D850 critical focus - is it even worth it?

balidaan · Jan 21, 2018

Hi Everyone

I used to own a D800 (since then I have moved to a D750 body), my biggest issue with the D800 was not getting that pinpoint critical focus due to back focus issues. I had to AF Fine Tune most lenses (I bought Reikan FoCal) and it was never accurate enough because the fine tune range on a single zoom lens used to vary between -10 to +10 basis the focal length and distance of the subject. While I own the best lenses from Nikon 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200, because of the 36MP body flaws of these autofocussing issues were evident and I got more misses than hits (not that I didn't get a lot of brilliant pictures but this was a constant pain). So when the D750 came out I ditched the 800 and bought this body and have been relatively happy with the performance. However, I do miss the resolution and the ability to crop later.

When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues. I have been tempted occasionally to just ditch the Nikon ecosystem completely and move to Sony esp with the new eye AF and entire viewfinder coverage of focus points (not a very wallet-friendly move). But, I do understand that both these systems have their own tradeoffs.

Wanted to understand from you all (the pros) if you face similar challenges and how you tackle the issue of fine-tuning different focal lengths on the same lens, are you ok to live with the sub-par focus performance. Or do you constantly use some other method to auto focus.

I was also reading that using autofocus in live view gives critical focus, is this one workaround? Is it worth the hassle for $3000 camera, shouldn't all of this be taken care of?

SurfFish · Jan 21, 2018

balidaan said:
I was also reading that using autofocus in live view gives critical focus, is this one workaround? Is it worth the hassle for $3000 camera, shouldn't all of this be taken care of?

Yes this should take of your issue in good light and non moving subject. Combine that with touch focus, silent shooting and face detect, you’ll be amazed. Indoor low light shooting will be a challenge though like my experienced with early Sony mirrorless. You can’t go wrong with any cameras these days if you know how to work around it’s weakness.

Dyun27 · Jan 21, 2018

Have you considered using primes instead? Easy to AF fine tune and sharp.

JimKasson · Jan 21, 2018

Dyun27 said:
Have you considered using primes instead? Easy to AF fine tune and sharp.

And then there's focus shift:

http://blog.kasson.com/d850/pdaf-tuning-the-nikon-105-1-4e-on-the-d850/

You have to decide for which apertures you want to optimize.

BTW, I've recently discovered that that's an issue with the a7RIII, too, in AF-S mode, but not in AF-C, after years of believing the conventional wisdom that the a7x solved that problem.

a7RIII AF-S accuracy with Zony 55/1.8 - the last word

This is a continuation of a series of posts on the Sony a7RIII. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There's a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series; just

blog.kasson.com

Jim

RDD-MS · Jan 21, 2018

I fine tune all of my lenses/cameras. Believe it or not, I enjoy doing it. I have used Focal, Nikon’s own AFFT, SpyderCal and LensAlign. It can be very frustrating when different methods yield wide results on the same camera/lens combination (all settings, lighting, distance etc.. remaining the same).

Of the methods above, I prefer the Focal system if for no other reason that I can see their beginning and after picture.

I have found that for most of my lenses/cameras they all fall between 0 & -8, rarely a positive value.

After calibrating I take a series of pictures of a resolution chart as well as a bookshelf to see how it looks to me. 99% of the time I am happy with the result.

I know it can be frustrating as we all want an absolute correct answer, but I have yet to obtain such. Always variance to some degree each time I fine tune a lens/camera.

Robert

M Lammerse · Jan 21, 2018

balidaan said:
When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues.

Where have you been reading this? and in which extend? I still own the D800 and 'enjoyed' similar experiences like you with this camera. It was checked by Nikon but in reality only the center focus points offer trusty focusing and still it's by far not as consistent as the D500 or D850 in my experience.

I've the D850 just a week in use but in relation to the D800 it's night and day difference when focusing. It's consistent and excellent, especially in darker not well or mixed l lit situations.

balidaan said:
But, I do understand that both these systems have their own tradeoffs.

