How to get a gradient on black background! HELLLLP

I know for a fact he uses a silver umbrella. And I know a softbox would be easier for the effect but it also changes some other things. Still trying to figure out how he does what he does with the equipment he has. For various reasons, including cost, a giant softbox Everyone says its so simple, easy, and clear but honestly everyone has very different opinions about it.

Even just as a matter of experimentation and education I'm sticking to figuring out how he does it for the time being.

But thanks!

d750guy said:

TatTwamAsi said:

Hey humans,

I'm trying to perfect my headshot skills, and I have a very particular form I'm trying to emulate. I'll post my picture (of the woman) as well as the the person's I'm trying to emulate (of the man). The photographer is David Noles. If you want to look at more of his photos this is his website: http://www.davidnoles.com/

I am shooting with a Canon 60D, 50mm lens (which equates to 80mm on the 60D), with an Xplor 600, and a lastolite 61" parabolic silver umbrella. The back drop is simply a v flat, which I've heard is what David uses for his pure black backgrounds.

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Ditch the umbrella and get a softbox, square or round, it doesn't matter, then google or youtube "softbox feathering", you're welcome.

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TatTwamAsi said:

How low do you think he pushes his focal length and can you post an example of the photo you see him doing it? I understand if that's asking too much from a stranger online haha.

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In the image on the right he is using a wide angle lens. In the image on the left he is using something longer. I'll take a guess and suggest that he's using a 24-70 f2.8 zoom for much of this work.

TatTwamAsi said:

TatTwamAsi said:

Yes, if you're trying to imitate Noles's set-up, you need a bigger not a smaller key light. Instead of collapsing your brolly, you need to bring it closer to your subject.

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I can't get any closer to my subject without going out of the range of a typical focal length for portraiture.

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elliotn is not discussing lens focal length here. He is discussing placement of that main (also known as a "key") light relative to the subject.

TatTwamAsi said:

That's one thing I'm not very good at intuiting. I'm a self-taught photographer who's solid on the basics of theory and practice,

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I do not think you are as solid on the basics of how light works as you think you are. I suggest you start with a book: "Matters of Light and Depth" by Academy Award winning cinematographer and inventor Ross Lowell. https://www.amazon.com/Matters-Light-Depth-Creating-Memorable/dp/1879174030

TatTwamAsi said:

So are you saying that it's impossible for me to get the effect on the photo I posted of his, without another light?

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Yes.

TatTwamAsi said:

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
And follow me on instagram at therealellisv

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It's an odd gradient. And it's very slight. You can do all kinds of things to create a gradient. None I know of uses an umbrella or soft box. Kind of overkill if you ask me.

Just use a regular reflector on a monolight. cover it with some diffusion material and play around with the fall off, distance and power output. The closer the light is, the harder and faster the fall off will be. Just like any kind of lighting. If you use no diffusion, the gradient edge will be harder.

A strip box can work as well. Anything can. What your controls are is again, distance to the background, size of the light source and power of the light output. What works is what you like.

TatTwamAsi said:

I know for a fact he uses a silver umbrella.

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You know for a fact that he sometimes uses a silver umbrella. But sometimes isn't all the time unless he is saying "I never use more than one light, and the only light modifier I own and ever use is this silver umbrella."

If he ain't saying that than everything is up for grabs.

But thanks! [QUOTE="d750guy said:

TatTwamAsi said:

TatTwamAsi, post: 60319934, member: 1819879"]
Hey humans,

I'm trying to perfect my headshot skills, and I have a very particular form I'm trying to emulate. I'll post my picture (of the woman) as well as the the person's I'm trying to emulate (of the man). The photographer is David Noles. If you want to look at more of his photos this is his website: http://www.davidnoles.com/

I am shooting with a Canon 60D, 50mm lens (which equates to 80mm on the 60D), with an Xplor 600, and a lastolite 61" parabolic silver umbrella. The back drop is simply a v flat, which I've heard is what David uses for his pure black backgrounds.

Click to expand...

Ditch the umbrella and get a softbox, square or round, it doesn't matter, then google or youtube "softbox feathering", you're welcome.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

TatTwamAsi said:

I know for a fact he uses a silver umbrella. And I know a softbox would be easier for the effect but it also changes some other things. Still trying to figure out how he does what he does with the equipment he has. For various reasons, including cost, a giant softbox Everyone says its so simple, easy, and clear but honestly everyone has very different opinions about it.

Even just as a matter of experimentation and education I'm sticking to figuring out how he does it for the time being.

But thanks!

Click to expand...

Okay, use a silver umbrella then. Put some flags up and feather the umbrella that way. It's not rocket science. It's controlling where you want the light to fall and not fall. You want most of the light falling your model and some falling the background. You're getting completely dark background because you have no light is reaching it. It's as simple as that.

And sometime the background is evenly lit and the gradient/vignette is burned in post.

Noles is 100% shooting from in front of a large parabolic silver umbrella. Not only is it what multiple people have told me who have worked with him, but it's blatantly obvious from the catchlights in the eyes of his subjects.

