As I contemplate the direction I want to go with my mirrorless gear it strikes me that for the first time I really don't trust Nikon to follow through on their next offering. I trusted them to keep developing the Nikon 1 line and spent a small fortune in gear. Of course it still works great but I do wish I had a V4 or some new lenses to look forward to. I'm not sure I could do it again. My fear is that they will drop the ball on their next mirrorless line too. Nikon's false start with the DL line doesn't help either. 5 years ago I had no doubts about Nikon. I do now.
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Do you trust Nikon?
- Thread starter dleuen1
- Start date
I know what you mean. I was quite happy with my 1 gear, after I killed one of my cameras and lenses, I went m43... I don't trust that format isn't coughing and spluttering its way to demise. Maybe that's gonna be the nature of this beast until sensor sizes etc settle.
On the other hand... Nikon must be losing out big time to competitors, and simply want a piece of mirrorless pie. Nikon must know both that consumer confidence matters and that theirs has been damaged. 1 inch does seem to be the new size for compact cameras and to make sense for those who want a second, smaller camera as well as a full time capable camera.
So.. I dunno.
On the other hand... Nikon must be losing out big time to competitors, and simply want a piece of mirrorless pie. Nikon must know both that consumer confidence matters and that theirs has been damaged. 1 inch does seem to be the new size for compact cameras and to make sense for those who want a second, smaller camera as well as a full time capable camera.
So.. I dunno.
You can trust Nikon to do what they believe is best for Nikon, which by default will be what they think will suit the majority of potential customers.
Personally, I have been irritated by some of Nikon's recent decisions, but can still see the commercial rationale behind them.
My main concern has been the period where they seemed to have serious QC issues, but it looks as if that might be behind them.
So, overall, I don't see any reason to mistrust Nikon more than any other camera company.
Parry Johnson
Senior Member
I don't think is as much a matter pre trust as it is practicality. I trust my hammer or saw, but if one breaks, I buy another, and although I prefer one brand over another, it really doesn't matter much once you get used to another one.
Long ago, I used to be a Canon FD film user. Canon switched to the electronic EOS mount and I started collecting Tamron Adaptall lenses, knowing I would probably switch to Nikon or Pentax because those manufacturers' mounts didn't change. Same basic issue, but thinking ahead made it easier to transition. I slowly sold off the Tamrons and accumulated Nikon replacements.
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to convert CX lenses and bodies aren't kept up either, so Nikon 1 will likely become a dead system. However, for those of us who like and still use them, they're just as useful as they always have been -- perhaps even more likely to keep them because they'll be tough to sell or worth too little. (I've been trying to sell my V1 for months locally, but no takers, and I'm not going to give it away -- I probably WILL end up giving it away, but to some deserving kid who I know will appreciate and use it. To me, that's a further INVESTMENT. In the meantime, I don't feel bad racking up more actuations.)
Long ago, I used to be a Canon FD film user. Canon switched to the electronic EOS mount and I started collecting Tamron Adaptall lenses, knowing I would probably switch to Nikon or Pentax because those manufacturers' mounts didn't change. Same basic issue, but thinking ahead made it easier to transition. I slowly sold off the Tamrons and accumulated Nikon replacements.
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to convert CX lenses and bodies aren't kept up either, so Nikon 1 will likely become a dead system. However, for those of us who like and still use them, they're just as useful as they always have been -- perhaps even more likely to keep them because they'll be tough to sell or worth too little. (I've been trying to sell my V1 for months locally, but no takers, and I'm not going to give it away -- I probably WILL end up giving it away, but to some deserving kid who I know will appreciate and use it. To me, that's a further INVESTMENT. In the meantime, I don't feel bad racking up more actuations.)
Paul Pasco
Forum Pro
Nikon is a manufacturer not a partner. They are going to do what they believe best to stay in business and often lately that means disappointing some of us. I believe they have the capability of making a class leading APS-C or FF mirrorless product but they have to believe themselves first and do it. The review of the D850 has shown me that as nice as the camera is, the limitations of the DSLR AF system are becoming more serious as pixel count rises. We all have opinions on what went wrong with N1 and other companies have learned from Nikon’s mistakes as I hope Nikon has.
Trust doesn’t enter into the purchase equation for me, I will buy what I think will work for me and enjoy, whether it’s a Nikon or something else.
Trust doesn’t enter into the purchase equation for me, I will buy what I think will work for me and enjoy, whether it’s a Nikon or something else.
Michael Benveniste
Veteran Member
I trust future product plans of companies just as much as I trust "dot-zero" software releases -- not at all.
The DL line never interested me, but it's a good example of why I limit my trust. Even once a product is shipped, becoming an "early adopter" is balance of risk and reward. I've done so twice with Nikon. The first was the 24-120mm f/4 VR. I've never regretted that purchase even at full price. The second was the D800, and despite the "left af sensor" issue I was glad of that purchase as well. With other products, such as the Alpine Labs Pulse, I wasn't so lucky.
