiliary viewfinder. What they seem to want -- and Olympus emphasized this in its media blast -- is a basic but smart, small camera that is pretty to look at, fun to use, and does all the work for you, like a cellphone, but improves significantly on cellphone output.

I think the criticisms of the camera's specs are misplaced. The EPL9 isn't aimed at those who participate in photography forums. It's aimed at those who don't.

. . . Steven
Click to expand...
Agreed with everything above.

It's sad sure...but it's also very true.
 
jwilliams said:
An early exit is great if you can. I'm getting tired of the tech world and don't have much more time in it either. Actually I may retire this year.

Before I started my company one of my customers at the consulting firm I worked for used a DEC PDP11. This was a government testing lab. Someone told me at the time it cost them something like $30K a year just for the maintenance contract (Does that sound right?).
Click to expand...
Possibly right. Those were the days of serious sized computers in their own air-con rooms with raised floors to run the cables under. So installation costs and service costs were high. There were always things to fix and bits to replace on maintenance visits.
jwilliams said:
The custom software developed for it cost about a million dollars. This was in 1988 money. I replaced the whole thing with a PC and custom software I wrote for about $10K. Big savings!
Click to expand...
Yes, more or less overnight things changed and DEC was not in the race.
jwilliams said:
It was fun back then. I was doing things with PCs that most people only thought could be done with mainframes.
Click to expand...
Yup and my hobby task in the early '80's was to write and maintain a suite of programs for car race clubs, timing events and printing results etc. All done with a Commodore 64 as their clocks could be easily tuned accurately. Was within 1/100 sec after a major 12 hour car race we timed.
jwilliams said:
So yes tech moves very swiftly in many industries, and not just cameras and computers.
Click to expand...
For the tech sources it gets easier and cheaper over time to make more complex thingies. We old vacuum tube babies have a hard time keeping up. My first computer maintenance job in 1963 was on a very large room filling vacuum tube computer, then onto later models with discrete transistors and components, then onto TTL chips then on and on to more techie things as time progressed.
As for cameras, one day a real global sensor will arrive in a stills camera and I may get interested in possibly replacing my E-P5. It works nicely for me now so no need to look at anything else.

Regards...... Guy
 
Marty4650 said:
Have you noticed that this is the eight iteration of the Pen Lite in slightly less than 8 years? Or the ninth, if you count the EPL1s?

Why do you suppose Olympus has released so many EPL models?

It seems to me that they must have a strong market for this type of camera. If they didn't then it would have surely disappeared, much like the Pen Mini models did.

The EPL9 might not be appealing to you or me, but someone must want them. Why else would Olympus keep creating so many updates? My guess is this is a very popular camera in Asia.

Come to think of it.... how many GF type cameras has Panasonic had so far?

In order to be a major camera maker a manufacturer needs to have a product for every customer. This is why Canon offers TWELVE different kinds of cameras in their current catalog and why Pentax only offers FOUR.
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mchnz said:
Marty4650 said:
Have you noticed that this is the eight iteration of the Pen Lite in slightly less than 8 years? Or the ninth, if you count the EPL1s?

Why do you suppose Olympus has released so many EPL models?

It seems to me that they must have a strong market for this type of camera. If they didn't then it would have surely disappeared, much like the Pen Mini models did.

The EPL9 might not be appealing to you or me, but someone must want them. Why else would Olympus keep creating so many updates? My guess is this is a very popular camera in Asia.

Come to think of it.... how many GF type cameras has Panasonic had so far?

In order to be a major camera maker a manufacturer needs to have a product for every customer. This is why Canon offers TWELVE different kinds of cameras in their current catalog and why Pentax only offers FOUR.

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
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The EPL9 Olympus.au ad in my inbox this morning featured EPL9 users that were all fashionably dressed women in an urban setting.

Incomparison the ad I was sent last year for the E-M10 III featured only male users, all fashionably dressed for the outdoors (one women was featured standing by a guy holding the camera).

From that I would guess they might be aiming the EPL9 at urban woman.

I believe the camera market for young women was a big thing a few years back in Japan. For a while the EPL line became particularly small and colorful (and some other manufactures made DSLR's in weird colors too). Perhaps this segment of the market is still alive and kicking. I remember reading one interview where Olympus even referred to the trend - stating that the E-M5 was more of a return to normal. I think the Japanese may have referred to this as the "Camera Girl" market - but that phrase rubbed a few people up the wrong way in this forum.

--
----
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digitaltrails/
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I can see the urban women's market is there to be explored, BUT I believe those women are also more than just fashion conscious buyers and would compare features, performances, size and prices, in addition to the colour of the skin on the camera.
 
Last edited:
I agree !

They're either going backwards or standing still. They did the same with the introduction of the EM10 Mklll.
 
Marty4650 said:
Have you noticed that this is the eight iteration of the Pen Lite in slightly less than 8 years? Or the ninth, if you count the EPL1s?

Why do you suppose Olympus has released so many EPL models?

It seems to me that they must have a strong market for this type of camera. If they didn't then it would have surely disappeared, much like the Pen Mini models did.

The EPL9 might not be appealing to you or me, but someone must want them. Why else would Olympus keep creating so many updates? My guess is this is a very popular camera in Asia.

