I feel like crying whenever I look at them :-(

Panos E. Kazanelis · Sep 10, 2003

OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education" and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera... please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

BlueTiTan · Sep 10, 2003

same feeling.... :-(

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

--
http://www.i-owen.com
http://www.pbase.com/bluetitan

Larry Gleason · Sep 10, 2003

BlueTiTan said:
Panos E. Kazanelis said:

OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

Click to expand...

--
http://www.i-owen.com
http://www.pbase.com/bluetitan

--
Larry Gleason

Bob &rsun · Sep 10, 2003

....at zoos. Animals have feelings too. I know they do - I have a few as pets. I can't believe any wild animal is "happy" in a confined space, "living" on a zoo schedule.

Wild animals kept behind bars in these jails? Why? For the entertainment of humans? And some people think that humans are the superior species?
Maybe your photos will encourage a change of attitude in at least a few folks.

halwa · Sep 10, 2003

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

Daniel Coughlin · Sep 10, 2003

Once wild, now domesticated, animals kept as pets? How is that any more ethical: eating food from a bag or can, trained where to do their business, either in the confines of your home or yard. For what, the entertainment or emotional needs of humans?

How is one better than the other? With the exception that most zoos I've been to are accomodating to the animals, as much as space and $$ allows, and most homes are accomodating to people (animals second).

Just curious, sorry to post so off-topic (cameras

) so I'll say a quick,

I think the artificial lines of the photo contrast the natural animal quite nicely. It's a great shot that certainly does show emotion. Thanks for sharing (and stimulating a bit of discussion).

--
Dan
http://www.pbase.com/efatapo

Bob &rsun said:
....at zoos. Animals have feelings too. I know they do - I have a
few as pets. I can't believe any wild animal is "happy" in a
confined space, "living" on a zoo schedule.
Wild animals kept behind bars in these jails? Why? For the
entertainment of humans? And some people think that humans are the
superior species?
Maybe your photos will encourage a change of attitude in at least a
few folks.

William R Stirling · Sep 10, 2003

σας ευχαριστώ τα μέγιστα!

Thank you for your images and insight.

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

--
cheers!
Rick Stirling

Bob &rsun · Sep 10, 2003

Dan Coughlin said:
Once wild, now domesticated, animals kept as pets? How is that any
more ethical: eating food from a bag or can, trained where to do
their business, either in the confines of your home or yard. For
what, the entertainment or emotional needs of humans?

The pets in my home are treated like family members and have an emotional bond to the humans. They enjoy being a part of everything I do and are fed (as often as possible) the same foods I eat.

Daniel Coughlin said:
How is one better than the other? With the exception that most
zoos I've been to are accomodating to the animals, as much as space
and $$ allows, and most homes are accomodating to people (animals
second).

How is living only behind bars and doing everything on a zoo schedule accomodating to the animals? How is being stared at, pointed at and photographed by strangers accomodating to the animals? Did you know that some animals kept in zoos develop emotional and mental problems? Monkeys have been known to develop acute motion disorders and are unable to relax. Dolphins have been known to ram into the walls of their confines to the point of death.

If you can't tell the difference between animals kept as pets and animals kept in a zoo, there is no hope for you. Look at those photos again and tell me that the animals have been "accomodated".

Rich Gibson · Sep 10, 2003

Animal abuse is not to be tolerated under any circumstances. But the poster previous to you has a valid point. It depends on what you want to interpret as cruelty.

I don't know about you, but removing my test--les to keep me from recreating "for my own good" would not be my idea of humane treatment. If you're against animal cruelty and captivity isn't keeping a pet in a permanent puppy ( for dogs for example) state (i.e. totally dependent on humans for food and shelter) inhumane and unnatural?

The sword swings both ways. If one wants to "keep pets" it means their liberty has been curtailed and the humans assume the "alpha" role, which is not natural. Sometimes we deceive ourselves with good intentions.

Personally I see no problem owning pets as long as I treat them with kindness and keep them healthy. But I do realize anything less than running free in the wild is unnatural. I don't think the poster "has no hope." I thnk he's asking us to look in the mirror.

In the end though, they're animals, not humans. Some folks seem to have difficulty distinguishing the difference.

Regards, Rich

Bob &rsun said:
If you can't tell the difference between animals kept as pets and
animals kept in a zoo, there is no hope for you. Look at those
photos again and tell me that the animals have been "accomodated".

bartP · Sep 10, 2003

Animals weren't born to be caged.

It's sad how people can say about other people: you are like an animal! And that's never meant like a compliment. How would this world be if we all would act like animals? Probably better.
Nothing soft about that.

Frantz Dantzler · Sep 10, 2003

Well said. I have the same problem of photographing at zoos, so I don't. It's like visiting an animal prison in many respects. And the worst of it is what happens to them when and where you can't see, such as off-season (winter) care, facilities and other ethical issues.

