Long live 16MP

how comparitively densely populated are 4/3 sensors compared to larger common sensors and what advantage, if any, there is in it.
E-M1 Mark ii, 20mp, pixel pitch: 3.32 µm
Nikon D850, 45.70mp, pixel pitch: 4.34 µm
Pentax 645Z, 51mp MF, pixel pitch: 5.32 µm

Theoretically, the differences are:
- smaller pixel pitch = diffraction at wider apertures
- smaller pixel pitch = better low-light performance
- smaller pixel pitch = smoother tonalities, less noise
- allows higher MP counts
- higher MP counts require more demanding technique to perform optimally
- higher MP counts tax storage and CPU/RAM/computer resources
- smaller pixel pitch = more heat, harder to cool off

Practically speaking, a lot of this depends on the manufacturer's implementation, and print size. At 8" x 10" prints, you probably won't notice a difference. At 17" x 22", I've found that the differences between an E-M1 and D810 can be pretty subtle. Bigger than that and it's more obvious... though your viewer will be further away.

IMO single-shot 50mp for M43 will have too much diffraction, too much noise, and will require stable tripod or strobe to get the most out of it. If you really need that much info, you're probably better off with 35mm sensors.
Ok, if I accept that 16/20Mp is enough for my needs in terms of resolution, low light performance and DR, what can be done to provide smoother tonal gradients? Is it a matter of moving to 14/16 bit RAW files? If so, I would rather see a 16 or 20Mp sensor with 14bit RAWs than a 24Mp/12bit sensor continuing the same gradual improvements we've seen since the E-M5 sensor, while further impacting the effects of diffraction at smaller apertures.
 
how comparitively densely populated are 4/3 sensors compared to larger common sensors and what advantage, if any, there is in it.
E-M1 Mark ii, 20mp, pixel pitch: 3.32 µm
Nikon D850, 45.70mp, pixel pitch: 4.34 µm
Pentax 645Z, 51mp MF, pixel pitch: 5.32 µm

Theoretically, the differences are:
- smaller pixel pitch = diffraction at wider apertures
- smaller pixel pitch = better low-light performance
- smaller pixel pitch = smoother tonalities, less noise
- allows higher MP counts
- higher MP counts require more demanding technique to perform optimally
- higher MP counts tax storage and CPU/RAM/computer resources
- smaller pixel pitch = more heat, harder to cool off

Practically speaking, a lot of this depends on the manufacturer's implementation, and print size. At 8" x 10" prints, you probably won't notice a difference. At 17" x 22", I've found that the differences between an E-M1 and D810 can be pretty subtle. Bigger than that and it's more obvious... though your viewer will be further away.

IMO single-shot 50mp for M43 will have too much diffraction, too much noise, and will require stable tripod or strobe to get the most out of it. If you really need that much info, you're probably better off with 35mm sensors.
Thanks, just as much as sliver-sized sensors maxed out their pixel densities and brought their pixel packing into some sort of disrepute then there must also be some practical limit of physics where packing ever more pixels on a given size sensor must become more bother than it is worth.

The easy way out (quality of image disregarded) is to use larger sensors and make the practical limit of pixel packing that much higher.

But then other issues raise their head - just how much pixel resoluton do we need? How much do we ever need to crop? Just how much do atmospheric conditions or lack of camera technique intrude outside issues into the otherwise perfect capture gear? How huge the storage space and processing power needed for ever larger sensors with ever more pixels.

Ever bigger sensors require larger gear, just how much larger is acceptable is a moot point that must vary by potential user and the depths of their pockets (among other things). Ever more highly populated sensors require better personal skills and technique - beyond perhaps the levels of even a normally well equipped semi-pro and certinaly beyond he levels of the vast majority of amateurs looking for easy-photography.

Maybe the ideal camera will have a curved very large sensor with high number of pixel and a single wide perfectly corrected prime lens built specifically for the sensor and therefore smaller and more simple (to keep the outfit compact).
A 60" Schmidt camera on top of a mountain outside Coonabarrabran sounds ideal ...
Then cropping will seriously be our friend and by pointing a camera in a general direction with corrected focus we will be able to take one image croppable into many variations.

