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Pen F autofocus vs. OM-D E-M1 (either version)

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I photographed the installation of our new pastor earlier this month. I used my Pen F and the M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 Pro from a tripod in the back of the sanctuary. Ambient light was a little low; my average exposure was around 1/80, f/2.8, ISO 2000. My AF mode was face+eye.

When plowing through all of the photos, about 400 in total, I noticed a high percentage of poorly focused shots. Some had the subject eyes razor sharp, about 50%-60% missed focus on the face at all. There wasn't a lot of movement by the subjects, it just seems AF missed a lot. I'm talking about shots where the full face was in view, so face+eye AF should have been working OK.

I am well-aware that my Pen F is not a low-light AF monster, so...

My Question: Does the E-M1 (either version) use the PDAF AF points to good advantage in a situation like this to get a higher in-focus percentage? Or are the E-M1 cameras just plain better at lower light AF than the Pen F? Is Eye-AF reliable on Olympus cameras? Am I expecting too much for face+eye AF at 40 feet with the lens wide open?

I'm going to be doing a bit more of this type of photography. I'm trying to decide if my Pen F needs to sit out those events in favor of a more pro-oriented body. I like the 20Mp sensor, but I'm entirely willing to look at a good copy of the original E-M1.


Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA
Life is good in the woods
 
Solution
J
I have both a Pen F and the E-M1 Mark II. I find it hard to quantify the difference in autofocus performance, but I do think the E-M1 Mark II AF performance is much better than the Pen-F, both in single shot and especially continuous AF. (Plus, I think high ISO is about 1/3-1/2 stop better.) When I find myself going into a situation you describe (low light, tricky AF) I bring the E-M1 Mark II.
Pen f has the perchance of locking on to out of focus areas and allowing the shutter to release. It's the curse of the pen f even in s-af mode. Some times a settings reset will fix it but eventually it will fire on out of focus lock even though in the settings you've set it not to.
 
Manual Focus. f/5.6
 
James,

I can't speak to the Pen F, since I don't own one. However, I can say that I think your main problem is shooting at f2.8. My experience is that the DOF is often just too shallow (yes, to the dismay of all shallow DOF lovers).

If you are using face/eye detection with multiple subjects, they are rarely in the same focus plane, and at f/2.8 some are going to be OOF. I have much better success shooting at f/3.5-f/4, and find I have very few that are not in focus. Of course with larger groups I stop down even more to f/5.6-f/8.

I find that face/eye detection on my E-M1 is very accurate when shooting close up portraits (e.g. Head and Shoulders) -- the further you get away from subjects the more difficult it is to get perfect focus -- however, it is still generally very close.

Your percentage of OOF shots sounds very high to me, and I really think shooting at f/4 and ISO 3200 would have given you a much higher in-focus percentage.
 
daddyo said:
James,

I can't speak to the Pen F, since I don't own one. However, I can say that I think your main problem is shooting at f2.8. My experience is that the DOF is often just too shallow (yes, to the dismay of all shallow DOF lovers).

If you are using face/eye detection with multiple subjects, they are rarely in the same focus plane, and at f/2.8 some are going to be OOF. I have much better success shooting at f/3.5-f/4, and find I have very few that are not in focus. Of course with larger groups I stop down even more to f/5.6-f/8.

I find that face/eye detection on my E-M1 is very accurate when shooting close up portraits (e.g. Head and Shoulders) -- the further you get away from subjects the more difficult it is to get perfect focus -- however, it is still generally very close.

Your percentage of OOF shots sounds very high to me, and I really think shooting at f/4 and ISO 3200 would have given you a much higher in-focus percentage.
Click to expand...
 
As a recent upgrader from an older E-PL model to the PEN, I thought it might be worth registering and bringing up my recent focussing woes here, in case others are having the same problem.

90% of my shots are done in A mode with centre point focussing (reframing as needed). I’m an amateur, a left eye shooter, and I mainly use the viewfinder.

I tried to set up the PEN's A mode as for my earlier cameras. Hideous focus mayhem ensued. Sometimes good, usually bad. Thing was, that danged focus rectangle kept moving. The camera would wake up with it in the wrong place too. So I had to keep diving in and reset to centre point focus. In the middle of picture-taking.

Now I may be a little slow on the uptake, but after a few weeks I realised that my nose was pressing onto the live touchscreen and resetting the focus position! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

So, I hunted deep into the menus to turn off focal positioning by touch. Oh joy! Photos could now be taken as expected with centre point focussing.

Except that, from time to time, focussing mayhem would recur, with the focal point wandering about and I had to again dive in the menus and reset to centre point.

More weeks passed. And then I eventually realised that there was a live touchscreen icon to lower left that can switch touchy focus point adjustment on and off. Could this be the culprit? It was! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

I am now the proud owner of a PEN-F that is taking the sort of pictures that I hoped it was capable of. I have, though, paid for a sophisticated touch screen that is permanently turned off and therefore utterly useless.

