What to save? RAW vs. ?

One also has to consider whether or not proprietary file formats
such as .CRW will be readable in, say, 20 years when they have long
since been discarded. Tiff is less likely to sufer from this.
This point has been repeatedly raised and answered. The answer is
to put a copy of the RAW conversion program on the backup disk.
Windows is as likely to existing in the future as long as the TIFF
format is.
Its an answer that's repeatedly offered but it's weak. Backward compatibility is an ideal more than a reality once you span more than a couple of releases of a rapidly-changing O/S. Re-loading and using old software is usually a major grind if it works at all.
Another answer is that any form of responsible digital archiving
involves periodically moving your archives to more modern media.
(Floppies to CDR to DVDR, etc.) This is also a real good time to
evaluate the suitablilty of any formats and decide if any
additional conversion is warrented.
Reality check number two: few photographers will ever do a mass conversion of raw files to some other (probably proprietary) format. It's likely not practical due to the effort required, nor is it likely to be useful (see below). Update your storage media? Of course, regardless of the file formats you use.
But the bottom line is that a TIFF file holds less information than
a RAW file. Saving the TIFFs and discarding the RAW files is more
like like saving your prints and throwing your negatives away.
Reality check number three: this implies that the photographer will re-process from .crw to some new format, and discard his/her tiffs, simply because .crw contains "more information". This is a technically correct definition of information, but its real-world relevance is limited. The additional information needs to be useful, not just present, to make re-processing worthwhile. If the processed tiff is commercial quality to begin with re-extraction will rarely be useful.

At the most this would justify saving raw files for a few exceptional images which might in future warrant re-processing from scratch to extract newly-visible information not contained in the (presumably outmoded) tiff. Ansel Adams might have had a couple of those, but I doubt I ever will.

So the actual bottom line is, most of us will rarely or never return to raw files in favor of our already extensively-processed tiffs. Conclusion? process your tiffs carefully, archive them carefully, and if you keep your raw files at all, do so for paranoia purposes only.

--
Slane
 
As a former CP/M owner, I have to wonder at the wisdom of this
assumption.
I'm also a former CP/M user and I still have copies of (originally CP/M but ported to MS/DOS) WordStar, DataStar and SuperSort. And Visicalc. All work just fine on my XP system. As do pretty much any mid 1980s era MS/DOS software. If not natively in XP, then in VMWare Virtual Machines.

I was using WordStar just yesterday to do a quick ASCII file edit. It works great. My own personal address list application is DataStar based, well, because I never found any compelling reason to do a newer one.

O/S changes do not happen instantly. You always have plenty of time to migrate data over, if needed. But CP/M -> MS/DOS -> Windows stuff mostly didn't need to be migrated, because it is still mostly compatible.

Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
Chris Butler
I agree, all you have to do is save a duplicate or triplicate copy
of your converter along with your RAW files & you should never be
without a converter.
 
(Drastically trimmed due to DPreview post size limit. See previous posts for the complete texts.)

The question was about the desirability of archiving RAW files as compared to archiving TIFF files. Shane says TIFF. I say RAW. After several back and forths, Shane offers the following reasons for not archiving to RAW.
Re-loading and
using old software is usually a major grind if it works at all.
Reality check number two: few photographers will ever do a mass
conversion of raw files to some other (probably proprietary)
format.
Reality check number three: this implies that the photographer will
re-process from .crw to some new format, and discard his/her tiffs,
simply because .crw contains "more information".
I would posit that all of your reasons merely express your personal opinions about your own personal workflow. Yep, I can't argue that you have made choices and found the workflow that works for you.

I can raise an eybrow, however, when you extrapolate your own personal opinions to be the opinions of all photogrophers. And I'd really object if you are claiming that any of these opinions are facts.

To recap, my reasons:

1. RAW files contain more information than TIFF files. The information loss (after conversion to TIFF) may or may not be significant for any given picture, but it is information loss neverthless. RAW == negative.

2. RAW files are generally smaller than TIFF files, so you typically would only need half as much backup media. If media size isn't an issue, then save both RAW and TIFF.

3. The Windows based computer industry has shown remarkable reslilance in maintaining backwards compatility. I can't speak for the Mac side, but I can speak for the CP/M -> MS-DOS -> Windows side, because I have been using this since 1980. I'm still using programs that date from the 1980s. There is negligible worry that a Windows based RAW converter will be unusable some time in the future, based on my experiences.