5 years ago, Nikon had already rushed out the V2 and put the V1 on "fire sale" after indifferent reviews and lagging sales. If you trusted Nikon to keep investing in a product line that couldn't break the top-3 in market share, I'm afraid your trust was misplaced.
I didn't have much trust in Nikon since they came up with N1, because they obviously made a few bad decisions kinda intentionally because they were making a camera for Ashton Kutcher or whoever and it may happen again. They're deeply behind schedule on more serious mirrorless and have restricted development resources. I'm afraid they're not to big to fail.
That isn't how Nikon Europe were marketing the N1, it was squarely aimed at the enthusiast for when they needed something smaller and lighter than their Nikon DSLR.
for example this publicity video for the V2, which was part of a series.
Having said that, I have no idea who Ashton Kucher is, but I assume he is some sort of celebrity.
Cheers,
Graham
It's fair to say the N1 system has disappointed some people, e.g. macro photographs. Early adopters of the N1 also had to pay a lot. Still, the N1 performs nicely, and the costs have come down, e.g. viz the recent Cyberweek sale of the V3. Try to find a camera for birds in flight for circa Euro 500 (V2 + cx 70-300) outside the N1. Capable BIF systems in the MFT or DSLR world cost Euro 2k or more.
There are limits, the N1 can't do bracketing, has no dedicated macro lens, is problematic in low light. Modern rivals do HDR, GPS and whatnot. But still - I find it great how the N1 performs as a portable, affordable and user-friendly system.
And since I mentioned Macro - a week ago there was Nikon's LD-1000 macro or film lamp sold for Euro 10.50 at ebay. Looking at reviews, it is a fine tool, highly appreciated by users. - It's just wasting time to bash Nikon. We'd rather love and use what we have.
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W
Wu Jiaqiu
Guest
i would prefer Nikon to carry on and be successful and not have any new Nikon 1 products rather than them carrying the system on and going out of business, the market has changed and the Nikon 1 a casualty of that
Michael Benveniste
Veteran Member
Not exactly. Take a look at this 30-second spot, for example, which is a lowest-common denominator ad consisting mainly of beauty shots of the J1:
Cherry picking? Perhaps. But this was posted just after introduction on YouTube by Nikon Europe. You may also note that it received about 10K views a year.
But that is the J-series which is obviously a very different market to the V1/V2 (even though its got a bit confused with the J5 and no V4).
My very strong memory from the time, of the adverts and the interviews with Nikon staff was of a camera (the V1/V2) with a clear target market of DSLR users.
Cheers,
Graham
Michael Benveniste
Veteran Member
While the ad shows the J-series, the voiceover simply talks about Nikon 1. If you saw this ad, would it inspire you to investigate the higher-end models?
Nikon needed the entire line to succeed, not just the V-series. And at least to my American sensibilities, both this ad and the U.S. ads starring Ashton Kutcher did nothing to make the Nikon 1 stand out from the competition.
I can't speak to your memory but, Masahiko Inoue, Nikon's Group 2 Marketing Manager, apparently disagreed. Quoting, "‘We're not seeing cannibalization between the DSLR and the Nikon 1: the customer is completely different." (Source)
But, if you keep reading beyond the line you quote, he is agreeing with my memory of the the V1/V2 days, where the V series was seen as an addition to a DSLR.
Nt that it matters very much, as whatever they did or did not think they haven't done a particularly good job of it.
Cheers,
Graham
"As far as I can tell, all four of those [Nikon mirrorless] options are in progress towards introduction still, with various 2018 dates for each. As I indicated above, there appear to be heated internal arguments about which of these options should really be pursued."
http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/what-is-happening-in-tokyo.html
If true, Nikon sounds pretty confused about their mirrorless strategy. It will be interesting to see what does, or doesn't, happen at the CP+ trade show in March 2018.
http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/what-is-happening-in-tokyo.html
If true, Nikon sounds pretty confused about their mirrorless strategy. It will be interesting to see what does, or doesn't, happen at the CP+ trade show in March 2018.
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Tuonov2
Senior Member
I don't trust any corporation to do what's right for me, only what they think is right for their shareholders,
I have no expectations of loyalty in a corporate world and give no loyalty back, if company x doesn't sell what I want I'll buy from a company that does.
I have no expectations of loyalty in a corporate world and give no loyalty back, if company x doesn't sell what I want I'll buy from a company that does.
Parry Johnson
Senior Member
I think you nailed it with this answer. It's not as much trust as it is limited expectations and loyalty.
Bear with me, but I'm a teacher by trade and I often give analogies. I used the saw and hammer correlation a few weeks ago, so I'll use another one...
I don't trust big dogs ever since a half German shepherd / half wolf or something almost bit my ear off when I was seven years old. Needless to say that I'm usually wary of big dogs and most smaller dogs ever since. The old adage "Once bitten, twice shy" also works for camera companies. That was true for me with Canon, otherwise I would still be using Canons today. If I only had CX lenses and bodies, I would probably feel the same way.