The E-M1 has a central and more rearly-protruding eyepiece and, therefore, depending on the enormity - and the subtended angle - of one’s nose, most E-M1 shooters are less likely but perhaps not immune from having the same nasal focussing action that I unwittingly experienced. Ditto E-M10. If any readers are having weird focussing issues, maybe check what your proboscis is getting up to when you are not paying attention?
 
I have both a Pen F and the E-M1 Mark II. I find it hard to quantify the difference in autofocus performance, but I do think the E-M1 Mark II AF performance is much better than the Pen-F, both in single shot and especially continuous AF. (Plus, I think high ISO is about 1/3-1/2 stop better.) When I find myself going into a situation you describe (low light, tricky AF) I bring the E-M1 Mark II.
 
Solution
I'm more leery of the shutter speed than focus accuracy, but confess without distance to subject and focal length it's hard to parse what's occurring here. Definitely agree with floating the ISO and IMHO not opening the lens but raising shutter speed.

If there's a better m4/3 for focus response and accuracy than the M1ii I should like to try it. Still learning mine and am happily surprised regularly by what it can accomplish.

Cheers,

Rick
 
daddyo said:
James,

I can't speak to the Pen F, since I don't own one. However, I can say that I think your main problem is shooting at f2.8. My experience is that the DOF is often just too shallow (yes, to the dismay of all shallow DOF lovers).

If you are using face/eye detection with multiple subjects, they are rarely in the same focus plane, and at f/2.8 some are going to be OOF. I have much better success shooting at f/3.5-f/4, and find I have very few that are not in focus. Of course with larger groups I stop down even more to f/5.6-f/8.

I find that face/eye detection on my E-M1 is very accurate when shooting close up portraits (e.g. Head and Shoulders) -- the further you get away from subjects the more difficult it is to get perfect focus -- however, it is still generally very close.

Your percentage of OOF shots sounds very high to me, and I really think shooting at f/4 and ISO 3200 would have given you a much higher in-focus percentage.
Click to expand...
 
Problem with CDAF is that it has no information is the contrast blur or not. That is where DFD comes to play, check focus from blur.

A high contrast blur is high contrast and can be mistaken for focus being correct.
 
I have both the Pen F and the E-M1ii. The Pen's AF is notably worse:

- Struggles in bad light

- Completely useless in CAF

However, in half decent light using SAF I find it to be very reliable with an almost 100% hit rate. If it shows lock, then it'll be in focus.

I'd be surprised if DOF is an issue if you were shooting from the rear of an auditorium. If it were me, I'd do some controlled testing with the pressure off to get to the bottom of it.

--
Paul
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/paul_kaye
 
Last edited:
ABitGrainy said:
As a recent upgrader from an older E-PL model to the PEN, I thought it might be worth registering and bringing up my recent focussing woes here, in case others are having the same problem.

90% of my shots are done in A mode with centre point focussing (reframing as needed). I’m an amateur, a left eye shooter, and I mainly use the viewfinder.

I tried to set up the PEN's A mode as for my earlier cameras. Hideous focus mayhem ensued. Sometimes good, usually bad. Thing was, that danged focus rectangle kept moving. The camera would wake up with it in the wrong place too. So I had to keep diving in and reset to centre point focus. In the middle of picture-taking.

Now I may be a little slow on the uptake, but after a few weeks I realised that my nose was pressing onto the live touchscreen and resetting the focus position! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

So, I hunted deep into the menus to turn off focal positioning by touch. Oh joy! Photos could now be taken as expected with centre point focussing.

Except that, from time to time, focussing mayhem would recur, with the focal point wandering about and I had to again dive in the menus and reset to centre point.

More weeks passed. And then I eventually realised that there was a live touchscreen icon to lower left that can switch touchy focus point adjustment on and off. Could this be the culprit? It was! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

I am now the proud owner of a PEN-F that is taking the sort of pictures that I hoped it was capable of. I have, though, paid for a sophisticated touch screen that is permanently turned off and therefore utterly useless.
Click to expand...
Why not practice using the touch screen as it was intended to be used? With your eye to the vf you can move the focus point with your thumb, no need to focus in the centre and then recompose. That fraction of a second might save a shot for you.
ABitGrainy said:
The E-M1 has a central and more rearly-protruding eyepiece and, therefore, depending on the enormity - and the subtended angle - of one’s nose, most E-M1 shooters are less likely but perhaps not immune from having the same nasal focussing action that I unwittingly experienced. Ditto E-M10. If any readers are having weird focussing issues, maybe check what your proboscis is getting up to when you are not paying attention?
Click to expand...
 
I own both of these cameras (E-M1 mark I, Pen F + E-M5 II).

CAF on Pen F is close to useless. Contrast detection in a lower light is the slowest on Pen F but the difference is not huge.

Anyways if you need far superior AF in bad light rather get a Panasonic camera. GX8 AF speed and accuracy is amazing. By the way I'm waiting for GX9. This camera will become my main camera (and yes mainly for its superior AF accuracy compared to Olympus cameras but also for other features like their great implementation of touch AF).

Cheers
 
Last edited:
yellodog said:
ABitGrainy said:
As a recent upgrader from an older E-PL model to the PEN, I thought it might be worth registering and bringing up my recent focussing woes here, in case others are having the same problem.