Wayne Larmon
 
I would posit that all of your reasons merely express your personal
opinions about your own personal workflow.
Opinions yes, about my personal workflow no. They're opinions about the options realistically available to all photographers with any meaningful volume of work.

If you think that anyone would willingly re-process a large volume of raw files for the "extra information" they contain relative to a commercial-quality tiff, or that the money saved on dvd blanks is more valuable than the time required to recover an archive of printable images from raw files, then I have to say you're simply wrong.

If on the other hand your real proposal is that both raw and tiffs should be backed up, I have no problem with that. But I doubt anyone would use the archive of raw files unless their tiff backups were lost.
--
Slane
 
I would posit that all of your reasons merely express your personal
opinions about your own personal workflow.
Opinions yes, about my personal workflow no. They're opinions about
the options realistically available to all photographers with any
meaningful volume of work.

If you think that anyone would willingly re-process a large volume
of raw files for the "extra information" they contain relative to a
commercial-quality tiff, or that the money saved on dvd blanks is
more valuable than the time required to recover an archive of
printable images from raw files, then I have to say you're simply
wrong.

If on the other hand your real proposal is that both raw and tiffs
should be backed up, I have no problem with that. But I doubt
anyone would use the archive of raw files unless their tiff backups
were lost.
--
Slane
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/
 
If you think that anyone would willingly re-process a large volume
of raw files for the "extra information" they contain relative to a
commercial-quality tiff, or that the money saved on dvd blanks is
more valuable than the time required to recover an archive of
printable images from raw files, then I have to say you're simply
wrong.
I believe that we are back to exchanging opinions. But maybe we should let this discussion die. I think both of us have expressed our opinions on this matter such that any further exchanges are unlikely to offer any relevent information for the other participants of this forum.

Wayne Larmon
 
As time goes on, virtual machine technology will continue to progress and it will be easy to run a version of Windows 98 on your Windows 2011 PC. So, I really have no doubt that running an old version of a Windows application will be possible for years to come.
As a former CP/M owner, I have to wonder at the wisdom of this
assumption.
I'm also a former CP/M user and I still have copies of (originally
CP/M but ported to MS/DOS) WordStar, DataStar and SuperSort. And
Visicalc. All work just fine on my XP system. As do pretty much
any mid 1980s era MS/DOS software. If not natively in XP, then in
VMWare Virtual Machines.

I was using WordStar just yesterday to do a quick ASCII file edit.
It works great. My own personal address list application is
DataStar based, well, because I never found any compelling reason
to do a newer one.

O/S changes do not happen instantly. You always have plenty of
time to migrate data over, if needed. But CP/M -> MS/DOS ->
Windows stuff mostly didn't need to be migrated, because it is
still mostly compatible.

Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you
should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
Chris Butler
I agree, all you have to do is save a duplicate or triplicate copy
of your converter along with your RAW files & you should never be
without a converter.
--
http://www.joesimages.com
 
As time goes on, virtual machine technology will continue to
progress and it will be easy to run a version of Windows 98 on your
Windows 2011 PC. So, I really have no doubt that running an old
version of a Windows application will be possible for years to come.
Yeah. For those who didn't pick up on the VM reference, see http://www.vmware.com/

The problem of running older software really is a non-issue. Expecially for software that runs on a popular O/S like Windows.

Wayne Larmon
As a former CP/M owner, I have to wonder at the wisdom of this
assumption.
I'm also a former CP/M user and I still have copies of (originally
CP/M but ported to MS/DOS) WordStar, DataStar and SuperSort. And
Visicalc. All work just fine on my XP system. As do pretty much
any mid 1980s era MS/DOS software. If not natively in XP, then in
VMWare Virtual Machines.

I was using WordStar just yesterday to do a quick ASCII file edit.
It works great. My own personal address list application is
DataStar based, well, because I never found any compelling reason
to do a newer one.

O/S changes do not happen instantly. You always have plenty of
time to migrate data over, if needed. But CP/M -> MS/DOS ->
Windows stuff mostly didn't need to be migrated, because it is
still mostly compatible.

Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you
should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
Chris Butler
I agree, all you have to do is save a duplicate or triplicate copy
of your converter along with your RAW files & you should never be
without a converter.
--
http://www.joesimages.com
 
Right, and Microsoft recently purchased Connectix which is also a virtual machine technology.
As time goes on, virtual machine technology will continue to
progress and it will be easy to run a version of Windows 98 on your
Windows 2011 PC. So, I really have no doubt that running an old
version of a Windows application will be possible for years to come.
Yeah. For those who didn't pick up on the VM reference, see
http://www.vmware.com/

The problem of running older software really is a non-issue.
Expecially for software that runs on a popular O/S like Windows.

Wayne Larmon
As a former CP/M owner, I have to wonder at the wisdom of this
assumption.
I'm also a former CP/M user and I still have copies of (originally
CP/M but ported to MS/DOS) WordStar, DataStar and SuperSort. And
Visicalc. All work just fine on my XP system. As do pretty much
any mid 1980s era MS/DOS software. If not natively in XP, then in
VMWare Virtual Machines.

I was using WordStar just yesterday to do a quick ASCII file edit.
It works great. My own personal address list application is
DataStar based, well, because I never found any compelling reason
to do a newer one.

O/S changes do not happen instantly. You always have plenty of
time to migrate data over, if needed. But CP/M -> MS/DOS ->
Windows stuff mostly didn't need to be migrated, because it is
still mostly compatible.

Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you
should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
Chris Butler
I agree, all you have to do is save a duplicate or triplicate copy
of your converter along with your RAW files & you should never be
without a converter.
--
http://www.joesimages.com
--
http://www.joesimages.com
 
Strictly as an exercise for the reader, pop into Google and do a search on "Win95 Win32 compatibility".

Lots of MS-DOS programs (especially those with TSR's) didn't run well under Win95, and the move from 16 bit Windows to 32 bit Windows also wasn't painless. Similarly, ask the Mac crowd about the migration to a 32 bit Unix-based system.

To say nothing of the HP/Intel Itanium, a 64 bit science fair project incompatible with x86 instructions. If it ever gains traction, duck-and-cover...

You may also note in Wayne's comment that his apps were "ported" from CP/M to Windows. That means "rewritten", folks. If the apps were written in C (likely), the ports may not have been too traumatic, but somebody had to put in some cycles there.

My point is that the future is uncertain, and not many aging apps can expect to receive porting treatment to non-compatible architectures. There's a reason Cobol survives as the world's most portable programming language, despite Mr. Gosling's (et al) best efforts with Java...

Personally, I'm sticking with JPEG's...

Chris
Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you
should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
 
So you can fire up a DOS virtual machine if need be and get access to your apps/files/etc.
Lots of MS-DOS programs (especially those with TSR's) didn't run
well under Win95, and the move from 16 bit Windows to 32 bit
Windows also wasn't painless. Similarly, ask the Mac crowd about
the migration to a 32 bit Unix-based system.

To say nothing of the HP/Intel Itanium, a 64 bit science fair
project incompatible with x86 instructions. If it ever gains
traction, duck-and-cover...

You may also note in Wayne's comment that his apps were "ported"
from CP/M to Windows. That means "rewritten", folks. If the apps
were written in C (likely), the ports may not have been too
traumatic, but somebody had to put in some cycles there.

My point is that the future is uncertain, and not many aging apps
can expect to receive porting treatment to non-compatible
architectures. There's a reason Cobol survives as the world's most
portable programming language, despite Mr. Gosling's (et al) best
efforts with Java...

Personally, I'm sticking with JPEG's...

Chris
Yes, just put the RAW converter on your backup disiks and you
should be all set.

Wayne Larmon
--
http://www.joesimages.com
 
Strictly as an exercise for the reader, pop into Google and do a
search on "Win95 Win32 compatibility".
Search this forum for "focus problem" and you'd get a lot of hits (if search is working) but this wouldn't prove that cameras have too many focusing problems to use.

But I did follow your search suggestion. I found that half the Google hits for this were links for Win API emulator projects that are working on Win 32 compatibility, which would indicate to me that many people are working on maintaining Windows compatability, no matter what O/S survives in the future. (cough, Linux, cough)

Most of the other links were to early NT 4.0 and OS/2 information, which probably isn't too relevant for our discussion of future O/Ss and Virtual Machines.

Wayne Larmon
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top