Tested A7riii and it has really bad banding with silent shooting, is this normal?

EcoR1 said:

I have Philips HUE rgb leds and it’s imbossible to use silent shutter with them. There are multiple leds inside the bulb and each one of them is most likely using different PWM frequency depending on selected overall color/brightness level. Even if the color is set to white, you will always see banding.

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EcoR1 said:

I haven’t done any extensive testing with SS off with my a7s, because I haven’t ever noticed any problems with regular shutter. I have owned a7s for couple of years now and I probably would have noticed if some banding occured.

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Entropy512 said:

Mcnovy said:

Entropy512 said:

Mcnovy said:

Hey,

Sorry if I am stealing this thread.

I have Philips Hue lights and live in the EU (50Hz)

I have banding issues, at several shutter speeds, with both silent shooting on and off.
have also tried single shot, and continues (where I see different banding)

Is this normal, or is there some setting I have messed up.?
I thought this issue was only related to Silent Shooting mode.
I have not had this problem before with my DSLR.

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Philips Hue uses PWM dimming that is NOT at line frequency I'm 90% certain.

I don't know what frequency they DO use. At least some quick Googling implies they are operating at a fairly low PWM frequency that has led to complaints including eye strain.

Also what shutter speed are you running at? Even with mechanical shutter you risk seeing banding at very high shutter speeds.

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Here are a few samples.


SS OFF - 1/50

At this setting, it is mostly not visible (might depend on the amount of lights on, We have HUE everywhere)


SS ON - 1/50

SS ON - Very clear banding


SS OFF - 1/60

Possible same result as 1/50


SS ON - 1/60

Clear banding


SS OFF - 1/100

Banding, but at a different frequency it seems. (only 4'ish yellowish lines across the frame)


SS ON - 1/100

Clear banding, similar to 1/50 and 1/60


SS OFF - 1/2000

Same banding frequency as 1/100, but way more visible


SS ON - 1/2000

Same frequency as 1/50 - 1/60 - 1/100, but more visible.

But can anyone confirm that this is the expected behavior, or if there might be an issue with the body?

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Is that an RGB hue or a white-only Hue? The major changes in color in your latest images make it look like it's an RGB with different PWM lengths for each cycle.

I won't be able to run some tests until after the new year. Interestingly, I've been wanting to make a testbed for shutter rates, this is more of a reason to do so. I need to also figure out something to attach a photosensor to a scope to figure out the frequencies of various lighting.

I suspect you don't have an issue with the camera but you've identified one of those corner cases where probably any camera will perform poorly.

In fact the problem here might be that the PWM frequency is fairly high, and if they are RGB Hue lights, the color is going to change very significantly throughout each PWM cycle.

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nomnomnom said:

EcoR1 said:

I haven’t done any extensive testing with SS off with my a7s, because I haven’t ever noticed any problems with regular shutter. I have owned a7s for couple of years now and I probably would have noticed if some banding occured.

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actually you are right! I've shot with the a7sii and I don't think I've noticed it although I haven't tested with this specific light setup.

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nomnomnom said:

How could it be that the a7riii is unique to this??

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nomnomnom said:

Mcnovy said:

Michael1000 said:

Does this banding show up in video, too?

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Yes,

My upload speeds are very slow, so no sample though.

But Recording with shutter priority and changing the shutter speeds, it is very visible.

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wait what? This is a problem with video as well?? I shoot videos at 1/60.

How do other people get around this? I plan to shoot a lot of indoor videos of kids etc. I don't understand how is this not a problem for more people? Am I missing something?

How do other cameras get around it? Or is this pretty much every camera except for the A9?

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​

JimKasson said:

Entropy512 said:

Interestingly, I've been wanting to make a testbed for shutter rates, this is more of a reason to do so. I need to also figure out something to attach a photosensor to a scope to figure out the frequencies of various lighting.

Click to expand...

I can help you with the first part. Here's what I do:

1. Attach a function generator to the vertical input of an analog scope (this won't work with a digital one).
2. Set the generator to sine or triangle.
3. Set the frequency of the generator to 1 Mhz or so. (You just want it high, so there are many cycles across the screen).
4. Set the peak-to-peak amplitude of the generator to about 1.2 to 1.5 full scale on the scope, so you can't see the peaks.
5. Set the timebase on the scope so that it moves 4 or 5 divisions in the expected shutter scan time.
6. Take 10 or so pictures of the scope with the camera under test.
7. Find one with the scan approximately centered.
8. Measure the scan time by counting horizontal divisions

Jim

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Mcnovy said:

It is RGB, but the light temperatur/color is the same throughout the samples.
Might be auto white balance that is messed up (It reads about half the picture, so auto white balance would be difficult I guess)

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russbarnes said:

russbarnes said:

Yarik85 said:

nomnomnom said:

russbarnes said:

This is the effect of LED lighting. Does Sony not have a flicker reduction mode?