90% of my shots are done in A mode with centre point focussing (reframing as needed). I’m an amateur, a left eye shooter, and I mainly use the viewfinder.

I tried to set up the PEN's A mode as for my earlier cameras. Hideous focus mayhem ensued. Sometimes good, usually bad. Thing was, that danged focus rectangle kept moving. The camera would wake up with it in the wrong place too. So I had to keep diving in and reset to centre point focus. In the middle of picture-taking.

Now I may be a little slow on the uptake, but after a few weeks I realised that my nose was pressing onto the live touchscreen and resetting the focus position! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

So, I hunted deep into the menus to turn off focal positioning by touch. Oh joy! Photos could now be taken as expected with centre point focussing.

Except that, from time to time, focussing mayhem would recur, with the focal point wandering about and I had to again dive in the menus and reset to centre point.

More weeks passed. And then I eventually realised that there was a live touchscreen icon to lower left that can switch touchy focus point adjustment on and off. Could this be the culprit? It was! Don’t ask me to describe the nose motions needed to confirm this.

I am now the proud owner of a PEN-F that is taking the sort of pictures that I hoped it was capable of. I have, though, paid for a sophisticated touch screen that is permanently turned off and therefore utterly useless.
Click to expand...
Why not practice using the touch screen as it was intended to be used? With your eye to the vf you can move the focus point with your thumb, no need to focus in the centre and then recompose. That fraction of a second might save a shot for you.
yellodog said:
The E-M1 has a central and more rearly-protruding eyepiece and, therefore, depending on the enormity - and the subtended angle - of one’s nose, most E-M1 shooters are less likely but perhaps not immune from having the same nasal focussing action that I unwittingly experienced. Ditto E-M10. If any readers are having weird focussing issues, maybe check what your proboscis is getting up to when you are not paying attention?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
As a left eye shooter, I can relate to the “nose focusing” dilemma experienced by Grainy. Right eye shooters will not experience this, but of course their noses are now exposed to oncoming traffic, and do not benefit from the protection of the strong Pen F body.
 
Dunsun said:
I own both of these cameras (E-M1 mark I, Pen F + E-M5 II).

CAF on Pen F is close to useless. Contrast detection in a lower light is the slowest on Pen F but the difference is not huge.

Anyways if you need far superior AF in bad light rather get a Panasonic camera. GX8 AF speed and accuracy is amazing. By the way I'm waiting for GX9. This camera will become my main camera (and yes mainly for its superior AF accuracy compared to Olympus cameras but also for other features like their great implementation of touch AF).
Click to expand...
Hello Dunsun,

All of the noise about Panasonic AF seems to be this DFD stuff. Is that in play when an Olympus lens is on, say, a G9?


Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA
Life is good in the woods
 
pdk42 said:
I'd be surprised if DOF is an issue if you were shooting from the rear of an auditorium. If it were me, I'd do some controlled testing with the pressure off to get to the bottom of it.
Click to expand...
Hello Paul,

Yes, off-line testing is on my agenda.

I was generally trying to get the face of one person at a time, so differing distances from the camera by multiple people was not a problem and would not bother me. Like you, I believe DOF should not be an issue from 45 feet when all I want is the eyes/face in focus. A couple of folks in this thread have suggested shutter speed my be the issue. I was shooting from a tripod between 1/60 and 1/125 most of the time and timing my shots for a pause in the action. And I can tell the difference between missed focus and blur due to subject movement. I did not count subject movement failures (only a few) in my percentage of missed AF shots.

So, yes, I need to get into the sanctuary and shoot some events where the outcome is not important to anyone.

And to be sure, I got some great photos with my Pen F and M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 Pro. It's not like the day was a failure. I would have liked a higher hit rate is all.


Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA
Life is good in the woods
 
We left-eye shooters do have a non-trivial issue with our noses on the rear LCD. The situation is most pronounced on cameras like the Pen F where the viewfinder is on the left side of the camera.

I also turned off all touch capability on my Pen F. Additionally, I generally have the LCD turned inward becasue I use the EVF almost exclusively unless my Pen F is on a tripod. I'm not prone to chimping, so having the LCD turned inward is not an inconvenience for me.


Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA
Life is good in the woods
 
Just a suggestion. For these type of shots is it possible to go old school and bring in a tripod, use low ISO, smaller aperture. Then try to position people so they are all in the same lateral plane so focus, manual might be preferred, is all or nothing. Of course if a tripod is verboten then ignore the above 😃
 
Albert Valentino said:
Just a suggestion. For these type of shots is it possible to go old school and bring in a tripod, use low ISO, smaller aperture. Then try to position people so they are all in the same lateral plane so focus, manual might be preferred, is all or nothing. Of course if a tripod is verboten then ignore the above 😃
Click to expand...
Understood. If I were in control of the situation, that is almost exactly what I would do, including setting up some lighting if at all possible. In this case, I was little more than a fly on the wall who happens to own Olympus gear and Gitzo tripods.

Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA
Life is good in the woods
 
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