But in the meantime even a 16mp 4/3 sensor does quite well. It will take a reasonable crop but not a huge one and good lenses can make up for lack of cropping ability if we choose well. Using multiple lenses and thinking about what we will capture is part of the aura and mystique of photography and the complete antithesis to mobile phone capture and my postulation of that complete curved sensor simple solution that I mentioned above.
My pre-war Minox has a curved film plane, ditto the enlarger, to compensate.
So it all gets back to photography being a challenge made up with a bunch of complex equipement and a user who wishes to master the gear and their photographic opportunities.

The final image is only the reward at the end of the effort - much less reward if the effort is not really required.


So maybe the 4/3 sensor is well positioned - large enough and well serviced by bodies and lenses to make acceptable images for those who like to craft the business of photography. Not, and/or never will be , the best in the business but will not require the expenditure and have the size constraints needed by larger sensors but will not tax competence or brain power to the nth degree required for perfect imaging.

It still leaves the 4/3 sensor staring down the barrel of what might be the commercial practical limit of how many pixels maketh the very best and ultimate 4/3 sensor. What happens then when adding more pixels might even degrade the image? Marketing will have an answer but more and more pixels cannot satisfy forever.

I think I would like to be the very best in the C grade where good gear can help than forever trailing the pack in the A grade where personal skill will always outpace the very best gear combined with my own limited capability.
 
If they ever ... would fit a multi-aspect sensor to the GX9 which would allow portrait mode with the camera held in landsape orientation and then no longer need a FAS for portrait mode shots - a tilt lcd alone would be perfect ...

(pop! - bubble broken - I just bought a G9 :) )

I don’t need that sort of temptation - steady as she goes and a FAS and I can find my resistance building up again.

One might even wonder if a GX9 might in fact replace the GX85.
 
... however, I wish it would be a matter of time. Sometimes for the non top of the line products might have to queue up with more patient.

If a GF or a GX (not GX8), or EPL will have the latest organic sensor before GHs, G9 or EM1s, I can foreseen the even bigger complaint/pressure to Pany / Oly...

Wishing the system can move up step by step...
 
Ok, if I accept that 16/20Mp is enough for my needs in terms of resolution, low light performance and DR, what can be done to provide smoother tonal gradients?
Use a larger sensor, with a larger pixel pitch.
Is it a matter of moving to 14/16 bit RAW files?
12-bit vs 14-bit seems to be... a contentious topic. My impression is that the difference is quite small, and that 14 bit explodes file size. I expect BSI will make a bigger difference.

However, there are multiple issues here. One is that, as we saw when Samsung put out a BSI sensor, they decided to increase MP rather than put all the benefits into DR, tonality and so forth. I would not be surprised at all if that happens with 4/3 sensors as well.

Another is that sensor tech is mature. We are no longer in the era where you need to buy a new body every 18 months just to scramble for decent IQ. Even BSI won't help much.

A bigger issue is that most people are stuck thinking in relative terms, rather than absolute. Larger sensors will always produce technically superior images, and no matter how good 4/3 sensors are in absolute terms, for some people it will never be enough.

So if you really need more DR and smoother tonality (which not everyone does), I think you're just going to have to use a larger sensor.
 
But then other issues raise their head - just how much pixel resoluton do we need? How much do we ever need to crop...? etc
Yep. It's a trade-off. Portability and file size vs sheer IQ. Everyone needs to make their own call on that one.
Maybe the ideal camera will have a curved very large sensor with high number of pixel....
Maybe, but I doubt it. We constantly hear promises about the great new thing on the horizon, and it usually doesn't pan out.
 
... however, I wish it would be a matter of time. Sometimes for the non top of the line products might have to queue up with more patient.

If a GF or a GX (not GX8), or EPL will have the latest organic sensor before GHs, G9 or EM1s, I can foreseen the even bigger complaint/pressure to Pany / Oly...
If this happens, it will be quite trivial for them to address it with a quick model update and sell more :)
Wishing the system can move up step by step...
Yes, but others out there may create a not very comfortable environment for conservative plans.

They had their chance at the G80/E-M10.3 point but did not take it. Now this is pushed back further to give APSC vendors a lot more space to grab sales at the bottom end. The me-too selfie features seem to be aimed at Casio's huge sales bump from that sort of thing but that could be too late, given what phones can do now.
 
Tom

As soon as you start cropping or using the same lens on different size sensors (cough), what matters is pixel pitch.

EM1.2 area = 1, pixels = 20M

A7R2 area = 4, pixels = 42M.

