Anyone thinking of 300D?

caterpillar · Sep 4, 2003

With the 300D review or previews out from Phil, DCR, and IR, and with dozens of sample images already posted as to the image quality and lens performance of the standard kit, anybody in this forum seriously thinking of getting one?

Two years ago, I paid over U$800 for my DC-4800 (with 128mb CF) and I spent another U$150 for batteries and an external flash. Now you can get a 6.3mp dslr for slightly over than that with the same range as my old dc-4800.

What I found appealing, to my surprise just a few hours ago, was the 300D was just a tad smaller than the Pentax *ist D! And it is as light. This means that the 300D is not a burden to carry at all.

Of course I am looking at it seriously not just because of its size and weight, but it's image quality is really very good at ISOs 400 and will pass the 4R or 5R (5 x 7) prints at ISO 800. Even at ISO 1600, some of the images can still be cleaned up to be passable as ISO 800 quality. And for U$999 (It is U$1,100 in our country but that is with VAT already), it is really mighty tempting.

No, I am not trolling here. You guys know my postings as I have been in here for about 4 months or more already. I just want to know how the OTF feels about the 300D. It is hard to ignore this product and will have an impact on us all. Besides, it will complement or make up for the weaknessess of my c-750. This was why I said, "thinking," not "switching" to the 300D.

And I am keeping my c-750, with all its limitations! It's still the most portable to me and it's 10x zoom is a big, big plus. And because its "pogi" points (that's "handsome" in english) outweighs it's weak points by a large margin.

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Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Sandman · Sep 4, 2003

Caterpillar,

Oh there are more than a few of us interested in this cam! Dboogie and I have been swapping e-mails hourly over the past few days about this cam. Like Phil said in the review, the release of this camera is a red letter day in the history of digital cameras. Even if one is not specifically interested in owning this camera, one has to be interested in the significance of this release. It is also at least interesting at HOW this camera was released.... no hype, very little fanfare, no advanced notice, just released and it will be available in weeks!

Compare and contrast this with the Olympus E-1. It is the E-1 that was supposed to be the history-making digital camera release, but they were trumped in a huge way with the release of this 300D. I'll bet even mention of "KISS, 300D, or REBEL" at Olympus Headquarters are ALL grounds for immediate dismissal.

Personally, I'm torn right now between the 300D and the 10D, but either way, unless something earthshattering happens in the next few weeks, my next cam will have EOS on it!

Great times in Digi-cam world!

Cheers,

jim

--
galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/sandman3

Bill Huber · Sep 4, 2003

I have thought about it a lot.

I do think that it is a turning point for the digital camera world with this camera. I am sure that all the camera companies are really taking note of this camera.

The price is right, the features are very good and the lenses you can get are first class. The quality of the pictures looks very good and I am sure they will be as good if not better on the production models.

Now there is one big thing that has been stated on this forum many times "It is not the camera that takes the picture it is the person behind the lens" and that is very true.

I will keep snapping away with the old UZI and E-10 for a while and just see what happens with all the others coming out in the next year or two.

I really wish there was a standard in the lens world. It has been a problems for 35s for years. I started out with a screw mount and then that went by the way and then there was this company and that for a few years and then things changed again. I have had a boat for years, and I can put any motor on it I want, why can't I have a camera that I can put any lens on it I want.

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No, I'm not a Pro, but I did read the Olympus Talk Forum last night.
Bill Huber, Fort Worth, Tx
http://www.pbase.com/wlhuber

Brian D. Schneider · Sep 4, 2003

--I ordered one, and I am keeping my 5050 & 740 ( cant put a RebelD in my pocket)
Brian Schneider

RichardR · Sep 4, 2003

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http://www.pbase.com/richardr
E-10&C-2100UZ&C-3000Z&D-380&Fuji2600Z
PBase Supporter

Gary S · Sep 4, 2003

I'm not thinking seriously about buying just yet, but I have been following many of the threads about it and of course was excited to see Phil's review today. I love the idea of what this might do to the rest of the market. Quoted from Phil's conclusion:

"There's no doubt that there is an important place for cameras such as Sony's DSC-F828 and Minolta's DiMAGE A1, but you would have to be wearing blinkers not to realize that anyone considering spending over $1000 on an all-in-one camera such as that will now put the EOS 300D Kit high on their list."