Nikon will launch 2 new mirrorless camera's this year. If you have no need to change, I would wait a bit for the announcement

balidaan said:
Wanted to understand from you all (the pros) if you face similar challenges and how you tackle the issue of fine-tuning different focal lengths on the same lens,

You can't...in camera. For example Sigma offers a solution to this when you buy Sigma zoom lenses, but it changes the lens setting and not those in the camera. Meaning that if you like me using more than 1 camera have a problem when you want to swap lenses.

balidaan said:
are you ok to live with the sub-par focus performance. Or do you constantly use some other method to auto focus.

Depending on what extend..and if it's only related to front or back focusing by means of lens/camera combination and not in relation to the way the focusing system is working and by that causing problems.

balidaan said:
I was also reading that using autofocus in live view gives critical focus, is this one workaround? Is it worth the hassle for $3000 camera, shouldn't all of this be taken care of?

You should expect a camera in this part of the market to work as it is advertised (marketed.)...but again till so far the D850 is no comparison by means of focusing in relation to my D800 and I did not need to use the auto-AF fine tune yet.

Michel

Lihkin · Jan 21, 2018

balidaan said:
When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues. I have been tempted occasionally to just ditch the Nikon ecosystem completely and move to Sony esp with the new eye AF and entire viewfinder coverage of focus points (not a very wallet-friendly move). But, I do understand that both these systems have their own tradeoffs.

Where are these stories of the D850 being "plagued" with focus issues? The AF on the D850 is phenomenal and IMHO much better than the D800/ D810 series. Don't believe everything you read on the internet and let's not get dramatic. ;-)

Cheers,

--------
Nikhil

Nikhil Shahi Photography

Welcome to the website of Nikhil Shahi, a photographer based in Los Angeles, California. I specialize in landscape photography, architecture photography and portraiture.

www.nikhilshahi.com

Dyun27 · Jan 21, 2018

JimKasson said:
Dyun27 said:

Have you considered using primes instead? Easy to AF fine tune and sharp.

Click to expand...

And then there's focus shift:

http://blog.kasson.com/d850/pdaf-tuning-the-nikon-105-1-4e-on-the-d850/

You have to decide for which apertures you want to optimize.

BTW, I've recently discovered that that's an issue with the a7RIII, too, in AF-S mode, but not in AF-C, after years of believing the conventional wisdom that the a7x solved that problem.

http://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/a7riii-af-s-accuracy-with-zony-55-1-8/

Jim

JimKasson · Jan 21, 2018

Dyun27 said:
JimKasson said:

Dyun27 said:

Have you considered using primes instead? Easy to AF fine tune and sharp.

Click to expand...

And then there's focus shift:

http://blog.kasson.com/d850/pdaf-tuning-the-nikon-105-1-4e-on-the-d850/

You have to decide for which apertures you want to optimize.

BTW, I've recently discovered that that's an issue with the a7RIII, too, in AF-S mode, but not in AF-C, after years of believing the conventional wisdom that the a7x solved that problem.

http://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/a7riii-af-s-accuracy-with-zony-55-1-8/

Click to expand...

Interesting. I guess I've been lucky enough not to encounter this with my D610, D750 or D500 as far as I know.

I look forward to the curved sensor of the future that should help alleviate some of these focusing issues, especially as resolution increases.

A curved sensor will not help with focus shift, which is caused by over- or under-corrected spherical aberration, and occurs on-axis.

balidaan · Jan 21, 2018

RDD-MS said:
I fine tune all of my lenses/cameras. Believe it or not, I enjoy doing it. I have used Focal, Nikon’s own AFFT, SpyderCal and LensAlign. It can be very frustrating when different methods yield wide results on the same camera/lens combination (all settings, lighting, distance etc.. remaining the same).

Of the methods above, I prefer the Focal system if for no other reason that I can see their beginning and after picture.