If I crop the A7R2 with say a 300mm FF lens to the same part of the image as an EM1.2 with a 300mm lens (MFT or adapted FF), then I get 10.5M pixels. Big advantage to the EM1.2.

On the other hand, if I use a 24mm on the A7R2 and a 12mm on the EM1.2, I get a similar image but with less than half the pixels. Potentially a big advantage to the A7R2. You can dispute the relative advantages of 4:3 vs 3:2 but it all depends on subject and composition. I find 4:3 more natural but landscapes often look better in 3:2.

Once you start stitching, then lens rendering, distortion and vignetting trump sensor size. If the light is changing or the wind is blowing etc, then stitching might be a bit trickier.

If you want to do complex focal plane stuff then stitching and a TS lens come into play. Again the sensor Mpix are less important than the lens.

At least, that's how I think about it.

Andrew
 
Someone please answer me - what should i buy instead my old E-P5? I have lovely lenses for m43. And i don't want spend more than 800$ for body. I hate P5 mainly due bad video recording quality (like to shoot it at my trips) and almost not working control dials (repair cost money!)
I am looks like an idiot when i let go camera and get the phone out of my pocket when i need to record video.
 
how comparitively densely populated are 4/3 sensors compared to larger common sensors and what advantage, if any, there is in it.
E-M1 Mark ii, 20mp, pixel pitch: 3.32 µm
Nikon D850, 45.70mp, pixel pitch: 4.34 µm
Pentax 645Z, 51mp MF, pixel pitch: 5.32 µm

Theoretically, the differences are:
- smaller pixel pitch = diffraction at wider apertures
- smaller pixel pitch = better low-light performance
- smaller pixel pitch = smoother tonalities, less noise
- allows higher MP counts
- higher MP counts require more demanding technique to perform optimally
- higher MP counts tax storage and CPU/RAM/computer resources
- smaller pixel pitch = more heat, harder to cool off

Practically speaking, a lot of this depends on the manufacturer's implementation, and print size. At 8" x 10" prints, you probably won't notice a difference. At 17" x 22", I've found that the differences between an E-M1 and D810 can be pretty subtle. Bigger than that and it's more obvious... though your viewer will be further away.

IMO single-shot 50mp for M43 will have too much diffraction, too much noise, and will require stable tripod or strobe to get the most out of it. If you really need that much info, you're probably better off with 35mm sensors.
Thanks, just as much as sliver-sized sensors maxed out their pixel densities and brought their pixel packing into some sort of disrepute then there must also be some practical limit of physics where packing ever more pixels on a given size sensor must become more bother than it is worth.

The easy way out (quality of image disregarded) is to use larger sensors and make the practical limit of pixel packing that much higher.

But then other issues raise their head - just how much pixel resoluton do we need? How much do we ever need to crop? Just how much do atmospheric conditions or lack of camera technique intrude outside issues into the otherwise perfect capture gear? How huge the storage space and processing power needed for ever larger sensors with ever more pixels.

Ever bigger sensors require larger gear, just how much larger is acceptable is a moot point that must vary by potential user and the depths of their pockets (among other things). Ever more highly populated sensors require better personal skills and technique - beyond perhaps the levels of even a normally well equipped semi-pro and certinaly beyond he levels of the vast majority of amateurs looking for easy-photography.

Maybe the ideal camera will have a curved very large sensor with high number of pixel and a single wide perfectly corrected prime lens built specifically for the sensor and therefore smaller and more simple (to keep the outfit compact). Then cropping will seriously be our friend and by pointing a camera in a general direction with corrected focus we will be able to take one image croppable into many variations.

But in the meantime even a 16mp 4/3 sensor does quite well. It will take a reasonable crop but not a huge one and good lenses can make up for lack of cropping ability if we choose well. Using multiple lenses and thinking about what we will capture is part of the aura and mystique of photography and the complete antithesis to mobile phone capture and my postulation of that complete curved sensor simple solution that I mentioned above.

So it all gets back to photography being a challenge made up with a bunch of complex equipement and a user who wishes to master the gear and their photographic opportunities.

