Taking photos without consent - a hate crime now

I have been telling people for a long time to start pushing back hard over the erosion of their personal freedoms. I suspect there are people posting their outrage here in this thread that think this isn't a problem.
Or: It's not a problem.
Why is the government pushing things like this "consent" issue regarding photography?
It isn't.
It is a means to control the dissimination of information.
No, it isn't.
Think how controlling a government can be that dictates what can be photographed.
Think how incredibly off-base you are from the actual situation.

This change is over a year old, and the UK has not collapsed into tyranny over the past year. Nottinghamshire's police department made no change whatsoever to any laws. All they're doing is changing how they are recording the statistics.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...d-become-a-hate-crime-in-london-a3713291.html

The Metropolitan Police today revealed it is speaking with other UK forces to assess whether it is worth cracking down on gender-based hate crimes after a pilot scheme was launched in the East Midlands last year.

The trial, led by Nottinghamshire Police, saw sexist incidents like street harassment, verbal abuse and taking photos without consent recorded as hate crimes,
carrying tougher penalties for offenders.
Sorry, but you're still just not getting it. You need to understand how the law works in a democratic system with separation of powers.

Now, bearing in mind that actual laws and the names of offences vary between (and within) or countries, but a lot of basic principles apply across each:

Let's say I beat someone up. The police could charge me with common assault, but they charge me with serious assault instead, which carries a tougher penalty. Same as 'assault occasioning actual bodily harm' versus 'assault occasioning grievous bodily harm'. Or misdemeanour assault versus felony assault. All the latter carry tougher penalties than the former.

Have the police created new laws? No. Are they using the discretion that is a fundamental element of police practice to decide what part of the existing law to charge me under? Yes. Do the police decide I get the tougher penalty? No - the court decides that as the court is the arbiter of the law. If the facts of the case do not support the more serious charge, the prosecution will fail.

Or the police announce that they will treat the killing of security personnel as First Degree Murder, rather than Second Degree Murder. Or as Murder instead of Manslaughter. Same as above.

Of course, the government can decide it will change the law so that from now on killing security personnel will automatically be treated as the more serious offence. Governments can do that as they make the laws. Police can only enforce them, with a degree of discretion; police cannot make laws.

Let me know if you need that clarified any further.
 
I have been telling people for a long time to start pushing back hard over the erosion of their personal freedoms. I suspect there are people posting their outrage here in this thread that think this isn't a problem.
Or: It's not a problem.
Why is the government pushing things like this "consent" issue regarding photography?
It isn't.
It is a means to control the dissimination of information.
No, it isn't.
Think how controlling a government can be that dictates what can be photographed.
Think how incredibly off-base you are from the actual situation.

This change is over a year old, and the UK has not collapsed into tyranny over the past year. Nottinghamshire's police department made no change whatsoever to any laws. All they're doing is changing how they are recording the statistics.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...d-become-a-hate-crime-in-london-a3713291.html

The Metropolitan Police today revealed it is speaking with other UK forces to assess whether it is worth cracking down on gender-based hate crimes after a pilot scheme was launched in the East Midlands last year.

The trial, led by Nottinghamshire Police, saw sexist incidents like street harassment, verbal abuse and taking photos without consent recorded as hate crimes,
carrying tougher penalties for offenders.
Sorry, but you're still just not getting it. You need to understand how the law works in a democratic system with separation of powers.
Sure. Good bye.
 
I have been telling people for a long time to start pushing back hard over the erosion of their personal freedoms. I suspect there are people posting their outrage here in this thread that think this isn't a problem.
Or: It's not a problem.
Why is the government pushing things like this "consent" issue regarding photography?
It isn't.
It is a means to control the dissimination of information.
No, it isn't.
Think how controlling a government can be that dictates what can be photographed.
Think how incredibly off-base you are from the actual situation.

