35mm-format lenses with large image circles?

I too was dissatisfied when I found that a standard had slipped out of plane when all I usually need is rise and fall, I finally built a rigid back with no movements. A digital solution with only rise and fall and side shift would meet 95% of my needs and I can figure out another way for the other 5%.
BTW, I did exactly the same thing with my Toyo VX23D and for exactly the same reason, by using a Toyo Robos rear standard (incredibly, I found a used one for sale in the U.K. for $50 delivered ... what must been the odds of that happening?) then modifying it to remove the upper portion of the standard, thereby eliminating the uneliable tilt function:

1512325441.jpg


I still have and use this camera, although it ended up being heavier than I had hoped -- the Robos rear standard alone weighs as much as either the Actus or WDS do complete! -- so I use either the Actus or Cambo WDS when I'm photographing on foot.

Oh, and speaking of tilt, I've experimented with adding shims under the mounting areas of the lens mount plate where it attaches to the Cambo WDS to add a small, but fixed amount of tilt for every photo.

To my surprise, this worked very, very well and I have been thinking about adding a way to improve upon this, as well as make it adjustable. We shall see, eh?
 
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Cool. Well that all sounds like a solid justification. Which is all any of us really need to do something. The more reliable the conclusions I come up with the better my excuses to do something (buy something or make something), no matter how expensive. Amen.

So just to be clear, your CamboWDS hack is working for Contax 645 lenses and not 35mm FX lenses?

So here's a couple of FX suggestions to try.

1. 24mm DFC Minolta 24mm

2. 21mm Olympus 21mm f2.0

Those will be about the exact opposite of the Canon glass look. I have the Oly 21mm 2.0, I can check the IC, I doubt it has more than a mm or two of shift on FX. Though it looks like you have moved on to larger lenses and bigger cameras. I'm not sure I would go back to tiny shift adapters if I had a modified WDS ready.

Next question: What's up with the RGB monitor on your rig? Is that for focus/composition?
 
Cool. Well that all sounds like a solid justification. Which is all any of us really need to do something. The more reliable the conclusions I come up with the better my excuses to do something (buy something or make something), no matter how expensive. Amen.
It sounds like we're kindred spirits. :-)
So just to be clear, your CamboWDS hack is working for Contax 645 lenses and not 35mm FX lenses?
Yes and No. I have the camera setup for 35mm format lenses, but can then attach my Contax 645 lenses by using an adapter. I like the look of these lenses, too, although for the most part, their apertures are too slow for my nighttime photography. But when I need more movement than I can get from a 35mm format lens or to capture larger files by stitching than the A7R can do with a single shot, I will switch over to them.

Unfortunately, I can't yet control their electronic apertures while they're on the camera -- I have to preset them first, which is somewhat problematic for my nighttime work -- but I am working on fixing that, too. So many projects, so little time! :-D
Though it looks like you have moved on to larger lenses and bigger cameras. I'm not sure I would go back to tiny shift adapters if I had a modified WDS ready.
Nah ... it's really more of a horses-for-courses thing. No one camera is best for every purpose and I am very fortunate that I have several to choose among as appropriate. And Yes, now that I have moved on to cameras with shift movements built in, I doubt that I'll ever go back to using tiny shift adapters. But never say never, eh?
Next question: What's up with the RGB monitor on your rig? Is that for focus/composition?
It's a 7" external HDMI monitor that I use in lieu of the OEM LCD. I found it was difficult to see the effect of applying tilt and swing movements (or more specifically, discovering that the camera was doing so unintentionally) using the OEM LCD, so I installed a larger monitor.

Even though the HDMI resolution falls a bit short of what I see on the 27", 30-bit monitor I use at home, I find it still works better for me overall than squinting at the tiny LCD on the A7R. I am also powering it and the A7R via external batteries, because it's far more convenient than swapping out batteries all the time, plus it lets me keep the heat generated by the battery discharging away from the A7R's sensor. (Many people scoff at this, but during our hot summer months, it really does make a difference in the A7R's performance. As you might expect, I've also been experimenting with a variety of active and passive methods of cooling the sensor so as to improve on its noise performance.)
 