The final image is only the reward at the end of the effort - much less reward if the effort is not really required.
I would say the effort is the reward, a nicely turned out final image is nice, but if the image doesn't turn out how we had hoped, hopefully we've learned something for the next time
So maybe the 4/3 sensor is well positioned - large enough and well serviced by bodies and lenses to make acceptable images for those who like to craft the business of photography. Not, and/or never will be , the best in the business but will not require the expenditure and have the size constraints needed by larger sensors but will not tax competence or brain power to the nth degree required for perfect imaging.

It still leaves the 4/3 sensor staring down the barrel of what might be the commercial practical limit of how many pixels maketh the very best and ultimate 4/3 sensor. What happens then when adding more pixels might even degrade the image? Marketing will have an answer but more and more pixels cannot satisfy forever.

I think I would like to be the very best in the C grade where good gear can help than forever trailing the pack in the A grade where personal skill will always outpace the very best gear combined with my own limited capability.
 
it's not about just resolution, but also noise, DR, color sensitivity. there's something about it. The onlinephotographer.com has noticed it a few times both for PenF and GX8. I def. noticed it on my Pen-F.
Exactly this ^. I also see this on the net samples. I liked the 12MP era because they had a very good tonality for a lot of use cases, but I did not like the 16MP at all for similar reasons. However, in the 20MP cameras, there's a kind of rendering I like again.

The problem is that I want it in a relatively simple body, no fancy GX8 or Pen-F. But they don't offer it for a long time now. What I would really like, but won't happen unfortunately, is a GF1-like body with built-in EVF and the GX8's sensor and image processing.
I don't mind they stick to 16 MP *if* it was a new sensor with better color, iso. But nope, same old thing.
 
What?

Here I though the GX8, Pen F, EM1-2 and G9 were 20 MP.
They are, and the only reason a couple of new cams are 16MP is market differentiation.
Cost is probably a factor.
I'll stick with 20 in my current cam.
20MP gives you a print that's just 11% larger than 16MP in each dimension.
Right, and more cropping ability. Again, if you can get more resolution without an increase in noise, why not?
 
it's not about just resolution, but also noise, DR, color sensitivity. there's something about it. The onlinephotographer.com has noticed it a few times both for PenF and GX8. I def. noticed it on my Pen-F.
Exactly this ^. I also see this on the net samples.
After using an E-M1 and Pen-F for about a year, I don't see any difference. At all. I use them interchangeably without any issues or qualms.

The differences between 16-20mp M43 and 24mp APS are pretty subtle. You have to print large, and look pretty closely, to see anything other than a color rendering difference.

Even with high resolution 35mm sensors, the differences aren't huge. A little less noise, slightly smoother tonality, sometimes a little more DR. You need to print larger than 16" x 20" to notice the extra resolution.

IMO the jump from 12mp to 16mp was a bit more meaningful, though I believe this is as much due to hardware programming as with the hardware itself.
 
Some opt

OLYMPUS EM1 mark II

Panasonic G85 (thouth I'm not sure if thetpresent price}

A refurbished Pen F

Panasonic GX85
 
Tom

As soon as you start cropping or using the same lens on different size sensors (cough), what matters is pixel pitch.

EM1.2 area = 1, pixels = 20M

A7R2 area = 4, pixels = 42M.

If I crop the A7R2 with say a 300mm FF lens to the same part of the image as an EM1.2 with a 300mm lens (MFT or adapted FF), then I get 10.5M pixels. Big advantage to the EM1.2.

On the other hand, if I use a 24mm on the A7R2 and a 12mm on the EM1.2, I get a similar image but with less than half the pixels. Potentially a big advantage to the A7R2. You can dispute the relative advantages of 4:3 vs 3:2 but it all depends on subject and composition. I find 4:3 more natural but landscapes often look better in 3:2.

Once you start stitching, then lens rendering, distortion and vignetting trump sensor size. If the light is changing or the wind is blowing etc, then stitching might be a bit trickier.

If you want to do complex focal plane stuff then stitching and a TS lens come into play. Again the sensor Mpix are less important than the lens.

At least, that's how I think about it.

Andrew
 
Tom

As soon as you start cropping or using the same lens on different size sensors (cough), what matters is pixel pitch.

EM1.2 area = 1, pixels = 20M

A7R2 area = 4, pixels = 42M.

If I crop the A7R2 with say a 300mm FF lens to the same part of the image as an EM1.2 with a 300mm lens (MFT or adapted FF), then I get 10.5M pixels. Big advantage to the EM1.2.