I have found that for most of my lenses/cameras they all fall between 0 & -8, rarely a positive value.

After calibrating I take a series of pictures of a resolution chart as well as a bookshelf to see how it looks to me. 99% of the time I am happy with the result.

I know it can be frustrating as we all want an absolute correct answer, but I have yet to obtain such. Always variance to some degree each time I fine tune a lens/camera.

Robert

How do you make this work with zooms?

Lisperit · Jan 21, 2018

I will speak only of my D850 and my lenses so YMMV.

I changed 3 D800e to find one late batch that was good.

My D810 was fair , needed an average +5 correction with most of my lenses.

This D850 needs an average - 4 correction .

All of my lenses are finetuned , Sigmas using the dock.

Autofocus is fast , less sensible to warm light (warmlight still changes a little the finetune values you need) and it is easy to obtain critical focus using the central rows and the first two lateral rows,

The last rows on the sides will give you backfocus with some fast lenses , this changes with the lens max fstop and design. Jim kasson had a severe offcenter backfocus testing Sigma 135mm Art and my copy does the same.

I was a little sad reading Jim Kasson blog about D850 but Nikon off-sensor Pdaf has its limits, Sony garden is no much greener , AFC being far from perfect and focus shift not corrected.

Reading the posts and blog of Jim Kasson will give you a more realistic expectation of actual autofocus technology and fast lenses.

--
Lisperit

JimKasson · Jan 21, 2018

Livio Spallone said:
I will speak only of my D850 and my lenses so YMMV.

I changed 3 D800e to find one late batch that was good.

My D810 was fair , needed an average +5 correction with most of my lenses.

This D850 needs an average - 4 correction .

All of my lenses are finetuned , Sigmas using the dock.

Autofocus is fast , less sensible to warm light (warmlight still changes a little the finetune values you need)

First time I've heard of that. One more thing on my already-too-long list of things to test. I'm guessing that's because of LoCA.

Lisperit said:
and it is easy to obtain critical focus using the central rows and the first two lateral rows,

The last rows on the sides will give you backfocus with some fast lenses , this changes with the lens max fstop and design. Jim kasson had a severe offcenter backfocus testing Sigma 135mm Art and my copy does the same.

I was a little sad reading Jim Kasson blog about D850 but Nikon off-sensor Pdaf has its limits, Sony garden is no much greener , AFC being far from perfect and focus shift not corrected.

Reading the posts and blog of Jim Kasson will give you a more realistic expectation of actual autofocus technology and fast lenses.

Thanks.

It's not all roses over in a7RIII land, either, as my focus shift testing is revealing. That was a shocker to me.

Jim

Flashlight · Jan 21, 2018

JimKasson said:
Livio Spallone said:

Autofocus is fast , less sensible to warm light (warmlight still changes a little the finetune values you need)

Click to expand...

First time I've heard of that. One more thing on my already-too-long list of things to test. I'm guessing that's because of LoCA.

This is definitely true. I used to take school photos at the school of my children where I took around 6000 head shots every year, which makes a good sample set. I was shooting in the gym with strobes but I used either the halogen modeling lights at low power or the general fluorescent tubes for focusing. Every year I had to adjust AFFT from the normal daylight setting because the focus was too far backward. I typically used a D300 and 70mm @f/5.6.

--
Philip

MrHollywood · Jan 21, 2018

balidaan said:
Hi Everyone

I used to own a D800 (since then I have moved to a D750 body), my biggest issue with the D800 was not getting that pinpoint critical focus due to back focus issues. I had to AF Fine Tune most lenses (I bought Reikan FoCal) and it was never accurate enough because the fine tune range on a single zoom lens used to vary between -10 to +10 basis the focal length and distance of the subject. While I own the best lenses from Nikon 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200, because of the 36MP body flaws of these autofocussing issues were evident and I got more misses than hits (not that I didn't get a lot of brilliant pictures but this was a constant pain). So when the D750 came out I ditched the 800 and bought this body and have been relatively happy with the performance. However, I do miss the resolution and the ability to crop later.