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So after today’s conversation I did some online digging... and I may pursue a Fuji GFX front end plus Hasselblad mirrorless with 24 digitar as a aspirational project.

as an example: https://alphauniverse.com/stories/make-a-mirrorless-camera-into-a-digital-view-camera/

I’d of course start with the GFX rails and front standard for $200 then and fabricate a mount for my Fuji XT-2 onto the bellows out of old combo 4x5 parts, then a Nikon extension tube on the front. That would get me a 24MP tilt/shift rig that could grow up to be medium format compatible over time. Also quite compact.

Then we’ll both be making metal shavings in the shop.

-Schaf
 
I’d of course start with the GFX rails and front standard for $200 then and fabricate a mount for my Fuji XT-2 onto the bellows out of old combo 4x5 parts, then a Nikon extension tube on the front. That would get me a 24MP tilt/shift rig that could grow up to be medium format compatible over time. Also quite compact.
Many people have done something similar using the Fuji GX680 as a parts donor. One suggestion I might offer is to adapt Cambo's AC-78E Bayonet holder to attach your Fuji to the rear standard, because it allows you to switch from horizontal to vertical format by simply releasing a lever and rotating the camera.

I will eventually do the same for my WDS because having to remove the camera body from the rear standard to rotate it makes me very, very nervous, especially when I am working in the dark.
Then we’ll both be making metal shavings in the shop.
Indeed ... good luck! :-)
 
Please show us some more angles. Very interested in your Wide DS trials.
As promised, here's a photo of the back side, where the A7R mounts to the Cambo WDS:

1512243409.jpg
As often is the case, since I posted this photo, I've revised the camera mount again to use the original Cambo bracket, but modified it to accept a Sony A7R body instead of a digital back.

For the benefit of anyone who stumbles across this thread at a later date, here's a photo of the revised camera mount:

1512594642.jpg


Although this setup is slightly heavier than the previous one (something I usually try very hard to avoid), the benefit is that I can now swap the camera from horizontal to vertical format by just sliding the latch at the top of the adapter panel and removing the camera mount panel instead of first removing four thumbscrews (then reversing the procedure when I reinstall the camera mount panel after rotating it 90 degrees.)

This means the amount of time during which the camera potentially can be dropped has been significantly reduced. Needless to say, having dropped a previous A7R body and damaged it beyond affordable repair, I am very sensitive to this issue. (FYI, the reason I didn't do this initially is because I didn't want to permanently modify the camera until I was certain I would be keeping it instead of selling it.)

Eventually, I will replace this setup with the one that's used on the Cambo Actus, which will rotate the camera from horizontal to vertical without ever removing it, but I wll first need to buy a $219 replacement part from Camob, so it isn't a high priority.
 
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It looks very slick. The hangrip must fit but given the deeper hand grip on new Sony cameras RIII would the flange need to be extended back?
 
It looks very slick. The hangrip must fit but given the deeper hand grip on new Sony cameras RIII would the flange need to be extended back?
Yes, the handgrip on the A7RII and A7RIII will be problematic if/when they're used with this camera.

I can probably rejig things to get the A7RII to work, but getting the A7RIII to work will require substantial machine work, because its handgrip is even deeper than the A7RII's handgrip.

Fortunately, it's a non-issue for now, because my testing of the A7RII a couple of years ago found its performance to be not quite as good as the A7R's performance for the type of low-light, long-exposure photography I do.

And based on what I've read about its performance so far, my working assumption is that the A7RIII won't offer a significant improvement in performance over the A7RII, or at least not in those aspects that are relevant to my photography. :-(

So I expect I'm "stuck" using the A7R for a while longer. If I'm wrong, though, then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. :-|
 
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As a follow-up to my initial post, I've recently been experimenting with "The Three Amigos;" i.e., Pentax's three FA Limited lenses (31/f1.8, 43/f1.9, and 77/f1.8.)