On the other hand, if I use a 24mm on the A7R2 and a 12mm on the EM1.2, I get a similar image but with less than half the pixels. Potentially a big advantage to the A7R2. You can dispute the relative advantages of 4:3 vs 3:2 but it all depends on subject and composition. I find 4:3 more natural but landscapes often look better in 3:2.

Once you start stitching, then lens rendering, distortion and vignetting trump sensor size. If the light is changing or the wind is blowing etc, then stitching might be a bit trickier.

If you want to do complex focal plane stuff then stitching and a TS lens come into play. Again the sensor Mpix are less important than the lens.

At least, that's how I think about it.

Andrew

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Thanks Andrew, I appreciate your response.

I was more reacting to another post where someone was complaining that the 4/3 sensor was getting left behind now that Fuji was sporting a 24mp aps-c sensor.

Can you update your comments for the relativity to the aps-c sensor?

--
Tom Caldwell
Tom

I'm not that familiar with APS sensors. However, assuming the crop factor relative to FF is 1.5:

EM1.2 area = 1, pixels = 20M

Apsc area = 1.78, pixels = 24M

Apsc cropped to FT with same FL lens is 13.5Mpix, ie a bit better than FF.

With WA lenses then the 4Mpix difference isn't very significant. I find that 16Mpix to 36Mpix is quite significant but 36Mpix to 42Mpix is not noticeable. Depending on sensor age, then the 75% increase in area might be important. Where the OEM put base ISO is probably the most important question for a landscape shooter, ie DR.

Andrew

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
So I suppose what I was getting at was that the 20mp 4/3 sensor is not that particularly disadvantaged to a 24mp senosr on aps-c - furthermore we all know that there is more to a sensor and its interface with a camera than just pixels and sensor area.

Maybe four fat tyres are better than four skinnier ones but a lot still depends on what is attached to them :)

--
Tom Caldwell
I tend to agree.



c686b79dc24b453ba07948e6bb657a0c.jpg

Andrew

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
 
it's not about just resolution, but also noise, DR, color sensitivity. there's something about it. The onlinephotographer.com has noticed it a few times both for PenF and GX8. I def. noticed it on my Pen-F.
Exactly this ^. I also see this on the net samples.
After using an E-M1 and Pen-F for about a year, I don't see any difference. At all. I use them interchangeably without any issues or qualms.

The differences between 16-20mp M43 and 24mp APS are pretty subtle. You have to print large, and look pretty closely, to see anything other than a color rendering difference.

Even with high resolution 35mm sensors, the differences aren't huge. A little less noise, slightly smoother tonality, sometimes a little more DR. You need to print larger than 16" x 20" to notice the extra resolution.

IMO the jump from 12mp to 16mp was a bit more meaningful, though I believe this is as much due to hardware programming as with the hardware itself.
Maybe what is small difference for you is not that small for someone else. Perception of differences is personal. I much prefer GX8's images to GX85 for example. I also don't like 16MP Oly era pictures too much, but that's true, that I don't like Pen-F pictures too. But all my judgements are based only on net samples with these cameras.
 
I agree with all you have said. Good marketing is full of simple edicts but good engineering is unfortunately filled with a lot of "it depends" and multiple boring parameters nobody want/ need to understand. One of the reasons engineers and marketeers (and CFOs) don't often agree...

I STILL prefer a swivel screen... ;-)
 
Maybe what is small difference for you is not that small for someone else.
Maybe. But I don't think so.

I've spent a fair amount of time comparing a variety of cameras, notably M43, APS (Fuji), 35mm, and M43 hi-res. I use the same lenses on the E-M1 and Pen-F. I've often shot the exact same scene with different cameras, making prints at various sizes (mostly 16" x 20", occasionally as big as 30" x 40") and carefully scrutinizing the results.

I don't do a lot of color, but that isn't really a function of sensor size. That's more about the choices made by the manufacturer and, optionally, the photographer.
Perception of differences is personal.
First: There are several objective tools we can bring to bear on many of these questions. DXO has some issues, for example, but its results for the 16 and 20mp cameras are all within a few points of one another. High-resolution 35mm sensor cameras score 30 points higher... and even those images show little difference than M43 at small print sizes (e.g. 8" x 10").

Second: Claims about subjectivity doesn't prove that those subjective perceptions are real. Expectations play a huge part in subjective evaluations, as is shown in numerous psychology studies.
 

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