This change is over a year old, and the UK has not collapsed into tyranny over the past year. Nottinghamshire's police department made no change whatsoever to any laws. All they're doing is changing how they are recording the statistics.

Street photography is legal in the UK. It was legal in 2016, it is legal today, and will be legal tomorrow. The laws on that have not changed one tiny little bit, neither has the enforcement of the law. Amateur use still doesn't require a signed release. Commercial use still requires a signed release.

There is no government seizure of all media. There is no government edicts that stop street photography. The police are not seizing cameras and looking for photos of people on the streets. Theresa May is not coming for your camera.

Please, spare us the histrionics.
Exactly.

Regarding the photography part of the issue, the Nottinghamshire police are basically saying:

You want to take a photo of a woman in the street, go for it. Just apply reasonable standards of respect. You want to follow her, taking a bunch of photos of her and making her feel uncomfortable or keep doing it when she asks you to stop or photograph up her skirt, you are going to be in trouble - not because you took photos, but because the way you behaved while taking them was wrong.

You might find yourself charged with an offence (that was already an offence) and if you were really horrid about it, we might put it in the database as a hate crime because we want to know how much of this stuff goes on and we want people to know we are taking it seriously.

We might even argue to the court that your behaviour was motivated by hate, which is not a new type of crime, but an aggravating factor. Of course it is up to the court if they accept that argument.

It's really no different to the police saying:

We are tired of people speeding in our town. We're going to put on extra patrols and crack down on it. And if you were going really fast, we're not just going to give you a speeding fine, we're going to charge you with dangerous driving. You've been warned.
All the police should be saying is - we are going to enforce the law.
As in "we haven't been enforcing the law, but now we are going to"? That would go down well.

What you suggest would be a meaningless statement. Of course they are going to enforce the law - that is their job. Police agencies have discretion as to how they enforce the law, what they are going to focus limited resources on. They make these annoucements all the time:

"We are cracking down on public drunkenness"

"We are going to prosecute drug dealers to the full extent of the law"

"Speed on our roads and expect to be caught"

"Our community has had enough of children being abused and from now on if you get caught abusing a child, expect to be charged with a felony. Hurting our kids is not a misdemeanour".

That is part of what police leaders do and what we expect them to do. It makes it clear they are serious about keeping us safe.
 
lol

Any port in a storm, huh? Pretty much every bit you quoted has already been shown to be wrong.
In your imagination only. Is it wrong that London are considering to do this "reporting" as well?
The ES is making the same exact mistakes made a year ago when Nottinghamshire changed their reporting. Sad!
Another wrong statement:

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee earlier this week, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton said: “You would take any offence that the person reported and if it reached the evidential standard and had been reported as a hate crime then it would attract an enhanced sentence.
 
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Keep your head in the sand. I see what is happening in the UK and much of Europe and the trend isn't good for keeping your personal freedoms in place over the long term. France is about to make a wolf whistle illegal.
Sexual harassment is already illegal. They are clarifying the law to say that this is a form of sexual harassment. That's fine by me. Are you saying sexual harassment should not be illegal?
The UK is looking to criminalize "thought without action"
Like conspiracy to commit a crime (already criminalised)?

Or planning a terrorist attack? Do you have a problem with criminalising that?
and establishing an “online hate crime hub.”
A way of improving the response to hate crime and taking more effective action against online vilification and hate speech - good!!
Do you really trust a government with this type of authority over you?
It already has and far more. It is not the type of authority that matters, but how it's used. I'm a lefty and I am very comfortable with the examples you've mentioned.
Who gets to decide what is a hate thought
The government in making the law and the courts in applying it - same as all other crimes
or what if you are reported and arrested for an online hate crime over an argument on a photography forum?
Some of those posting on Off Topic came close to arrest-worthy posts (TeddyBigFoot and your current ID - I'm looking at you). Free speech comes with limits and responsibilities. If I am unfairly accused, I have to trust the criminal justice system of my country to do its job, which overall it does very well. If I deserve to be prosecuted and punished, hopefully I will be.
It is amazing how many people will walk off a cliff like lemmings oblivious to their fate until they stop falling.
I have a healthy scepticism and cynicism and am wary of the potential over-reach of authority. In many ways our responses to the threats of terrorism have gone to far and we have played into terrorists' hands by giving up aspects of our freedom. Far too much personal information is gathered and held by public and private organisations.