To my surprise, the image circles they project are large enough to allow for a useful range of rise/fall/shift movements on my modified Cambo WDS. Or to put it another way, they are at least minimally adequate. Overall, I find their image quality to be quite good, too!

And as a bonus, they all have manual aperture controls and manual focusing helicoids, with a decent range of focus travel, and they're physically compact and relatively light ... win-win, all around! :-)
 
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As a follow-up to my initial post, I've recently been experimenting with "The Three Amigos;" i.e., Pentax's three FA Limited lenses (31/f1.8, 43/f1.9, and 77/f1.8.)
Odd focal lengths - one might wonder if they were in fact originally built for a differnt image circle to the one they were pressed into.
To my surprise, the image circles they project are large enough to allow for a useful range of rise/fall/shift movements on my modified Cambo WDS. Or to put it another way, they are at least minimally adequate. Overall, I find their image quality to be quite good, too!

And as a bonus, they all have manual aperture controls and manual focusing helicoids, with a decent range of focus travel, and they're physically compact and relatively light ... win-win, all around! :-)
 
As a follow-up to my initial post, I've recently been experimenting with "The Three Amigos;" i.e., Pentax's three FA Limited lenses (31/f1.8, 43/f1.9, and 77/f1.8.)
Odd focal lengths - one might wonder if they were in fact originally built for a differnt image circle to the one they were pressed into.
I read somewhere that the lens designer put several other design considerations ahead of achieving traditional focal lengths, basically letting them fall where they might so he could optimize their performance overall.

I actually like them, as they fit very well with my particular taste and preferences. This is true especially of the 31mm lens, because I often find 28mm to be slightly too wide and 35mm to be slightly too long. (Back when I was photographing with an 8x10 view camera, I used what was the equivalent of a 30mm lens and it was spot-on perfect for me!)
 
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Thanks for all your work on this, Mr. AudiiDudii (rhymes with Howdy Doody?) I've been working on a related-but not quite the same rig to do close-up work with tilt on a Sony A7R2. I'm using a vintage Spiratone BellowsMaster (I am the original owner, which gives you an idea of how long I've been doing this.) I've modified it- reduced the rear attachment plate thickness and taking off all the rear movements, adding a quick release camera mount directly on the rear rail slider. This improves stability and reduces flange to sensor distance. (Wish I could find a miniature bag bellows, I'm considering an automotive rubber boot or hose section or something.)

My needs differ from yours in several respects:

-Lenses used at higher magnifications increase the image circle, as the focal length effectively is increased. This increases my lens choices.

-I'm using studio flash, so stability and camera movement is not an issue. You can see I'm using a generic Z-flex tripod head, I've since added a 2.5 lb. weight beneath it. I like flexibility to survey the puzzles I'm photographing, flying over in a landscape motif.

As your know, tilts and movements are VERY persnickety in such a small format. I'm using the zoom manual focus feature on the Sony to confirm focus in the extremes, but I may try tethering to a laptop as well. This is a luxury I have in the studio that would be difficult for you on location.

I'm currently using enlarging lenses- a 60mm Schneider Componon and a 105mm Fujinon. Both through more than adequate circles are are designed for high magnification work. I've been looking for a shorter option in the 35-45mm range. I've experimented with a Pentax 67 45mm, but it's physically too wide at the back to clear the camera's grip. (I partially disassembled it, boy was it a bear to get it back together with all the little springs and shims.) I also looked at a 35mm Mamiya 645, which I also took the rear mount off of. I think it would work, but It belongs to the University where I teach so I didn't make destructive modifications. I question what the optical performance of these MF lenses would be at high magnification, although many of these lenses have floating elements? There have been several 40mm enlarging lenses made, but the specs show these as only covering 24X36, so I don't know if they'll have the coverage I need. I've considered getting an older 35mm Nikon shift lens (I will remove it from the mount, so it will tilt on my rig) but I'm not sure how well it would preform considering the vintage. This is a very limited-use project, so I don't really want to spend big money on lenses or Aptus bodies or such. (Why puzzles? It's part of a larger project on the "good old days" in America, MAGA and such..)