When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues. I have been tempted occasionally to just ditch the Nikon ecosystem completely and move to Sony esp with the new eye AF and entire viewfinder coverage of focus points (not a very wallet-friendly move). But, I do understand that both these systems have their own tradeoffs.

Wanted to understand from you all (the pros) if you face similar challenges and how you tackle the issue of fine-tuning different focal lengths on the same lens, are you ok to live with the sub-par focus performance. Or do you constantly use some other method to auto focus.

I was also reading that using autofocus in live view gives critical focus, is this one workaround? Is it worth the hassle for $3000 camera, shouldn't all of this be taken care of?

There isn't a Nikon body I have not shot with and I've owned many.

The D850 AF is superb, FAR better than my D800. Like you I found the D800 AF flakey at times, but eventually got to the point where I knew how it would behave.

The D850 is nothing like it. It almost always gives me pinpoint accuracy and I'm really pleased with it. Compared to the D810, the gap is more narrowed as the D810 was a sizable bump in AF performance for me. Thus far the D850 has exceeded my expectations.

Rob

Lasse p · Jan 21, 2018

Nikkor 200-500 No fine tuning.

Nifty fifty (1.8G). No fine tuning.

I am just a pixel peeping amateur. But I am pretty satisfied with both lenses without fine tuning them.

Lasse p · Jan 21, 2018

Lasse p said:
Nikkor 200-500 No fine tuning.

Nikkor 200-500 No fine tuning.

Nifty fifty (1.8G). No fine tuning.

I am just a pixel peeping amateur. But I am pretty satisfied with both lenses without fine tuning them.

I was just made aware that my 200-500 has a front focus. It seems it may need a fine tune after all. However at closer distances, id say it does a pretty good job, getting some sharp images.

Leonard Shepherd · Jan 21, 2018

balidaan said:
I used to own a D800 (since then I have moved to a D750 body), my biggest issue with the D800 was not getting that pinpoint critical focus due to back focus issues. I had to AF Fine Tune most lenses

Either your D800 needed a service, or your testing was not to a high enough standard to get a critically accurate result.

If you had to fine tune all your lenses in the same direction the indication is the D800 needed a service.

balidaan said:
the fine tune range on a single zoom lens used to vary between -10 to +10 basis the focal length and distance of the subject.

Lenses which need fine tune generally have it in the same direction on any body.

Bodies which need fine tune generally have it in the same direction with any lens.

Widely varying results like those you describe indicate you testing technique might not be A1.

balidaan said:
So when the D750 came out I ditched the 800 and bought this body and have been relatively happy with the performance.

This reinforces a probable need for a service of the D800 body.

balidaan said:
When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues.

If you are "reading" but not experiencing focus issues with your D850 the indication is your D850 is good

If yours is good what anybody else reports is not relevant to you.

There is a myth that AF (either Nikon type) focuses 100% accurate on everything 100% of the time.

Nikon go to considerable lengths in User Manuals to explain this is not always so and what types of subjects might cause a lack of focus accuracy.

I have yet to acquire a new Nikon body or new lens that does not focus accurately when tested.

My belief is most (though not all) AF "complaints" are down to either not accepting AF (either type) is not always 100% accurate; or to not testing to a high enough standard to get a consistent reliable result.

I agree what you say indicates your D800 had a focus issue and that your D750 and now D850 do not.

I would instantly exchange any new equipment that did not have accurate AF.

In the UK and EEC there is legislation that makes this easy and straightforward.

Digressing using Nikon extensively for 19 years I have had 3 occasions when, following impact damage AF ceased to work good and one lens (a 13 year old 200-400) needed a service primarily for an AF issue.

balidaan said:
I have been tempted occasionally to just ditch the Nikon ecosystem completely and move to Sony esp with the new eye AF and entire viewfinder coverage of focus points (not a very wallet-friendly move). But, I do understand that both these systems have their own tradeoffs.