It will take some time to see how other manufacturers react to it, but I'm excited about the possibilities. I wonder what kind of price drops we might see on the all-in-one cameras before too long.

Framer · Sep 4, 2003

DOUGLAS2 · Sep 4, 2003

No doubt about it; I'm a confirmed slr fan. Always have been; never hid it.
Don't recall if I've posted that here (I think) or just in e-mails.

EVENTUALLY I'll have one of them dSLR's, just not next month.
Been lurkin' 'n postin' on Canon board about a month now.

And as I've said before, ain't gonna dump my c5050. Each has it's time and place. And when that time comes, it'll pro'bly be joined with a dye-sub printer; don't even wanna START with an inkjet!!

ShudderBug · Sep 4, 2003

I've kind of got my heart set on the 828 depending on how the noise issue is resolved. Will watch future DLSR's, but I don't think I want to mess with changing lenses.

I've seen the new sample pics on the 300D on both this and a competing website. No doubt the 300D will be a superb camera, but I don't think it is for me.

Caterpillar wrote:

Brian · Sep 4, 2003

In the next year I think one will see a number of cameras this size and price range pop up. In order to keep up with Canon, the other manufactures will need to put more features into the camera.

Digital cameras, especialy DSLRs, are still very much in their infancy and I have the feeling that there are still huge improvements right around the corner.

The 300D does get me excited about the price.

--
Brian

C-7OO, and some other stuff

caterpillar · Sep 4, 2003

Jim (Sandman), Gary, Brian, Richard, etc:

I am glad for all your responses. I really do not like the "lock" that one gets into when you move to a camera brand. If it were a fuji S2 at least that's a nikon mount and in case fuji flounders (or Kodak) I can pick up future Nikon cameras.

My beef with the E-1 is not the noise or quality of build. It is the cost and the uncertain future of 4/3. I also feel that I am paying for features that are not that valuable to me. I know that Olympus has the technological capability of pulling things off, but righ now, because it is my money, I'd rather sit and wait by the sidelines till they can prove that the 4/3 system can snowball on its own.

As for *ist D, it's not its cost, but sustainability. Can Pentax sustain it 3-5 years from now? Or will be the *ist D. I am beginning to feel that the Sigma SD-9 will be the last of its line. At the most it will be upgraded 2 years from now. The bad thing is your lenses are locked to Sigma and the only way to use it is to go back to film. It will not be any different with Pentax.

With Nikon, the D100 is a good camera. But even at U$1,400 (if they pull it down eventually to that level), it is still too expensive. You can get a decent lineup with a 300D for that price. Not stellar, but workable.

And so, Jim and the others are right - This month will be the month that the digicam world has changed.

I remember the year 1995, that was the year that HP released the first sub U$1,000 CD-R writer (no RW then). I was one of those who first got to use it. It was a 2x model. It was a time when CD-R drive was around U$2,400. That was a milestone. Today, you can buy a 50x24x50 for around U$60. Amazing!

The 300D is the same. It is not because the technology is new. It is because, for the first time, the barrier has been breached. The compromises in quality and AF speed is surmounted, even if the camera is "crippled" to some degree. 6 months from now, it is not uncommon to see this U$999 camera taking pictures as good as the 10D. Only in certain situations will the 300D not be up par to do the job.

Will I buy a 300D?

Maybe.

I know that the 300D with the lens kit will be U$850 in about 8 months, when everything has settled down. And if the rumours are true about the Nikon D70, then we expect the price do drop a little. Even the 10D will be knocking the u$1,000 mark in 8 months (as they will likely to introduce an 8mp model).