You seem to have researched all this thoroughly, and to have a lot of knowledge and experience on such things. I'd appreciate any feedback or advice you have.

I did have a question about why you need large aperture lenses for your nighttime work- doesn't your Sony have auto-gain for the electronic viewfinder, so that you can get a bright zoomed view to focus with at any aperture? Granted, it looks grainy when the exposure is ramped up but this only effects the viewfinder image, not the exposed file (as far as I know.) Yes, I know that the limited DOF at high aperture is helpful when focusing any lens, but I would think the viewfinder focus zoom on the Sony EVF would make up for that. Because as you well know, wide-coverage and large aperture do not usually go together in lens design parameters. I think in large format lenses, such things were extremely rare. (Wasn't there a Schneider series that included a 150mm f/2.8 4X5 lens?)

dfc25df579bc435fb71d5a0f121be039.jpg
 
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Thanks for all your work on this, Mr. AudiiDudii (rhymes with Howdy Doody?)
Yes, pretty much. It was originally the name I used for my racing team when I raced an Audi way back in the late '80s and it has stuck with me ever since.
I've been working on a related-but not quite the same rig to do close-up work with tilt on a Sony A7R2. I'm using a vintage Spiratone BellowsMaster (I am the original owner, which gives you an idea of how long I've been doing this.) I've modified it- reduced the rear attachment plate thickness and taking off all the rear movements, adding a quick release camera mount directly on the rear rail slider. This improves stability and reduces flange to sensor distance. (Wish I could find a miniature bag bellows, I'm considering an automotive rubber boot or hose section or something.)
Cool project! I love it when people customize whatever-it-is to better serve their specific needs, be a car, a camera, a piece of stereo equipment, etc.
As your know, tilts and movements are VERY persnickety in such a small format. I'm using the zoom manual focus feature on the Sony to confirm focus in the extremes, but I may try tethering to a laptop as well. This is a luxury I have in the studio that would be difficult for you on location.
Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult for me to substitute a tablet (such as a Surface Pro) for my HDMI monitor without too much of a weight penalty. The problem is finding a way to connect the two together, since the A7R, at least, doesn't tether very well.

Its wi-fi capability is very limited, too, because it will only transmit a very low-res .jpg file, which I found worthless when it comes to critically checking focus, etc.

I understand this has improved with the later models, but for other reasons, including the larger grip size, they aren't as well suited to my needs as the first-generation A7R.
You seem to have researched all this thoroughly, and to have a lot of knowledge and experience on such things. I'd appreciate any feedback or advice you have.
My experience working in the macro realm pretty much rounds to zero, so I don't have any useful advice to impart here, alas. Except maybe for the bag bellows: Have you ever thought about making one? You shouldn't need to do any sewing, because a contact-cement bond between the two layers of material should be plenty strong enough and lightproof for your purposes. If I was in your situation, I'd visit a few thrift stores and see if you can find an old raincoat or umbrella that was made with a black, rubberized fabric and source the bellows material from that. Or visit a fabric store and see what they have available for black-out fabric.

Out of curiosity, how large of an image circle do you need? FYI, Nikon also made a 28mm PC lens, too, although in my experience, both of their vintage PC lenses are only so-so performers compared to the best lenses available today.