Bob &rsun said:
Dan Coughlin said:

Once wild, now domesticated, animals kept as pets? How is that any
more ethical: eating food from a bag or can, trained where to do
their business, either in the confines of your home or yard. For
what, the entertainment or emotional needs of humans?

Click to expand...

The pets in my home are treated like family members and have an
emotional bond to the humans. They enjoy being a part of
everything I do and are fed (as often as possible) the same foods I
eat.

Bob &rsun said:

How is one better than the other? With the exception that most
zoos I've been to are accomodating to the animals, as much as space
and $$ allows, and most homes are accomodating to people (animals
second).

Click to expand...

How is living only behind bars and doing everything on a zoo
schedule accomodating to the animals? How is being stared at,
pointed at and photographed by strangers accomodating to the
animals? Did you know that some animals kept in zoos develop
emotional and mental problems? Monkeys have been known to develop
acute motion disorders and are unable to relax. Dolphins have been
known to ram into the walls of their confines to the point of death.
If you can't tell the difference between animals kept as pets and
animals kept in a zoo, there is no hope for you. Look at those
photos again and tell me that the animals have been "accomodated".

--
I may be slow, but I do poor work.

Bob &rsun · Sep 10, 2003

Rich Gibson said:
Animal abuse is not to be tolerated under any circumstances. But
the poster previous to you has a valid point.

I'm not sure what his "point" is but he seems to think there is no difference between keeping animals as pets and keeping animals in a zoo.

Member said:
I don't know about you, but removing my test--les to keep me from
recreating "for my own good" would not be my idea of humane
treatment. If you're against animal cruelty and captivity isn't
keeping a pet in a permanent puppy ( for dogs for example) state
(i.e. totally dependent on humans for food and shelter) inhumane
and unnatural?

None of my pets have had any organs removed.

Member said:
In the end though, they're animals, not humans. Some folks seem to
have difficulty distinguishing the difference.

Some people have difficulty realizing that animals are also highly intelligent and emotional creatures.

There is a big difference between keeping a pet in a loving home and keeping wild animals in a zoo.

ktvd · Sep 10, 2003

Rich,

In our neck of the woods, liberty means SOMETHING IS GONNA EAT YOU. It's just a matter of time. Living in the wild is stressful.

My pets would much rather lead the life of protected luxury than struggle for survival in the wild.

And yes, I've shed a tear or two over the conditions I've seen in some zoos.

ktvd

Rich Gibson said:
The sword swings both ways. If one wants to "keep pets" it means
their liberty has been curtailed and the humans assume the "alpha"
role, which is not natural. Sometimes we deceive ourselves with
good intentions.

Mike Sommers · Sep 10, 2003

Hiya Folks,

Sorry to chime in with some reality, but here goes....

Most people who work in zoos are animal lovers who have dedicated their lives to protecting and preserving animals and their habitats. They typically don't get paid very much, yet volunteer their spare time to educating the rest of us on how to live in peace with the pelted, winged, gilled and scaled inhabitants of our planet.

Most animals that end up in zoos are there for their own safety. They have either been rescued from injury or are at risk of extinction due to the depletion of their natural habitat. Some are born in captivity to parents that fit the description above, and are raised to (hopefully) live on their own in the wild some day (if conditions permit).

If you talk to people who work in zoos, you will find very few who think that caging animals for the sake of entertaining humans is a good thing.

Most of the profits from zoos are used to support animal rights causes, like preserving natural habitats and punishing poachers.

Very nice photo, by the way.

Mike

bartP said:
Animals weren't born to be caged.
It's sad how people can say about other people: you are like an
animal! And that's never meant like a compliment. How would this
world be if we all would act like animals? Probably better.
Nothing soft about that.

Mitchydkid · Sep 10, 2003

Mike Sommers said:
Sorry to chime in with some reality, but here goes....

Most people who work in zoos are animal lovers who have dedicated
their lives to protecting and preserving animals and their
habitats. They typically don't get paid very much, yet volunteer
their spare time to educating the rest of us on how to live in
peace with the pelted, winged, gilled and scaled inhabitants of our
planet.

Most animals that end up in zoos are there for their own safety.
They have either been rescued from injury or are at risk of
extinction due to the depletion of their natural habitat. Some are
born in captivity to parents that fit the description above, and
are raised to (hopefully) live on their own in the wild some day
(if conditions permit).

If you talk to people who work in zoos, you will find very few who
think that caging animals for the sake of entertaining humans is a
good thing.

Most of the profits from zoos are used to support animal rights
causes, like preserving natural habitats and punishing poachers.

Very nice photo, by the way.