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It cannot be enabled while in silent shutter mode. Or maybe I'm missing something, not sure...just got the camera

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From what I've read in the manual, no you cannot enable anti-flicker in Silent Shutter mode.

But could you do me a favor, and try Silent Shutter at 1/60 shutter speed, and at 1/125 (both of these if you're in US), or if you're in Europe, try 1/50, and 1/100, and see if the banding is still there at those shutter speeds. Could even try 1/250 (in US), and 1/200 (in Europe) if you get a chance.

Would love to hear your results.

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Oooo I need to give this a go too. Makes perfect sense that there would be a speed this trick works at.

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Just gave that a go. I have Silent Live View shooting on my D850 - I'm in the UK. 1/200 is a big fail, but 1/100 and 1/50 worked fantastically well. Thanks very much for this, it's a superb bit of information.

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Musashi1205 said:

russbarnes said:

russbarnes said:

Yarik85 said:

nomnomnom said:

russbarnes said:

This is the effect of LED lighting. Does Sony not have a flicker reduction mode?

Click to expand...

It cannot be enabled while in silent shutter mode. Or maybe I'm missing something, not sure...just got the camera

Click to expand...

From what I've read in the manual, no you cannot enable anti-flicker in Silent Shutter mode.

But could you do me a favor, and try Silent Shutter at 1/60 shutter speed, and at 1/125 (both of these if you're in US), or if you're in Europe, try 1/50, and 1/100, and see if the banding is still there at those shutter speeds. Could even try 1/250 (in US), and 1/200 (in Europe) if you get a chance.

Would love to hear your results.

Click to expand...

Oooo I need to give this a go too. Makes perfect sense that there would be a speed this trick works at.

Click to expand...

Just gave that a go. I have Silent Live View shooting on my D850 - I'm in the UK. 1/200 is a big fail, but 1/100 and 1/50 worked fantastically well. Thanks very much for this, it's a superb bit of information.

Click to expand...

Jep, same here inGermany. 1/200 no good, but 1/100 and 1/50 perfectly fine. Nice point, didn’t think of our 50 Hz flickering...

Click to expand...

nomnomnom said:

Musashi1205 said:

russbarnes said:

russbarnes said:

Yarik85 said:

nomnomnom said:

russbarnes said:

This is the effect of LED lighting. Does Sony not have a flicker reduction mode?

Click to expand...

It cannot be enabled while in silent shutter mode. Or maybe I'm missing something, not sure...just got the camera

Click to expand...

From what I've read in the manual, no you cannot enable anti-flicker in Silent Shutter mode.

But could you do me a favor, and try Silent Shutter at 1/60 shutter speed, and at 1/125 (both of these if you're in US), or if you're in Europe, try 1/50, and 1/100, and see if the banding is still there at those shutter speeds. Could even try 1/250 (in US), and 1/200 (in Europe) if you get a chance.

Would love to hear your results.

Click to expand...

Oooo I need to give this a go too. Makes perfect sense that there would be a speed this trick works at.

Click to expand...

Just gave that a go. I have Silent Live View shooting on my D850 - I'm in the UK. 1/200 is a big fail, but 1/100 and 1/50 worked fantastically well. Thanks very much for this, it's a superb bit of information.

Click to expand...

Jep, same here inGermany. 1/200 no good, but 1/100 and 1/50 perfectly fine. Nice point, didn’t think of our 50 Hz flickering...

Click to expand...

but what if you are shooting human where you need faster than 1/100?

Click to expand...

nomnomnom said:

Musashi1205 said:

russbarnes said:

russbarnes said:

Yarik85 said:

nomnomnom said:

russbarnes said:

This is the effect of LED lighting. Does Sony not have a flicker reduction mode?

Click to expand...

It cannot be enabled while in silent shutter mode. Or maybe I'm missing something, not sure...just got the camera

Click to expand...

From what I've read in the manual, no you cannot enable anti-flicker in Silent Shutter mode.

But could you do me a favor, and try Silent Shutter at 1/60 shutter speed, and at 1/125 (both of these if you're in US), or if you're in Europe, try 1/50, and 1/100, and see if the banding is still there at those shutter speeds. Could even try 1/250 (in US), and 1/200 (in Europe) if you get a chance.

Would love to hear your results.

Click to expand...

Oooo I need to give this a go too. Makes perfect sense that there would be a speed this trick works at.

Click to expand...

Just gave that a go. I have Silent Live View shooting on my D850 - I'm in the UK. 1/200 is a big fail, but 1/100 and 1/50 worked fantastically well. Thanks very much for this, it's a superb bit of information.

Click to expand...

Jep, same here inGermany. 1/200 no good, but 1/100 and 1/50 perfectly fine. Nice point, didn’t think of our 50 Hz flickering...

Click to expand...

but what if you are shooting human where you need faster than 1/100?

Click to expand...