Also, if you can deal with the Canon's electronic aperture, I understand that their 40mm pancake lens has a surprisingly large image circle and they can usually be bought for not a lot of money. Ditto for the Contax/Yashica 45mm Tessar lens, although they tend to go a bit soft at the outer edge of the image circle (or at least mine does, anyway.)
I did have a question about why you need large aperture lenses for your nighttime work- doesn't your Sony have auto-gain for the electronic viewfinder, so that you can get a bright zoomed view to focus with at any aperture? Granted, it looks grainy when the exposure is ramped up but this only effects the viewfinder image, not the exposed file (as far as I know.)
You are correct that the auto-gain only effects the viewfinder image and not the captured files. The problem I have with relying upon it is when I'm dealing with a truly dark scene, it merely makes the viewfinder image brighter and grainier, but doesn't let me to see any further into the shadows. Whereas a larger aperture does let me see further into the shadows and, as you note, the shallower DoF that goes along with it also makes it easier for me to see exactly where the plane of focus image is located. Dealing with focus shift is sometimes a problem, but not as often as one might expect, especially one is familiar enough with the lenses to make a mental allowance for it.
Yes, I know that the limited DOF at high aperture is helpful when focusing any lens, but I would think the viewfinder focus zoom on the Sony EVF would make up for that.
The zoom does help and I use it a lot, but it also has its limitations, because the signal being fed to the built-in LCD and also to the HDMI output jack is not full-res, so I often end up iterating focus manually by tweaking it very slightly after reviewing each photo. This is also the reason why I found the Aputure VS-1 monitor's 1920x1200 resolution to be adequate, despite the existence of higher-resolution portable monitors, because the signal that is being fed is limited to 1920x1080 resolution, so there's no visible advantage to using a higher-res monitor. <sigh>
Because as you well know, wide-coverage and large aperture do not usually go together in lens design parameters. I think in large format lenses, such things were extremely rare. (Wasn't there a Schneider series that included a 150mm f/2.8 4X5 lens?)
Yes, there is/was: It was part of the Xenotar line. It was also very large and heavy and, as I recall -- I had one way back when -- a very good performer on 4x5 sheet film, but less so on 120 roll film. Today, however, they're also very expensive collector's items, so even if it was the ultimate lens (and it couldn't be, because its focal length is multiples too long for my taste on a 24x36 sensor), it's priced well outside what my modest budget allows.
 
Cool project! I love it when people customize whatever-it-is to better serve their specific needs, be a car, a camera, a piece of stereo equipment, etc.
Thanks. I've been a tinkerer for a long time with both photo and music gear. Lots of big ideas but very limited machining skills. I used to have a guy who would build anything for me as long as I came up with the concept and components (how about an Olympus 200mm lens permanently wedded to a Leica Visolflex with auto-aperture actuation?) He sadly passed years ago.
Except maybe for the bag bellows: Have you ever thought about making one? You shouldn't need to do any sewing, because a contact-cement bond between the two layers of material should be plenty strong enough and lightproof for your purposes. If I was in your situation, I'd visit a few thrift stores and see if you can find an old raincoat or umbrella that was made with a black, rubberized fabric and source the bellows material from that. Or visit a fabric store and see what they have available for black-out fabric.Out of curiosity, how large of an image circle do you need? FYI, Nikon also made a 28mm PC lens, too, although in my experience, both of their vintage PC lenses are only so-so performers compared to the best lenses available today.
Good idea. If I had more time on my hands I'd look into this
Also, if you can deal with the Canon's electronic aperture, I understand that their 40mm pancake lens has a surprisingly large image circle and they can usually be bought for not a lot of money. Ditto for the Contax/Yashica 45mm Tessar lens, although they tend to go a bit soft at the outer edge of the image circle (or at least mine does, anyway.)
I don't want to mess with electronic aperture adapters. But this did make me think of the old manual focus Pentax 40mm pancake, that might be worth checking out. Abundant and affordable on eBay. Re: 28mm Nikkor PC. I used to have one and got a lot of use out of it in the film days, but 28mm is too wide for this project.
Yes, there is/was: It was part of the Xenotar line. It was also very large and heavy and, as I recall -- I had one way back when -- a very good performer on 4x5 sheet film, but less so on 120 roll film. Today, however, they're also very expensive collector's items, so even if it was the ultimate lens (and it couldn't be, because its focal length is multiples too long for my taste on a 24x36 sensor), it's priced well outside what my modest budget allows.
I wasn't suggesting the 150 Xenotar for your use, just to illustrate how rare wide coverage fast lenses were/are. Good luck with your quest!
 