So while I understand that he's talking about light placement, using this set up the light can only go close enough to the subject so that the photographer can still be able to stand in front of it with whatever their focal length and take the shot. Most of his photos seem to be in the standard focal length range for headshots or 70-110mm.

What I was saying is that for me to stand in front of the camera with an 80mm focal length I can only get so close, and not close enough to create the effect, which means he must be doing it some other way.

Does that make sense?

I've looked through 80% of the photos in his portfolio and every single one has the same catchlight in the eyes. Out of the 4 people I've talked to who shot with him that was the setup he used.

I'm not saying he never uses a hair light or a snoot, but as far as I can tell he ALWAYS uses the umbrella. I'm sure he's deviated from that in his life, but as far as the work I'm attempting to emulate, those are just the facts.

TatTwamAsi said:

Noles is 100% shooting from in front of a large parabolic silver umbrella. Not only is it what multiple people have told me who have worked with him, but it's blatantly obvious from the catchlights in the eyes of his subjects.

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TatTwamAsi said:

So while I understand that he's talking about light placement, using this set up the light can only go close enough to the subject so that the photographer can still be able to stand in front of it with whatever their focal length and take the shot.

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Okay I understand that.

TatTwamAsi said:

Most of his photos seem to be in the standard focal length range for headshots or 70-110mm.

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That is likely.

TatTwamAsi said:

What I was saying is that for me to stand in front of the camera with an 80mm focal length I can only get so close, and not close enough to create the effect, which means he must be doing it some other way.

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No it means that you'll need that large parabolic umbrella

But in the first photo you posted - of the dark skinned woman with the Afro and the obvious light lighting her from behind and off to teh side of her right shoulder - he was using a second light - and that light was also partially illuminating the background as well. mostly on that side of the set.

I will assume that to keep flare down he also was using flags to keep it from shining directly into the lens.

A lot of people who are just getting into lighting don't understand that the size of the space they are working in and the sizable role played by flags and reflectors.

Looking at more of Noles' work, I bet he works fairly fast and flexibly and that means he keeps his set ups simple. The best headshot photographers I know work that way.

The first real lesson I had in Lighting was a simple one: play, but play systematically.

You don’t have to shoot straight onto the background. Angle it relative to your light source and you will get a gradient - or avoid a gradient for that sake.

I have no experience with large parabolic umbrellas, but I can imagine that something happens when you angle it as well.

As far as I can tell from Noles’ images he does all kinds of things with his light.

Moves it slightly to one side, uses a hairlight, lights one side from behind, uses a backlit background. Maybe not more than one or two lights. But to assume that he uses only one light straight in front of the model, seems to be a bit too simple.
Of course you can try to do it in this way.

Maybe it helps to see your set-up as a three dimensional space, where you can move all the elements freely relative to each other - the model, the camera, the lights and the background. Nothing has to be lined up in an orderly conventional way.

Seedeich said:

You don’t have to shoot straight onto the background. Angle it relative to your light source and you will get a gradient - or avoid a gradient for that sake.

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That is subtle and excellent advice, and is a trick of the trade I forget all too often. Thank you for reminding me.

Seedeich said:

I have no experience with large parabolic umbrellas, but I can imagine that something happens when you angle it as well.

As far as I can tell from Noles’ images he does all kinds of things with his light...But to assume that he uses only one light straight in front of the model, seems to be a bit too simple.

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He certainly does, but he seems to have three or so he uses regularly:

• one light only ( the big parabolic behind him
• A light to the side rear of the subject
• Key from both sides + bright frontal fill.

Seedeich said:

Of course you can try to do it in this way.

Maybe it helps to see your set-up as a three dimensional space, where you can move all the elements freely relative to each other - the model, the camera, the lights and the background. Nothing has to be lined up in an orderly conventional way.

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Great advice again. Well played. Listen to Seedich.

TatTwamAsi said:

I've looked through 80% of the photos in his portfolio and every single one has the same catchlight in the eyes. Out of the 4 people I've talked to who shot with him that was the setup he used.

I'm not saying he never uses a hair light or a snoot, but as far as I can tell he ALWAYS uses the umbrella. I'm sure he's deviated from that in his life, but as far as the work I'm attempting to emulate, those are just the facts.

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No one said anything about a hair light or a snoot being used.

OP,

dude, you of got plenty of input Without a model, set up and take a few pics of your background Then add someone or something and see what you get

Ellis Vener said:

But in the first photo you posted - of the dark skinned woman with the Afro and the obvious light lighting her from behind and off to the side of her right shoulder - he was using a second light - and that light was also partially illuminating the background as well. mostly on that side of the set.

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Someone else posted those photos. I was staying away from the photos with hair lights because I knew they needed an extra light. The photo I posted of the middle aged man with the peacoat, I thought, was a one light setup. But I can admit when I was wrong. I purchased another Xplor 600 today at Adorama with a decent 12x36 stripbox and a grid so I can work on hitting the background that way. Thanks for helping me see the necessity of that.

Ellis Vener said:

I will assume that to keep flare down he also was using flags to keep it from shining directly into the lens.

