Long live 16MP

I think it's pretty clear the decision has very little to do with cost but product differentiation.
I would totally agree. If they were only competing against themselves it might make sense. The reality is m43 cameras are the lowest IQ of any interchangeable lens cameras. Might hurt but it is true since Nikon 1 is dead.

They NEED to put the absolute best sensor they can in every body.
They can't and won't as I've explained.
For less money a person can buy a low end Canon or Nikofn DSLR. I just bought the cheapest DSLR Canon sells, the SL2. It has better IQ than any m43 camera out there.
Low end Canikon DSLR has bad ergonomics and lacking features (4k video for example) and the lenses are bigger and heavier in general.

It's my belief that most m43 users buy into the system due to size and weight, and being "good enough" who doesn't demand top notch IQ.
It is also a damn good camera. m43 isn't living in a vacuum.

I have several m43 and Canon cameras and without a doubt the m43 performance vs price is at the bottom of the pile. Don't get me wrong, I like m43, but with each passing day I find it hard to justify what you are getting for your money.
You are paying more for the reduction of size and weight, also the features.

m43 has never ever been about outright IQ.....it's all down to one's priority and what you value more.
--
Jonathan
--
My Flickr
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One choose MFT for

1 lens choice

2 superior in body IS

and not for megapixels. So I don't like 16MP in 2018 but I can tolerate

but only experienced photographer can see the MFT advantage

That's why I am quite amazed entry level buyers who mostly don't understand photography would choose 16MP MFT and not 24MP APS-C

Miracle to meOlympus/Panasonic manage to sell 16MP camera in 2018
 
everyone believe DXO and said 20MP sensor in E-M1 II is better than 16MP

I don't totally trust DXO

my observation with my A6500 and GM5 don't seem to agree with DXO numbers

For example DXO said GM5 is way behind in high ISO but at 100% pixel level, I see about same noise in ISO 6400 for GM5/A6500

(I am not saying DXO is lying, they score base on all sensor downsized to 8MP so hard to say as I am no expert)

Again they rate GM5 dynamic range very low but I manage to pull out lots of highlight/shadow in RAW files

Anyway if one ignore DXO, for same sensor size could adding 4 more pixel actually mean lower IQ ?

Please remember 16MP MFT already equal 64MP in full frame, that is a lot already !!

This is pure speculation as I don't own 20MP MFT

could 4 more megapixel hurt noise and dynamic range and lower IQ?
 
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everyone believe DXO and said 20MP sensor in E-M1 II is better than 16MP

I don't totally trust DXO

my observation with my A6500 and GM5 don't seem to agree with DXO numbers

For example DXO said GM5 is way behind in high ISO but at 100% pixel level, I see about same noise in ISO 6400 for GM5/A6500
24 vs 16mp.

You need to normalize the output, i.e. downsize 24mp file from A6500 to 16mp.
(I am not saying DXO is lying, they score base on all sensor downsized to 8MP so hard to say as I am no expert)
Exactly this.
Again they rate GM5 dynamic range very low but I manage to pull out lots of highlight/shadow in RAW files
And you can pull out even more in A6500 RAW.
Anyway if one ignore DXO, for same sensor size could adding 4 more pixel actually mean lower IQ ?
No. It might give you the illusion of same ISO performance (due to reason you've written above), but IQ is more than just ISO.

The new 20mp sensor gives you slightly better DR, colour fidelity and tonality, also extra malleability.
Please remember 16MP MFT already equal 64MP in full frame, that is a lot already !!

This is pure speculation as I don't own 20MP MFT

could 4 more megapixel hurt noise and dynamic range and lower IQ?
 
The new 20mp sensor gives you slightly better DR, colour fidelity and tonality, also extra malleability.
Kinson, that's what I see comparing my E-M1 MkII with my E-M1 MkI, but a bit more than just "slightly". Less than "hugely" ;-) . A noticeable difference in most situations.
 
if what u said is true, adding 4 MP to same small MFT sensor and now equal to 80MP in full frame

still no degrade in noise/dynamic range (especially noise)

That is a miracle !!

Again I find DXO number not reliable. I also have NEX-5N and GM5 both 16MP

DXO rate 5N much higher in high ISO, what I found is not so

I see much less noise in ISO 6400 in GM5

I don't trust DXO number so I don't trust adding 4 MP to a already very dense small sensor can have better dynamic range/noise

One day if I have a 20MP MFT will know for sure but right now I think 16MP is enough for a small sensor
 
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but right now I think 16MP is enough for a small sensor
I agree with you, but we are talking about the big picture and long term sustainability of the system.

When one can purchase a camera/system with bigger sensor and higher MP for same or less money it certainly isn't helping the m43 system to grow and attract newcomers.
 
but right now I think 16MP is enough for a small sensor
I agree with you, but we are talking about the big picture and long term sustainability of the system.

