Small K mount eco system and not growing

Space the final frontier said:

Holger Bargen said:

If you use Pentax cameras since 40 years, you should know a big and wide K mount eco system.

I am appoximately the same amount of years within this system - and it fills numerous bags. I think it is enough - my wife things it's too big (by far!)!

What are you missing?

Best regards

Holger

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I think you brought up a fundamental issue: Pentax customers are not buying and renewing equipment.

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I often update my camera body - but regarding lenses the number of new lenses I bought is very limited.

I also use Pentax cameras at work and we buy new cameras and lenses - and I never had to send one of my old lenses out for repair but the some of new lenses had to be sent to service.

If there are lenses that bring any improvement to my system I would be willing to buy them.

But actually it seems so that the companies almost hardly managed to overcome the limits that were caused by a lead-free glass and compromises for fast autofocus in lens design.

My old lenses still shine. If I would buy new lenses I would think of FA* primes. I do hope for a new 85mm 1.4 and a follow up of the 200 A* macro lens. I want high end - but unfortunatelly I just have the option to try to buy lenses from generations before - or to buy Zeiss and adapt them with Leitax.

There is a reason why Pentax customers don't buy a lot of new lenses - and it would no difference to change the system as all the other companies are facing the same problems.

At work I have the 60-250 mm zoom lens on a K3ii. This lens shines - but I would not buy it for my private use as the limit for photos from near by is too far for me - and SDM errors are no fun and I simply don't want to have them. The AF lenses from F generation almost never fail (at least the ones I own) - they are fast and loud - but they work for me - but I can't buy them as new.

Except of the new bodies ebay is my main source for the hugh pk universe. I spend a lot of time there and it is some kind of hunting to get lenses I still want - but it becomes less as nearly all of my needs are satisfied.

I don't have a good extreme tele lens with a good AF-system. I own an old Novoflex 400 mm and 600 mm lens + 2x TEX converter. I almost never use it and for this reason it it not fast enough for birding - but on the other hand in the region I live wo almost have bo chance for birding as it is very densly occupied by human activity. And if I would buy one ith AF (lets say the new 150-450 mm Pentax lens - the AF would not be fast enough. But that's no problem for me as I don't take this kind of photos. I prefer macro and landscape, occasinoally portrait photos.

Thus, I have everything I need in my Pentax universe - and I still like it. The grass is not greener on the the other side. It's hard to overcome things that are close to perfect - even Pentax itself has this problem ,,,

Best regards

Holger

Space the final frontier said:

Alex Sarbu said:

If I read about in-system competition and Chinese makers and so on, I'm basically reading one word: cheap. This is not a priority 1 direction for the K-mount.

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Sounds like a desperate argument.

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Desperate? How about... realistic?

Space the final frontier said:

Competition does not necessarily mean cheap. Without competition, efficient cars of today would not have existed. Without competition, Tamron and Sigma will not each bring out their respective 150-600. Whether you need it is another matter.

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There is a problem here. Competition already exists - Pentax is competing with the other brands. Pentax is one of the brands pushing forward the camera industry.

But, you were talking about within-system competition, and included Chinese makers as example. What kind of competition is that, if not based on price?

Alex

Mark Ransom said:

Alex Sarbu said:

There is no such thing as an ecosystem, when talking about interchangeable lens camera systems. All we have is a bunch of tools which might or might not be suitable for certain specific usages.

If I read about in-system competition and Chinese makers and so on, I'm basically reading one word: cheap. This is not a priority 1 direction for the K-mount.

In recent times we've seen some major developments within the K-mount, it's not a coincidence they're happening under Ricoh and not Hoya. We finally have the FF line - and that by itself should've put to rest any speculation that Ricoh doesn't care about Pentax. We finally have long lenses, I think the last one from the film era was launched in 1997 and discontinued in 2004 or so. We will soon have the first truly high end primes in a while. Pentax is getting back in the game.

And I hope, I really hope that people complaining about the small and not growing Pentax K line have a substantial amount of money saved up, so they will buy the new products when the K-mount line will be expanded again.

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Alex, I love how you jump in when someone maligns Pentax. But in this case you're dead wrong.

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Am I?

Mark Ransom said:

It's not about what you can achieve,

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Everything should start with that.

Mark Ransom said:

it's about confidence in the brand. Being supported by 3rd party vendors is a way of validating your decision and opening up possibilities that are not possible otherwise. It was a big factor in my initial decision to purchase the *ist-DS, and the Tamron 24-135 I bought shortly thereafter has remained my favorite lens for many years.

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Trouble is, confidence is subjective.

Speaking of the *istDS, you were feeling confident then? Well, at that time Pentax continued to make only rehashes of the *istD/DS platform. Not very confidence inspiring.

Then, bang! we had the amazing K10D. Awesome, confidence inspiring move. And Hoya killed Pentax Corporation.

Mark Ransom said:

The FF line was certainly a welcome development, and indeed reflects well on Ricoh's intentions for the brand. But that decision was made many years ago,

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5 years.