Mike

bartP said:

Animals weren't born to be caged.
It's sad how people can say about other people: you are like an
animal! And that's never meant like a compliment. How would this
world be if we all would act like animals? Probably better.
Nothing soft about that.

Click to expand...

Mike,

very well said. While I am glad to see people search for moral high ground, often we see people who jump to conclusions because of a sad face. Hey, maybe the monkey is sad because he doesn't like the composition of your shot; or maybe he is upset you dodged that hand full of poo he threw at you. Ok, enough kidding. Many zoos do good things, while I have seen some in Mexico that made me want to kill the people who put a huge cat in a tiny, and I mean only big enough to walk in a 4' circle, box. So, lets all remember to be objective about a situation before we make a judgement.

Also, as far as pets go, the same apply. Some pets are held captive and mistreated just so a person can have something to love or worse, something to bet on in a fight. On the other hand, I know people who have had animals adopt THEM. Yes, I've seen several cases where a cat or dog just "shows up" and before long, the animal has new care giver. Often, pets love the people they live with and become depressed when the human is at work. It works both ways.

So, what we want is for the animal abusers and misusers to be delt with. Lets just make sure we know who is and who is not hurting the animals.

iLuminatae · Sep 10, 2003

I was going to pipe in and say my piece but since you already covered most of what I was thinking I will say thanks Mike.

One other thing you forgot to mention was the educational factor zoo's bring to the public at large. Generally the public as a group are ignorant when it comes to matters of habitat, animal populations, species at risk of extinction etc. Zoo's provide a way of educating the public on these issues and have been succesfull in bringing this awareness to the political level when dealing with international agreements. ie The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES)

Without zoo's would most people care or even be aware of the plight of panda bears? How about the Rhino, elephants, polar bears, baluga whales, dolphins, all the lil frogs and amphibians from tropical rainforests, etc etc. This list can go on and on.

And I do agree the are nice pictures.

Mike Sommers said:
Hiya Folks,

Sorry to chime in with some reality, but here goes....

Most people who work in zoos are animal lovers who have dedicated
their lives to protecting and preserving animals and their
habitats. They typically don't get paid very much, yet volunteer
their spare time to educating the rest of us on how to live in
peace with the pelted, winged, gilled and scaled inhabitants of our
planet.

Most animals that end up in zoos are there for their own safety.
They have either been rescued from injury or are at risk of
extinction due to the depletion of their natural habitat. Some are
born in captivity to parents that fit the description above, and
are raised to (hopefully) live on their own in the wild some day
(if conditions permit).

If you talk to people who work in zoos, you will find very few who
think that caging animals for the sake of entertaining humans is a
good thing.

Most of the profits from zoos are used to support animal rights
causes, like preserving natural habitats and punishing poachers.

Very nice photo, by the way.

Mike

stephanie butchin · Sep 11, 2003

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

I don't believe in zoos, but i did take my children when they were small, they too were upset to see the animals caged. We've never been again. I believe the public should be educated as to the plight of our wildlife, but zoos are not the answer. These animals should be able to run free. In this day and age we should have come up with an answer by now. Education is the key. I watched my 10 yr old spend at least 5 min. trying to catch a grasshopper that was on the basketball court so he could release it to the grassy area, far from harm. As I said, education and also compassion are the keys.

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

Estuardo · Sep 11, 2003

The snipped portions says it all (IMO).

That said, I wonder what the original poster would have to say about the baby human beings being killed (murdered) under the guise of "family planning", "convience", "choice", and so forth.

But then would one expect any less from a society that permits such an action?

Rich Gibson wrote:
snip

Member said:
In the end though, they're animals, not humans. Some folks seem to
have difficulty distinguishing the difference.

Regards, Rich

snip

rick porter · Sep 11, 2003

You can see it & feel it as well.

gregharris73 · Sep 11, 2003

Great post. Many animals I think are actually perfectly happy in zoos. But I get a really queezy feeling in my stomach especially when I see apes or monkeys, some others as well. I swear, I've witnessed depression on their faces. Your photos illustrate perfectly.

greg

Panos E. Kazanelis said:
OK, you may call me softy or touchy but when I look at this photo I
get very emotional and lots of mixed feelings...

Maybe this is an ethical issue, but for the shake of "education"
and "entertainment" we -humans- seem to neglect the fact that we
have strong bonds with animals.

I've traveled a lot taking photos -from Europe to Africa, the US
and Autralia- and I felt a LOT BETTER to shoot in their native
environment
-even if I was a trespasser- rather than watching them in cages...

Felt like saying "...hey, you there! yes yes YOU with the camera...
please tell the world I AM NOT HAPPY HERE...!!!..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196399&exif=Y

or

"...are you looking at something you ever wished it would happen to
YOU...???..."
http://www.pbase.com/image/21196386&exif=Y

--
Panos

I feel like crying whenever I look at them :-(

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