When one can purchase a camera/system with bigger sensor and higher MP for same or less money it certainly isn't helping the m43 system to grow and attract newcomers.

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I already said I am amazed Olympus/Panasonic can still sell 16MP camera when all others is 24MP

Maybe entry level buyer at least in Japan are quite smart and really know photography

In Japan Olympus is number one in sales and most camera sold are 16MP

Even entry level buyers in Japan know the value of Olympus in body IS and don't care to buy 24MP

Also explain why Panasonic have low sales in Japan

16MP and no superior Olympus 5 axis IS, forget it
 
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So the 20mp sensor most likely costs quite a lot more than the “cooking level 16mp sensor” and can only be put into bodies that will sell at premium prices.

I
Tom:

It is probably more up your alley more than mine, but I have a hard time believing there is a significant cost difference between the 16 & 20 MP sensors. I tried to search for the costs but had no luck. I'm guessing it is probably in the single digits. If not may $20? Even if it were $50 I still see no reason to keep using the old sensor. The 20MP sensor will have been out 3 years in April. Surely the cost differential isn't much by now.
Well I simply don’t know but it is comnon in industry to require a guaranteed level of purchases to get the best price - which can be substantially less if the order is big enough. Quite often the product is only shipped and paid for on demand but if the full order is not bought within the prescribed contract time then there is a back-charge that can be imposed bringing the cost resptrospectively up to the smaller volume price - possibly with added penalties.

Years ago I did see a sensor price list. It sort of went something like (I forget the detail):

$1,100 each for the very latest and greatest sensor, $340 for the best current issue sensor and $30 for a very recently superseded sensor. Quantity orders would get reduced prices of course and I am sure that these quoted figures are not correct then and even less so now - but the huge disparity on pricing was evident. So if the current 16mp sensor was indeed $20 I would expect that the 20mp would be at least $200 unless it was part of a huge guaranteed order. Consequently that “$180” goes straight into the cost of a camera body, plus ancilliary costs and margin. Therefore unless Olympus and Panasonic were willing to place a very large order they could not hope to compete directly with YI. Furthemore there are some vague indications that maybe Panasonic might be thinking of a second source of supply and Olympus could go with it. If there is anything in that then they might not be too keen to tie themself up with a very large contractural purchase of Sony 20mp sensors.

I simply don’t know what might be going on an this is all conjecture. However it does throw a possible reasoning into the equation and I could accuse others posting on this thread as using just as much conjecture as I am doing.

Seems like people see things in a physical manner - there is a 20mp sensor in existence so why are Olympus and Panasonic not using it already and selling it for much the same price as before? In the real world companies have to sell product and plenty of it at prices that people will pay and will still return their company a good profit.

The buying public ar a fickle they always “want” and say that they will buy “if only ...” but when the chips are down and the product is in the shops the product must meet their rigorous specifications and pass all the reviewer’s tests as highly recommended and then they might wait until the price comes down if the RRP is deemed “too high”. Mmmm ... who would want to be in the camera/lens business? :)
Just looks bad to keep recycling old tech.

I actually might have had interest in the EPL9 since they finally put the flash back (7 iterations later). If there was even a small IQ bump it might have gotten my money. Now there is no way I will buy it.
I have a similar but different issue with the Sony A7R - I have one but dislike using it intensely and the great FF sensor is not enough to overcome my dislike. So my reasoning is that why should I buy a later model (the price has gone up considerably) when I have a perfectly good A7R already that is pretty much the same thing which I would simply ignore - much as I already do this.

Oh and I know that “I could sell it” but that is not my way or the common way in Australia - it seems to be buy and keep until it becomes junk-worthy :)

So Sony made a big mistake with me when they made all their “Series I” buyers into fully paid up “Beta testers” of a body that was hardly ergonomically sorted out. I bought quite a few dslr bodies before I saw the light but my old bodies were kept in service in parallel with the new ones for years. They were hardly wonders in ergonomics but were not truly bad either. Although I might grumble about the continual roll over cost of the dslr upgrades I think I still had good value as I happily used my older bodies as supplementary cameras for years afterwards until they were truly obsolete.

Yes I am in the public and I am fickle as well :)
 
One choose MFT for

1 lens choice

2 superior in body IS

and not for megapixels. So I don't like 16MP in 2018 but I can tolerate

but only experienced photographer can see the MFT advantage

That's why I am quite amazed entry level buyers who mostly don't understand photography would choose 16MP MFT and not 24MP APS-C

Miracle to meOlympus/Panasonic manage to sell 16MP camera in 2018
I think you are giving a bit too little credit to entry level buyers and also failing to factor in that there had been a lot of reverse marketing against high megapixels (for example iPhone promoting bigger pixels as better than more pixels). 24MP APS-C has also been out for so long that the market has probably been desensitized to it.