Mark Ransom said:

and it's uncertain whether their commitment is still at the same level.

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Sure; it might be higher.

Mark Ransom said:

The delay in releasing the promised FF primes is certainly troubling.

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I'm not aware of any delay.

The DA* 60-250 was delayed and reworked. The D FA* 70-200 was delayed. The primes? First one is expected by the end of this fiscal year, AFAIK.

Mark Ransom said:

And it's disturbing that most of their FF zooms can be bought for other systems at a discount to what they cost in K-mount.

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Uhh... that's not true; there are 2 such lenses and frankly, in the U.S. the difference is small. The D FA* 70-200mm, D FA 150-450mm, D FA 28-105mm are all Pentax designs and can't be bought for other systems at any price.

2 out of 5 is nowhere near "most"

Let's be accurate in our complaints, ok?

Mark Ransom said:

In the end you have to feel good about the system you buy into.

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Is there any chance to agree on one definition of "good"?

Alex

Space the final frontier said:

I think you brought up a fundamental issue: Pentax customers are not buying and renewing equipment.

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Lol.

There are quite a few people here who bought into the K-1 and the new D FA lenses - you could take a look at my gear list, but I'm nowhere near the highest spender.

Alex

Gary Martin said:

Dale108 said:

Unfortunately. this issue has made me stop growing my Pentax investment and also investing in m4/3 (Olympus). Recently, I have sold off much of my excess Pentax gear to get to the bare bones FF kit with 24-70, 70-200 and 150-450. For primes I kept FA 50 and FA 35. While this is a great kit, I will not invest in any more Pentax gear unless I see Ricoh moving ahead with system. Sadly, this may not happen as Pentax is so niche it hardly makes a blip on market.

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I've been doing the exact same: an m4/3 setup to compliment my K-1. I looked long and hard at Fuji, but lack of in-body IS and issues with a Lightroom workflow steered me to m4/3, not to mention being a more affordable proposition. And Sony's lens lineup is ridiculous: a mix of ludicrously expensive Zeiss lenses and crappy consumer glass.

I will not buy any more Pentax gear, other than the occasional used lens, until I see some direction from Ricoh. I was prepared to buy some new FF prime lenses for my K-1 ("The Year of the Prime"), but I'm now spending that money elsewhere.

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I am still on the fence whether to get the KP or move forward, the KP is the camera I wished it was released 3 years ago... but now I am starting to look for smaller, lighter options if I can muster the money.

Space the final frontier said:

A healthy eco system must have diversity and competition. This is the main point of my original post. I used Sigma and Tamron ( and Samyang) leaving k mount to illustrate the point. Pentax is slowly becoming a niche brand but does not have the prestige of Leica or Zeiss.

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Not necessarily so. One of the finest systems ever made was the Contax G which only ever consisted of a couple of bodies and a handful of (Zeiss) lenses. Nothing beats a very clear idea of a target market and the actual use the equipment will be put to, superb and consistent quality, and marketing which can put all that before the customer simply and effectively.

In other words, “Why buy product X?” has been fully answered. Third-party items and a sprawling array of kit are nothing compared to this one-pointedness, imho. I guess some day Ricoh may get around to tackling “Why buy Pentax?” but we aren’t there yet. Has anyone heard a Ricoh executive address this simple question recently, or even at all? I wonder what they’d say. Anyway, the point is that if Ricoh ever come up with a good answer, they don’t actually need a huge Pentax ecosystem, just a very carefully targeted one that’s sufficient for its intended purpose.

Dale108 said:

Unfortunately. this issue has made me stop growing my Pentax investment and also investing in m4/3 (Olympus). Recently, I have sold off much of my excess Pentax gear to get to the bare bones FF kit with 24-70, 70-200 and 150-450. For primes I kept FA 50 and FA 35. While this is a great kit, I will not invest in any more Pentax gear unless I see Ricoh moving ahead with system. Sadly, this may not happen as Pentax is so niche it hardly makes a blip on market.

Dale

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Bloody 'ell, that's a barebones kit, FF with 24-450 covered and a couple of primes thrown in.... I suspect Ricoh would be pretty happy if they could sell that barebones kit over the last couple of years to every member of this forum. To me that's a pretty full kit. I doubt Ricoh would get the message that you are upset with their system not growing.

Dale108 said:

Unfortunately. this issue has made me stop growing my Pentax investment and also investing in m4/3 (Olympus). Recently, I have sold off much of my excess Pentax gear to get to the bare bones FF kit with 24-70, 70-200 and 150-450. For primes I kept FA 50 and FA 35. While this is a great kit, I will not invest in any more Pentax gear unless I see Ricoh moving ahead with system. Sadly, this may not happen as Pentax is so niche it hardly makes a blip on market.

Dale

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Wow. If that's "bare bones", Pentax should do their best at keeping you ;-)

Do you plan to buy the D FA* primes when they will be released?