However, since Nikon 1 isn't and never will be my main system, I don't have the same level of concern, and I'm willing to bet that most members on this forum are in the same boat. In reality, if any of us have other Nikons, Canons, etc. then it's really not a big problem. Sure, our loyalties may change, but we may sometimes either completely trust our equipment (until it suddenly lets us down without warning, like the biting dog) or there's a tiny bit of distrust (like that lens for which you paid too much, yet is sometimes too soft or misfocuses, like the neighbour's dog that is "all bark but no bite").
PS. I've come to love some big dogs, but only after getting to know and appreciate a visually-impaired friend's seeing-eye dog. Knowing the cost and discipline that goes into a guide dog, that too is like a well-built and functioning camera system -- you use it for the purpose of helping you get results you want, yet there is a finite number of usable years before you finally realize that it must retire. My friend gets a new guide dog, the old one enjoys a few more years of just being a well-behaved dog, and I get a new camera -- the whole process of learning and working starts over again!
Loyalty, practicality and expectations, yes. Trust? Probably not always, but you certainly need to trust your chosen tools most of the time.
When I originally posted this question I was considering selling my Nikon 1 gear and moving to Sony or Canon for a small rig. But I have since doubled down on Nikon 1 and bought a few more lenses and re-purchased a V3. My lack of trust was more in deciding to wait for Nikon's next mirrorless system and if I could trust Nikon to continue that new line for some time. But it seemed to me to be most likely an APS-C offering and that just not what I want. I can't see how that could remain nearly as compact as the Nikon 1 series. If I want a bigger rig I'll use my D7500. The small size of the Nikon 1 is what really sells it for me.
CX 70-300 vs. DX 70-300
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Tord S Eriksson
Forum Pro
Interesting thoughts, Parry.
Yeah, if one invests a lot into a camera system one (at least I and my wife) start to trust it more than one really should. We did that with Pentax, and when the company started to sell odder and odder cameras, like the K-01, we jumped ship, feeling a bit betrayed, just as we think Nikon could at least had made a V4, combining the sensor, processor and flip screen of the J5, with the basic design of the V2, or why not the V1, but with a better grip, like the add-on grips that eventually appeared on the market.
But that's more of a gut reaction, not really sensible. The shareholders demand the company they invest in to make a profit, and usually, if it does not, the company goes down-hill. Too small profits and there will be no money for new models or upgrades or even care of the machinery/employees.
I read somewhere that the basic principle at Apple has been from the start to have a healthy profit margin for every product they make, as without, you can't invest in new, better, products. I seem to recall it was set to 40%, but I might remember incorrectly. Anyway, anything below the limit is immediately canceled, and replaced by something new. Seems to work well for them!
Pretty sure Nikon's profit on the Nikon 1 range never, ever reach even normal figures, and occasionally went the other way, into the mire of debt.
Happily, their DSLRs are selling like hot cakes, at least the D850 really has taken off in a great way.
But the N1 range seems to have stalled totally, with an occasional sale of what's been found stowed away. That's about it.
Now I really don't care, I know which situations my N1 cameras are excellent, which they are usable, and when they definitely not are suitable.
In a studio-like situation, I lean towards my D600, unless it is a miniature/macro situation when even my N1 cameras and lenses make do.
So I use wide and long N1 lenses, plus some macro F Mount lenses on my N1 bodies, but for more normal shots I now mostly use DX/APS-C, either a fixed focus compact, like my GR, or one of my Dxxxx's.
A Merry Christmas to you all!
Yeah, if one invests a lot into a camera system one (at least I and my wife) start to trust it more than one really should. We did that with Pentax, and when the company started to sell odder and odder cameras, like the K-01, we jumped ship, feeling a bit betrayed, just as we think Nikon could at least had made a V4, combining the sensor, processor and flip screen of the J5, with the basic design of the V2, or why not the V1, but with a better grip, like the add-on grips that eventually appeared on the market.
But that's more of a gut reaction, not really sensible. The shareholders demand the company they invest in to make a profit, and usually, if it does not, the company goes down-hill. Too small profits and there will be no money for new models or upgrades or even care of the machinery/employees.
I read somewhere that the basic principle at Apple has been from the start to have a healthy profit margin for every product they make, as without, you can't invest in new, better, products. I seem to recall it was set to 40%, but I might remember incorrectly. Anyway, anything below the limit is immediately canceled, and replaced by something new. Seems to work well for them!
Pretty sure Nikon's profit on the Nikon 1 range never, ever reach even normal figures, and occasionally went the other way, into the mire of debt.
Happily, their DSLRs are selling like hot cakes, at least the D850 really has taken off in a great way.
But the N1 range seems to have stalled totally, with an occasional sale of what's been found stowed away. That's about it.
Now I really don't care, I know which situations my N1 cameras are excellent, which they are usable, and when they definitely not are suitable.
In a studio-like situation, I lean towards my D600, unless it is a miniature/macro situation when even my N1 cameras and lenses make do.
So I use wide and long N1 lenses, plus some macro F Mount lenses on my N1 bodies, but for more normal shots I now mostly use DX/APS-C, either a fixed focus compact, like my GR, or one of my Dxxxx's.
A Merry Christmas to you all!
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