But the examples you have cited are signs of paranoia and hysteria.
 
lol

Any port in a storm, huh? Pretty much every bit you quoted has already been shown to be wrong.
In your imagination only. Is it wrong that London are considering to do this "reporting" as well?
The ES is making the same exact mistakes made a year ago when Nottinghamshire changed their reporting. Sad!
Another wrong statement:

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee earlier this week, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton said: “You would take any offence that the person reported and if it reached the evidential standard and had been reported as a hate crime then it would attract an enhanced sentence.
 
lol

Any port in a storm, huh? Pretty much every bit you quoted has already been shown to be wrong.
In your imagination only. Is it wrong that London are considering to do this "reporting" as well?
The ES is making the same exact mistakes made a year ago when Nottinghamshire changed their reporting. Sad!
Another wrong statement:

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee earlier this week, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton said: “You would take any offence that the person reported and if it reached the evidential standard and had been reported as a hate crime then it would attract an enhanced sentence.
The standard for what?

BTW, the title of that article is Sexism could be treated as a hate crime, says top police official. Not because the law says so; because the police thinks so.

Here is more:

Many women called the helpline to ask which crimes were included as sexist hate crimes.

Shouldn't they be calling the parliament? It is a parliamentary republic and all that.

Will you keep denying the fact that the police redefines the law and redefines sexism and sexual harassment as hate crimes? This is what they say.

Anyway, my tolerance for BS is exceeded. I will stop replying to you and to the Spin-it guy.
 
lol

Any port in a storm, huh? Pretty much every bit you quoted has already been shown to be wrong.
In your imagination only. Is it wrong that London are considering to do this "reporting" as well?
The ES is making the same exact mistakes made a year ago when Nottinghamshire changed their reporting. Sad!
Another wrong statement:

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee earlier this week, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton said: “You would take any offence that the person reported and if it reached the evidential standard and had been reported as a hate crime then it would attract an enhanced sentence.
The standard for what?
If you don't get the concept of standards in determining whether the elements of an offence have been established, I can't help you.
BTW, the title of that article is Sexism could be treated as a hate crime, says top police official. Not because the law says so; because the police thinks so.
Under the British system of law, the police do not determine the law and they can only do what the law says. That is simply the way it works.
Here is more:

Many women called the helpline to ask which crimes were included as sexist hate crimes.

Shouldn't they be calling the parliament? It is a parliamentary republic and all that.
They could, but it is much simpler and more effective to ask those responsible for enforcing the law.
Will you keep denying the fact that the police redefines the law and redefines sexism and sexual harassment as hate crimes? This is what they say.
I am not denying any facts - you are misunderstanding the facts.

The police cannot redefine the law and they are not attempting to do so. Of course they could try, but the government and courts would quickly put an end to that.
Anyway, my tolerance for BS is exceeded. I will stop replying to you and to the Spin-it guy.
Did you not learn in middle school about separation of powers and how laws are created and enforced?
 
lol

Any port in a storm, huh? Pretty much every bit you quoted has already been shown to be wrong.
In your imagination only. Is it wrong that London are considering to do this "reporting" as well?
Nope.

Yet again! Reporting only means registering it in the statistics as a hate crime. It has no effect on charges or penalties.

Yet again! Nottinghamshire did not arrest anyone for wolf-whistling. That misperception dates to 2015, in a city 100 miles away from Nottinghamshire.

Yet again! Nottinghamshire's reporting did not increase penalties. They can't.