My other option is to sit this one out, let the first movers pave the trail and bring out the bugs on the 300D to the light, much the same way the 10D had a long spell of AF issues. After all, in my calendar, the best time really to buy DSLRs or ILSs, is still 2nd half of 2004 or 2005. By that time we will see the prices stabilize, the 1st quarter photokina or whatever exhibit that is, we will know what the other player's offering are and make better decisions.

Or I could go for the D30 for now, if the price is right. The trouble with this, is that once I get any Canon equipment, I know that it will be the beginning of the lens lock for me. It means that I will be choosing Canon lenses from there on end.

Well, I will indeed be handling a used D30 this evening (as per advice of some kind folks some weeks back) from someone who wants to sell his stuff. So, I may not be getting a 300D, but still I might be tempted to go Canon anyway. Or others can pick up the scruffs off the table and start hunting for used but good D30s for a song. I am sure they are bound to drop to U$500 whereabouts soon.

Either way, indeed, these are exciting times!

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Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Brett DiMichele · Sep 4, 2003

Small and Light are not selling points for a Pro body camera IMHO I want
a large and fairly hefty camera body I want quality and plastic is not what I
want to shell out a grand for..

My next camera will be an E1 no doubt about it.

Phil Wheeler · Sep 4, 2003

Yes .. partly for prime focus astrophotography with my telescopes.

Phil

Dimitrios · Sep 4, 2003

Besides that I will always need a small lightweight camera, I also think that the other manufacturers reaction will be appropriate. I suspect that the consumer version of E-1 will be the right thing for me (size &weight), if they manage to controll noise levels at ISO800 at an acceptable point (much better than the ISO400 on my C5050!). At that moment, 300D is too cheap and E-1 is too professional (full metal body, weather protection etc) for me.

Sensors can be further improved. Canon is on the right direction with its cmos process. Others will follow or they might improve their ccds. Competition is needed in this market and I hope we will not end in a Canon monopoly, like what happened in the cpu market with Intel.
--
Dimitrios
Olympus C-5050 & Minolta Dynax 7xi SLR

Kim R · Sep 4, 2003

Now Bill. I have seen many of your ideas & realize many have been good. This has to be one of your best though.

I to will be with my Uzi and E-10 for some time to come. I can see digital making hugh leaps and prices making huge drops in the next couple of years. I'll wait.

--

'The very fact that I find myself in agreement with you other minds perturbs me, so that I hunt for points of divergence, feeling the urgent need to make it clear that at least I reached the same conclusions by a different route.'
~~KimR~~

Michael Meissner · Sep 4, 2003

While at the present state of my finances I can't afford it, I do find myself fanatisizing about it (as you probably notice by my posts over there). However, the more I look at it, I feel I might be hampered by the arbitrary restrictions Canon put on it so it wouldn't compete against the 10D (and whatever camera soon will replace the 10D). After using the UZI for 1.5 years, I keep finding things that the 300D doesn't do that I like doing or could imagine doing (limiting continous mode to 4 shots, rear curtain flash, flash exposure composition, spot metering, having instant meter reading & DOF preview in the viewfinder). Some of these are 'fixed' in the 10D, some are just a fact of life with a DSLR. The white balance and underexposure problems in the review are two other things to think about.

In terms of composing pictures, I wish they had 15 focal points instead of 7 so that you could set the focus point for the sides above and below the middle line, which would give you closer to the rule of 3rds. Since the 10D is similarly limited, it is understandable. I suspect if I bought the camera, I would never enable more than one focus point at a time.