Alex

Alex Sarbu said:

Space the final frontier said:

I think you brought up a fundamental issue: Pentax customers are not buying and renewing equipment.

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Lol.

There are quite a few people here who bought into the K-1 and the new D FA lenses - you could take a look at my gear list, but I'm nowhere near the highest spender.

Alex

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You just verify an important point. If there are no new product, people are not buying. AND, where is competition? Are there any other manufacturers (Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, etc) announcing new lenses in K-mount?

bob5050 said:

Space the final frontier said:

[...] Pentax customers are not buying and renewing equipment.

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You have data showing they differ significantly from Canikon customers in this regard?

And in any case, how am I, as a Pentax user, damaged by not having to pay for excessive gear turn-over?

bobD

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You have a valid point. However, if the same % of user base is buying equipment, the other major brands have much larger numbers to justify 3rd party vendors to support. My point is always about the availability of multiple vendors support. Have you considered this angle or you believe the % is much higher for Pentax user base?

Alex Sarbu said:

No, that's wrong. I lost nothing by having the option to buy the K-1 and the D FA 150-450mm, regardless of what other brands were doing. I will lose nothing by having the option to buy the new D FA primes, regardless of what other brands are doing.

In this case, growth is growth (and proof by analogy is fraud).

Alex

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I am sure that what your boss was telling you when you get your raise.

Space the final frontier said:

Alex Sarbu said:

Space the final frontier said:

I think you brought up a fundamental issue: Pentax customers are not buying and renewing equipment.

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Lol.

There are quite a few people here who bought into the K-1 and the new D FA lenses - you could take a look at my gear list, but I'm nowhere near the highest spender.

Alex

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You just verify an important point. If there are no new product, people are not buying.

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How about the existing products? I bought some.

Space the final frontier said:

AND, where is competition? Are there any other manufacturers (Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, etc) announcing new lenses in K-mount?

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What do you mean by competition, precisely? Pentax is competing with Canon, Nikon etc. - but that's not what you're talking about.

Alex

Space the final frontier said:

Alex Sarbu said:

No, that's wrong. I lost nothing by having the option to buy the K-1 and the D FA 150-450mm, regardless of what other brands were doing. I will lose nothing by having the option to buy the new D FA primes, regardless of what other brands are doing.

In this case, growth is growth (and proof by analogy is fraud).

Alex

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I am sure that what your boss was telling you when you get your raise.

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40 > 34, that's mathematics.

And "proof by analogy is fraud" (Bjarne Stroustrup). You have to prove that having 6 more lenses (most covering different areas/segments) gives you less; sorry, you will not get away with irrelevant analogies.

Specifically, you should strive to convince me that having the FF and wildlife/sports lens options is worse than not having them. Good luck with that!

Alex

Alex Sarbu said:

Alex Sarbu said:

AND, where is competition? Are there any other manufacturers (Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, etc) announcing new lenses in K-mount?

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What do you mean by competition, precisely? Pentax is competing with Canon, Nikon etc. - but that's not what you're talking about.

Alex

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Can you mount a non K-mount lens on K-mount?

For other major brands, there are multiple vendors competing for customers. I am sure you understand but refuse to admit it. But on the other hand, you may indeed don't get it, in which case it is hopeless trying to get the idea across.

Alex Sarbu said:

Specifically, you should strive to convince me that having the FF and wildlife/sports lens options is worse than not having them. Good luck with that!

Alex

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I arrived at the conclusion that it is indeed hopeless to convince you. There are some basic concepts that you just don't seem to understand or refuse to accept.

But one more try. Can you buy Sigma or Tamron 150 - 600 in K-mount? No. This is just an example of the type of competition I am talking about. Not having this type of competition makes the eco system small. Sigma and Tamron dropped K-mount and that makes the eco system not growing.

These are symptoms of an emerging problem. I have been a long term (~40 years) Pentax user, I don't want to see K-mount fade into history. Ignoring it is not going to help. Don't you get it? I probably should not expect anything from you.

Space the final frontier said:

Alex Sarbu said:

Space the final frontier said:

AND, where is competition? Are there any other manufacturers (Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron, etc) announcing new lenses in K-mount?

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What do you mean by competition, precisely? Pentax is competing with Canon, Nikon etc. - but that's not what you're talking about.

Alex

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Can you mount a non K-mount lens on K-mount?

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Can Pentax act like a monopoly?

Space the final frontier said:

For other major brands, there are multiple vendors competing for customers. I am sure you understand but refuse to admit it. But on the other hand, you may indeed don't get it, in which case it is hopeless trying to get the idea across.

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Get what? You cannot expect me to understand that which you cannot, or will not explain. Besides, explaining is an excellent tool for understanding one's own ideas ;-)

So, yes, I get it that you're talking about "multiple vendors competing" by launching products for the same system. And that somehow this is not related to price (despite mentioning the Chinese manufacturers) nor to what you can do with said system.

More than that, sorry, but I have no clue what you're thinking.

Alex