The other thing is that the current big craze is 4K video. Many of the 24MP APS-C cameras in the same price range don't have 4K video (or if they do it's completely crippled compared to M43).
 
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One choose MFT for

1 lens choice

2 superior in body IS

and not for megapixels. So I don't like 16MP in 2018 but I can tolerate

but only experienced photographer can see the MFT advantage

That's why I am quite amazed entry level buyers who mostly don't understand photography would choose 16MP MFT and not 24MP APS-C

Miracle to meOlympus/Panasonic manage to sell 16MP camera in 2018
I think you are giving a bit too little credit to entry level buyers and also failing to factor in that there had been a lot of reverse marketing against high megapixels (for example iPhone promoting bigger pixels as better than more pixels). 24MP APS-C has also been out for so long that the market has probably been desensitized to it.

The other thing is that the current big craze is 4K video. Many of the 24MP APS-C cameras in the same price range don't have 4K video (or if they do it's completely crippled compared to M43).
I think u got it

MFT entry level got real 4k, 24MP entry level APS-C don't
 
I think it's pretty clear the decision has very little to do with cost but product differentiation.
I would totally agree. If they were only competing against themselves it might make sense. The reality is m43 cameras are the lowest IQ of any interchangeable lens cameras. Might hurt but it is true since Nikon 1 is dead.

They NEED to put the absolute best sensor they can in every body.
They can't and won't as I've explained.
For less money a person can buy a low end Canon or Nikofn DSLR. I just bought the cheapest DSLR Canon sells, the SL2. It has better IQ than any m43 camera out there.
Low end Canikon DSLR has bad ergonomics and lacking features (4k video for example) and the lenses are bigger and heavier in general.
BS. I have the SL2 and it's ergonomics are as good and better than most m43 cameras I have owned and I have had over half a dozen. Lens size is mostly determined by effective aperture and FL. No that m43 35-100 f2.8 is NOT like a FF 70-200 2.8. If you think so then enjoy your fantasy.
It's my belief that most m43 users buy into the system due to size and weight, and being "good enough" who doesn't demand top notch IQ.
It is also a damn good camera. m43 isn't living in a vacuum.

I have several m43 and Canon cameras and without a doubt the m43 performance vs price is at the bottom of the pile. Don't get me wrong, I like m43, but with each passing day I find it hard to justify what you are getting for your money.
You are paying more for the reduction of size and weight, also the features.
Kind of like paying more for a 4 cylinder engine in your car vs a cheaper V8. Yeah that makes sense.
m43 has never ever been about outright IQ.....it's all down to one's priority and what you value more.
 
I think it's pretty clear the decision has very little to do with cost but product differentiation.
I would totally agree. If they were only competing against themselves it might make sense. The reality is m43 cameras are the lowest IQ of any interchangeable lens cameras. Might hurt but it is true since Nikon 1 is dead.

They NEED to put the absolute best sensor they can in every body.
They can't and won't as I've explained.
For less money a person can buy a low end Canon or Nikofn DSLR. I just bought the cheapest DSLR Canon sells, the SL2. It has better IQ than any m43 camera out there.
Low end Canikon DSLR has bad ergonomics and lacking features (4k video for example) and the lenses are bigger and heavier in general.
BS. I have the SL2 and it's ergonomics are as good and better than most m43 cameras I have owned and I have had over half a dozen.
Well for starters the SL2 has no twin dials.

Also now that I use EVF I would never ever go back to an OVF anymore.
Lens size is mostly determined by effective aperture and FL. No that m43 35-100 f2.8 is NOT like a FF 70-200 2.8. If you think so then enjoy your fantasy.
I understand all of that, but it seems that most m43 users are willing to trade aperture (in terms of DOF) for size and weight.
It's my belief that most m43 users buy into the system due to size and weight, and being "good enough" who doesn't demand top notch IQ.
It is also a damn good camera. m43 isn't living in a vacuum.

I have several m43 and Canon cameras and without a doubt the m43 performance vs price is at the bottom of the pile. Don't get me wrong, I like m43, but with each passing day I find it hard to justify what you are getting for your money.
You are paying more for the reduction of size and weight, also the features.
Kind of like paying more for a 4 cylinder engine in your car vs a cheaper V8. Yeah that makes sense.
I've been saying that for a long time.

Buying a f1,2 pro prime is the same as fitting a huge turbo onto a Yaris, makes zero sense to me ;)
m43 has never ever been about outright IQ.....it's all down to one's priority and what you value more.
 
Kinson & Jonathan, I hate to tell you this, but many 'pocket rockets' these days have tiny engines that are turbocharged from slightly above idle speed.

Some of these will cheerfully outperform cars with naturally aspirated V8s ...
 

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