Besides the obvious things (AF speed, multiple lens support, ISO 1600, 6 megapixels) some things that look interesting include: Custom WB support, WB bracketing, auto rotation, histogram after the shot, not having the power switch also be the reset switch, more contrast/saturation/contrast settings, bulb exposure).

caterpillar · Sep 5, 2003

Then 2004 is the best time to really consider things seriously. That's when everybody else has come out with their counter to the 300D. Olympus will have their E-1 and we will known by then how it pans out. So with the *istD, and maybe Nikon's D70. In this way, you can see the options more clearly and decide wisely which one to pick.

I also think that manufacturer's must begin considering using larger sensors and the use of phase detection for AF for the next generation P&S. So, you are Panasonic, or you are a Sony, and your forte is not lenses; so why not get the best parts that give it an edge and use it?

Think about solving the problems of noise by using the D100's sensor or something similar, with phase detection in a fixed lens system and offer this at U$700 on a 28-100mm range. Or if that is too difficult, a 38-114mm.

I am not sure if that will have a market, but when you think about it, what is the next wave of improvement for the p&s? IS? The c-740/750 and the m700, 6490, Fz1/Fz2, etc have shown you don't have to have IS to sell well. Pushing it to 5-6mp or even 8mp for P&S? The lackluster performance of the G5 or the Oly C50 shows that pixel count is not that a source of competitive advantage. So with adding raw capabilities, panaroma stitching, histogram, etc. These are cosmetic incremental innovations.

But the 2 most pet peeve of P&S'ers have not been adressed, AF- speed & accuracy; and image quality. These are the same qualities that basically attract many to dslrs.

I am stabbing in the air here, but if we really look at the features that matters most, these are the two most important once that needs to be solved. The SLR side is only incidental to this. Consider this: Would you buy a DC with a fast AF and an image quality of a D100 or 300D (ISO 400-800 clean) even if there is no mirror that slaps out of the way, but instead using a EVF/LCD or optical finder, in a 38-105mm (converted to 135) lens, f2.8-4.5, no IS, with the rest of the function similar to a typical p&S, for U$700? Is this possible? Is this reasonable?

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Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

caterpillar · Sep 5, 2003

Good points, Michael. These are the trade offs of the one must make. I believe that the DSLR that I really "want" is still 2-3 years away. OTH, when I see the poor image quality of my c-750 in low light (which I have salvaged somehow in PS lately), the 300D becomes enticing. The c-750 loves lots of light. Even moderate light, it does well, but when it is murky, it fails badly.

As for the other limitations, I can only say for myself, that I have had an F3 for 20 years and I didn't mind manual focusing, didn't mind no IS, didn't mind no 7 focus points, no spot metering, no auto WB, no saturation controls, no contrast control, a heavy body with lens, etc. I have survived and perhaps because of the lack of these, it has made me a better photographer LOL!

But what cannot find a work around to a large extent is focus lag (in a difficult to manually focus c-750) and image quality especially in difficult lighting conditions. This is why something like the 300D is palatable to me. But then again, it will be an interim solution because, of as what you said, limited functionalities in some areas.

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Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Delbert · Sep 5, 2003

My Ebay handle is Boychoirdad. I am going to sell everything (except the UZI) and get a D rebel and an EOS film body so I can share lenses accessories. I’ll wait until I have it to sell the E-10. Two things I’m certain of…eventually DSLR will come down in price to match their film counterparts, under $500 for a decent consumer body. And quality will continue to go up. Problem is, I want one now and I think the D Rebel is a great value in this arena. I paid almost $800 for my C-3000 almost three years ago.
--
http://www.pbase.com/delbert
Delbert...just hangin around

Brian G. · Sep 5, 2003

If it truly spot metered, and enabled me to pick my own metering, I'd be in line for one. As it is, I'm just happy to have it drive prices down and quality up, while I sit back and wait for the next round. There is definitely a DSLR in my future, though.

~~Brian~~

--
~~Brian~~

S30 Gallery: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/spiritmist/My%20Web%20Gallery/index.htm
C750 Gallery:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/spiritmist/C750WebGallery/index.htm

Anyone thinking of 300D?

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