Except maybe for the bag bellows: Have you ever thought about making one? You shouldn't need to do any sewing, because a contact-cement bond between the two layers of material should be plenty strong enough and lightproof for your purposes. If I was in your situation, I'd visit a few thrift stores and see if you can find an old raincoat or umbrella that was made with a black, rubberized fabric and source the bellows material from that. Or visit a fabric store and see what they have available for black-out fabric.Out of curiosity, how large of an image circle do you need? FYI, Nikon also made a 28mm PC lens, too, although in my experience, both of their vintage PC lenses are only so-so performers compared to the best lenses available today.
Good idea. If I had more time on my hands I'd look into this
Hey, I just had a thought: What about adapting a leather lens pouch to function as a bag bellows, such as this one for a Contax lens:

s-l1600.jpg


$9.95 including free shipping: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/W3IAAOSwUJlZ4QTp/s-l1600.jpg

Plus, I'm sure a little bit of time spent searching eBay will turn up any number of other, similar options.

Good luck!
 
That's a good idea. I've got some of those little bags, I'll check it out. I'd need some kind of goopy adhesive to seal them well to the little frames.
Except maybe for the bag bellows: Have you ever thought about making one? You shouldn't need to do any sewing, because a contact-cement bond between the two layers of material should be plenty strong enough and lightproof for your purposes. If I was in your situation, I'd visit a few thrift stores and see if you can find an old raincoat or umbrella that was made with a black, rubberized fabric and source the bellows material from that. Or visit a fabric store and see what they have available for black-out fabric.Out of curiosity, how large of an image circle do you need? FYI, Nikon also made a 28mm PC lens, too, although in my experience, both of their vintage PC lenses are only so-so performers compared to the best lenses available today.
Good idea. If I had more time on my hands I'd look into this
Hey, I just had a thought: What about adapting a leather lens pouch to function as a bag bellows, such as this one for a Contax lens:

s-l1600.jpg


$9.95 including free shipping: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/W3IAAOSwUJlZ4QTp/s-l1600.jpg

Plus, I'm sure a little bit of time spent searching eBay will turn up any number of other, similar options.

Good luck!
 
I think any PC lens will have large image circle. You can probably try old Nikon PC or Minolta Shift CA

There is also a Minolta 24mm VCF, that is not a shift lens, but I think it can work..,
 
Which cambo actus lensboard are you using? I’m looking at going wider than my m39 50mm will get me.

i was thinking of selling the actus and getting a cambo ultima or a 6x9, but then I feel like I will just be in the same boat. I have the m39 and the copal 0 adapters.

The m39 lenses wider than 50 do not focus to infinity, although they are cracking macro lenses.

The large format lenses aren’t wide enough either.

Thanks.adam
 
Which cambo actus lensboard are you using? I’m looking at going wider than my m39 50mm will get me.
I'm using a custom-made one (by S.K. Grimes, I believe ... it came with my Actus when I bought it used) that has a Canon EF mount:

1518829747.jpg


This allows me to mount additional adapters to accommodate a variety of other lens mounts. I have Canon EF adapters that allow me to use a variety of 35mm and 645 format lenses with focal lengths ranging from 15mm to 85mm and I can swap among them quickly and easily.

Note that unlike Cambo's official EF mount lens panel, the one I have has cutouts that are perfectly positioned so I can use a Nikon adapter with aperture control. This allows me to use modern Nikon-mount lenses with electronically controlled apertures as long as they have an aperture control tab (which rules out Nikon's current line of PC lenses, unfortunately.)
 
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