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One of the biggest thing I know he does from all 5 people I talked to who have shot with him over the years is that he places all subjects between two black v flats (at least for all of them). Everyone said he spent more time adjusting the v flats then taking pictures a lot of the time.

Ellis Vener said:

A lot of people who are just getting into lighting don't understand that the size of the space they are working in and the sizable role played by flags and reflectors.
Looking at more of Noles' work, I bet he works fairly fast and flexibly and that means he keeps his set ups simple. The best headshot photographers I know work that way.
The first real lesson I had in Lighting was a simple one: play, but play systematically.

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That's the idea I'm trying to get into! I'm a quick learner but in this case I've been putting a lot of pressure on myself to learn as quick as I can which can be frustrating. People have been coming to me for shots, but I really want a simple, somewhat standardized setup that still leaves room for creativity. I'm trying to nail down the fundamentals of my setup as quickly as possible so that I can show consistency in my portfolio sooner rather than later.

This conversation has been indispensable in helping me toward that goal. Thanks!

elliotn said:

TatTwamAsi said:

How low do you think he pushes his focal length and can you post an example of the photo you see him doing it? I understand if that's asking too much from a stranger online haha.

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In the image on the right he is using a wide angle lens.

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Why do you say that?

elliotn said:

In the image on the left he is using something longer. I'll take a guess and suggest that he's using a 24-70 f2.8 zoom for much of this work.

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On FF? Again, why do you think that?

elliotn said:

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elliotn said:

TatTwamAsi said:

There's an idea! Although it would affect the catch light I'm going for. Still I'd love to try it. What do you suggest for locking it in place when it's not fully open?

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Yes, if you're trying to imitate Noles's set-up, you need a bigger not a smaller key light. Instead of collapsing your brolly, you need to bring it closer to your subject.
Re. focal length. Looking at his website, it is clear that Noles uses a range of focal lengths for his portraits, from wide to standard to telephoto.

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I didn't see much evidence of wide for his headshots, but I only had a quick look around. Can you point to any particular examples?

TatTwamAsi said:

TatTwamAsi said:

Yes, if you're trying to imitate Noles's set-up, you need a bigger not a smaller key light. Instead of collapsing your brolly, you need to bring it closer to your subject.

Click to expand...

I can't get any closer to my subject without going out of the range of a typical focal length for portraiture.

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You shot your example from about 5' didn't you? I think you should rethink what is typical portrait range and what are typical head shot focal lengths. A shooting distance of 4'-6' (1.2-1.8M) is ID photo distance, not portrait distance. Get out to 2.5m-3.5m (8'-12').

The head shot photographers I know (I got into photography through theatre) typically use 100-200mm for headshots.

I don't know Noles. Since he tends to use vertical orientation but not cropped to 4:5, and the head is often only 1/2 the frame height, I doubt he gets out to 200mm very often. If he is using a prime it is probably a 135mm, and maybe a 105mm. If a zoom a 70-200.

TatTwamAsi said:

So far in my tests it does seem to distort the face in a way that his photos don't. How low do you think he pushes his focal length

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I doubt he gets under 100mm. I had a quick look around his site, especially looking for models with features similar to your model. For your particular model, with heavy eyebrows, large nose and lips well ahead of chin, I expect he'd prefer a longer shooting distance, and would be using 135mm prime or something around 160mm on a zoom.

TatTwamAsi said:

and can you post an example of the photo you see him doing it? I understand if that's asking too much from a stranger online haha.

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Sorry, I don't post any of my work on this site.

FingerPainter said:

elliotn said:

TatTwamAsi said:

There's an idea! Although it would affect the catch light I'm going for. Still I'd love to try it. What do you suggest for locking it in place when it's not fully open?

Click to expand...

Yes, if you're trying to imitate Noles's set-up, you need a bigger not a smaller key light. Instead of collapsing your brolly, you need to bring it closer to your subject.
Re. focal length. Looking at his website, it is clear that Noles uses a range of focal lengths for his portraits, from wide to standard to telephoto.

Click to expand...

I didn't see much evidence of wide for his headshots, but I only had a quick look around. Can you point to any particular examples?

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I've already pointed to an example. But I agree that most of his shots are using standard or short telephoto. Here are a couple of others that seem quite wide:

FingerPainter said:

elliotn said:

TatTwamAsi said:

How low do you think he pushes his focal length and can you post an example of the photo you see him doing it? I understand if that's asking too much from a stranger online haha.

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In the image on the right he is using a wide angle lens.

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Why do you say that?

FingerPainter said:

In the image on the left he is using something longer. I'll take a guess and suggest that he's using a 24-70 f2.8 zoom for much of this work.

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On FF? Again, why do you think that?

FingerPainter said:

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The only way to deduce focal length from a headshot is to get a feel for the relationship between the facial features, the neck and the body. If the ears recede behind the face and the neck and shoulders appear distant, then it is likely that a wide angle lens has been used.

(People come in different shapes and sizes, some with small necks and pinned-back ears, so it's hard to make an authoritive judgement re. focal lengths.)