When "pushing the boundaries" of what AF can achieve in any camera system some AF failures are likely.

This aside current Nikon AF is far more accurate much more of the time with greater AF point screen coverage at much faster speeds than in the F100 era.

The tests I read indicate the Sony AF is not foolproof. Whether it better meets your needs is for you to decide.

--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than the equipment being used.

MrHollywood · Jan 21, 2018

Leonard Shepherd said:
balidaan said:

I used to own a D800 (since then I have moved to a D750 body), my biggest issue with the D800 was not getting that pinpoint critical focus due to back focus issues. I had to AF Fine Tune most lenses

Click to expand...

Either your D800 needed a service, or your testing was not to a high enough standard to get a critically accurate result.

If you had to fine tune all your lenses in the same direction the indication is the D800 needed a service.

Leonard Shepherd said:

the fine tune range on a single zoom lens used to vary between -10 to +10 basis the focal length and distance of the subject.

Click to expand...

Lenses which need fine tune generally have it in the same direction on any body.

Bodies which need fine tune generally have it in the same direction with any lens.

Widely varying results like those you describe indicate you testing technique might not be A1.

Leonard Shepherd said:

So when the D750 came out I ditched the 800 and bought this body and have been relatively happy with the performance.

Click to expand...

This reinforces a probable need for a service of the D800 body.

Leonard Shepherd said:

When I hear about the D850 I was really happy and figured I could finally upgrade to this phenomenal body. But I have been reading that the D850 is also plagued by the same issues.

Click to expand...

If you are "reading" but not experiencing focus issues with your D850 the indication is your D850 is good

If yours is good what anybody else reports is not relevant to you.

There is a myth that AF (either Nikon type) focuses 100% accurate on everything 100% of the time.

Nikon go to considerable lengths in User Manuals to explain this is not always so and what types of subjects might cause a lack of focus accuracy.

I have yet to acquire a new Nikon body or new lens that does not focus accurately when tested.

My belief is most (though not all) AF "complaints" are down to either not accepting AF (either type) is not always 100% accurate; or to not testing to a high enough standard to get a consistent reliable result.

I agree what you say indicates your D800 had a focus issue and that your D750 and now D850 do not.

I just want to say that I had no less than THREE D800's. Compared to my D300, D700, D810, D850 the D800 had an AF system was the least reliable.

AF on my D700 was very good. It almost always nailed focus where I put the point. For whatever reason the D800 would back and front focus at random. When I got the D810, I demoted the D800 to studio only. Many of my friends liked to say the D800 AF module was brain dead.

I managed to do okay with it overall, but the D810 really made me happy and this new D850 is just uncanny for AF. The D850 is so good I may not upgrade for 6 months or more! ;-)

Rob

Lihkin · Jan 21, 2018

MrHollywood said:
The D850 is so good I may not upgrade for 6 months or more! ;-)

Rob

...not upgrade for six months? Don't you know that 6 months is like 20 years in photographer years? Do you not want to come in here everyday boasting about owning the latest camera and then showing an underexposed cat photo? Tell, tell?

Cheers,

---------
Nikhil

Nikhil Shahi Photography

Welcome to the website of Nikhil Shahi, a photographer based in Los Angeles, California. I specialize in landscape photography, architecture photography and portraiture.

www.nikhilshahi.com

Leonard Shepherd · Jan 22, 2018

MrHollywood said:
I just want to say that I had no less than THREE D800's. Compared to my D300, D700, D810, D850 the D800 had an AF system was the least reliable.

If I had THREE D800's which, with proper testing, did not focus good I would abandon the model.

This aside what I hear from other D800 owners together with my own experience is that the D800 has very good AF.

D850 critical focus - is it even worth it?

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