Come to think of it.... how many GF type cameras has Panasonic had so far?
Click to expand...
Panasonic just announced the Panasonic GF10! Yeah!

Loading…

www.43rumors.com

And it looks like one that checked off a lot of my want list! Yeah!

But it won't be available in North America. Boo!

Take care & Happy Shooting!
:)
Marty4650 said:
In order to be a major camera maker a manufacturer needs to have a product for every customer. This is why Canon offers TWELVE different kinds of cameras in their current catalog and why Pentax only offers FOUR.
Click to expand...
 
Think back to 2010, when the EPL1 was first introduced.

The new camera was promoted by a fashionable young women showing us how easily an EPL1 fits in your pocket or purse. That ad series was named "Look What You Can Do."



And there was probably a good reason that the Pen Mini came in six different colors. Including pale pink, and light purple.

nr110630epm1e_01.jpg




--
Marty
www.flickr.com

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my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
 
Not sure about Japan, but for most of the women here, I see them either using their smartphone or an entry level Nikon and Canon dSLRs when they need "better quality." This is what I usually see in kids' school, birthday party, field trips, vacation, etc ...
 
jwilliams said:
Guy Parsons said:
jwilliams said:
Guy Parsons said:
shinndigg said:
It not be loss for you Guy, but it makes the EP-L9 a non starter for me and I'm sure many others
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It seems that I need to repeat that the camera is aimed at women buyers, it is not something designed for DPReview camera geeks.
Click to expand...
So who was the EPL1 thru 8 aimed at?
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The Lite series has always been aimed at women buyers.
jwilliams said:
They all had a VF port.
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Yes, I guess that was engineering having more say than marketing at some stage.
jwilliams said:
I would say that at least for the last few iterations the main target was probably Asian women.
Click to expand...
It has always been that market for the Lites.
jwilliams said:
If they left the VF port in, the main target audience would never have noticed or cared. Then they had a chance to EXPAND the number of people using the camera. Isn't more people using your product better?
Click to expand...
As someone said, they probably checked the number of Lite buyers (really huge) against the number of VF-2/3/4 sold (really tiny) and found a big mismatch.

The market they are aiming at has never used a viewfinder and never will.

Meanwhile I cannot understand your continued outrage about something that you will never consider buying, it all gets a bit tedious.

Regards..... Guy
Click to expand...
Guy:

I'm not outraged. Seriously. That's a whole other level.

It is probably my background that makes me shake my head at stuff like this. I am an engineer by trade (Electrical). I have run a consulting business for 29 years. My first big customer was developing a new product for the test and measurement world. Really innovative stuff. Unfortunately they put the wrong engineer in charge of it. He spun his wheels for 2 years before they brought me in. After a few months with me on board we were still going nowhere.

The problem was he was promising his potential customers everything under the sun without consulting the engineers about either the feasibility or cost of his endless changes. Most were not real product improvements either.
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An old EE myself, I'm sure this sort of thing NEVER ONCE happened during my career. The Marketing dep always made clear and realistic demands, we wrote the specs and detailed the deliverables, costs and deadlines, Marketing and Finance approved the whole project and it was delivered with no further management interference. DOH! :-x
jwilliams said:
Well after several months of spinning wheels they removed him from the project and put in place a REAL engineer. We moved quickly to get the product to market and followed up with several USEFUL updates.

The guy who had been in charge went to work in the - drum roll please - MARKETING DEPARTMENT.
Click to expand...
Flabbergasted; I would never have guessed... ;-)
jwilliams said:
Ever since then I have had a real dislike of marketing people and companies who let them run all over their engineers.
Click to expand...
I have see most models used within the same company: Engineering-centered, Finance-centered and finally, Marketing-centered. All had pros and cons but the last was by far the most bewildering...
jwilliams said:
I have seen similar things happen at other companies also, but nowhere near as bad. I have also worked for people who really valued the engineering talent they had and balanced that with the input from he marketing folks.
Click to expand...
Definitely, when a "truce" can occur between Marketing and Engineering, it is the best situation but you need marketers who understand a bit of engineering and engineers who understand where the marketer wants to go and translate it in a feasible project. Not always the case... :-(

Oly is definitely being run by the marketing people at the cost of the engineers.
jwilliams said:
Sorry if this bothers you, but we all have a past and this is mine.

My apologies if this was a bit long winded.

--
Jonathan
Click to expand...
 
WhiteBeard said:
Which then begs the questions: What camera do Crocodile Dundees go for?
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A well used Nikon F2 Photomic. Apparently, when mounted on the end of a monopod, it makes a great crocodile bashing weapon!
 
gary0319 said:
Now, if they had included a small EVF built in and priced it just below $1K,
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Sounds a bit like the GX80 which would be half that cost.
gary0319 said:
I'd buy it and forego my LX100. But alas, I'm not their target market for this camera, either. So........I'll have to move on, nothing more for me to see here with the PL9. Or you, Jonathan.
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I have an E-PL5 which I've been using for over 5 years. I mean, good gosh, what does this camera, outside of 4K video, offer me?

I would have hoped by now we'd at least have a better sensor (Real ISO 100, Higher dynamic range, less noise at higher ISOs) and 5 axis stabalization.

I guess I'll hang onto my E-PL5 a few more years.
 
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