Yet again! There is no evidence that ordinary everyday street photographers were charged with a hate crime for taking a photo of random people on the street. If you believe otherwise, then let's have some names, dates, times, charges, and convictions.
The ES is making the same exact mistakes made a year ago when Nottinghamshire changed their reporting. Sad!
Another wrong statement:

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee earlier this week, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton said: “You would take any offence that the person reported and if it reached the evidential standard and had been reported as a hate crime then it would attract an enhanced sentence.
lol

Yet again, you're cherry-picking. Hamilton wants the penalties to increase -- and he knows the police are not allowed to do so on their own. From the Telegraph article from which you presumably pulled that quote (emphasis added):

Speaking to the Women and Equalities Committee, assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton, who leads on hate crime for the National Police Chiefs' Council, said he believed the police were "going to take this forward" although it would also require action from the courts and CPS....

Prison sentences and fines can be "uplifted" under current CPS guidelines where an offender is found to have acted out of prejudice towards a victim.

Responding to a question from Labour MP Jess Phillips,
Mr Hamilton indicated his own support for a review of the categories, but said other agencies, such as the CPS, courts and Government would also have to implement the change.

"My slight concern would be that the police move on their own," he said.

"It's whether the criminal justice system from its end to end would respond to it. So that's a bigger debate than me."


dt_170111_cherry_picking_800x600.jpg
 
There comes a point when law becomes unenforceable. Especially when it attempts to dictate morality to an insane level like outlawing a whistle. As a society we are reaching that tipping point. When a thought is a crime we are getting into the space where absolute tyranny by government has arrived. You may not care now but I guarantee you will if this lunacy keeps progressing.
 
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The answer is no and you have interpreted the article wrong. It's that simple. End of thread.
 
There comes a point when law becomes unenforceable. Especially when it attempts to dictate morality to an insane level like outlawing a whistle. As a society we are reaching that tipping point. When a thought is a crime we are getting into the space where absolute tyranny by government has arrived. You may not care now but I guarantee you will if this lunacy keeps progressing.
Why do you keep suggesting 'thought is a crime'?

--
Dutch
forestmoonstudio.co.uk
Photography is about light, not light-proof boxes.
 
There comes a point when law becomes unenforceable. Especially when it attempts to dictate morality to an insane level like outlawing a whistle.
It is outlawing the use of a whistle as a form of harassment. Should society allow harassment? Should women just have to put up with harassment? Who should dictate morality?
As a society we are reaching that tipping point. When a thought is a crime
Can you give an example of where thought has been made into a crime?
we are getting into the space where absolute tyranny by government has arrived. You may not care now but I guarantee you will if this lunacy keeps progressing.
 
There comes a point when law becomes unenforceable. Especially when it attempts to dictate morality to an insane level like outlawing a whistle. As a society we are reaching that tipping point. When a thought is a crime we are getting into the space where absolute tyranny by government has arrived. You may not care now but I guarantee you will if this lunacy keeps progressing.
Why do you keep suggesting 'thought is a crime'?
You should keep up with current events.
 
There comes a point when law becomes unenforceable. Especially when it attempts to dictate morality to an insane level like outlawing a whistle. As a society we are reaching that tipping point. When a thought is a crime we are getting into the space where absolute tyranny by government has arrived. You may not care now but I guarantee you will if this lunacy keeps progressing.
Why do you keep suggesting 'thought is a crime'?
 
I've been shooting in the streets in the UK before and since this article was written and never been arrested :)
Well, I have taken photos in China as well, and was not arrested. I guess there are no problems with human rights in China then.
 
I've been shooting in the streets in the UK before and since this article was written and never been arrested :)
Well, I have taken photos in China as well, and was not arrested. I guess there are no problems with human rights in China then.
Hmmm, ignoring the rest of my post and cherry picking one small part to write a sarcy comment to and keep the argument going.

What is your goal here man?
 

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