DSLR recommendations - No Holds Barred...

From what I read on this forum and phil's review it looks to me like the 14n is strictly a studio beast because of the noise if you use anything over 100iso. Firmware update seem to address this but only by applying too much software correction and thus removing data that can be meaningfull from the image.

--
Gaetan J.

Hi Bern. Thanks for the steer. Several others have also recommended the 1Ds. Although I've read and been very impressed with the professional reviews of the 1Ds, I'm particularly interested in the reactions of those who've had a chance to use the camera system and develop some detailed opinions of its strenghts and weaknesses. If you could provide any additional insight into the 1Ds, including your subjective findings, I'd be curious to hear them.

Thanks again, Bern.

Cheers

Bern Caughey said:

Unless your considering digibacks, there is nothing that compares
to the 1Ds. The 14n is not even in the same league, or are ANY of
the other dSLRs.

No holds barred = 1Ds

Regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

Click to expand...

Tinbird said:

I'm particularly interested in the
reactions of those who've had a chance to use the camera system and
develop some detailed opinions of its strenghts and weaknesses.

Click to expand...

This is a three page long thread from Rob Galbraith's 1D/1Ds forum. It is titled "Can 1Ds replace RZ's?".

http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB18&Number=119708&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

There are some great photographers participating in that thread & you should check out their websites. They are all completely digital & currently use Canon 1 series cameras exclusively. Sokolsky & Mastrianni still use the 1D as well as the 1Ds.

Melvin Sokolsky is a recognized master & has a well known book called "Seeing Fashion".

Sokolsky
http://www.Sokolsky.com

Mark Tucker
http://www.MarkTucker.com

Mastrianni
http://www.mastrianniphoto.com

James Russell
http://www.russellrutherford.com/rutherford.html
http://www.pbase.com/russruth

Enough said?

Regards,
Bern Caughey
--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

The cheapest DSLR on the market - and user of a truly revolutionary sensor - many people have compared prints of 16"+ and thought them to be as good a any of the high end DSLR's...

having seen phils review, and most importantly the SD9's ability to resolve fine detail (like the serration of tiles on a roof) - where the d60 (and other cameras with similar sensors) can only see a blurry straight line...

it hasnt got the same usability, or low light performance of a ID, or a 10D - but in terms on pure image quality and colour reproduction - few of the 'pro' cameras can claim the crown over it...

I know pros do use them, to great effect - so shouldnt it be a viable option?

Harley

Tinbird said:

Two years ago, after nearly two decades of loyalty to professional
35mm SLR film cameras and lenses, I decided to take a peek into the
rapidly developing art of digital photography. My modest
introduction to this Amazing New World came in the form of the
Canon G-2. I have greatly enjoyed the learning experience that this
little camera has given me. I'm now interested in taking the next
step, with the purchase of a digital SLR. I wish to "retire" my
film cameras and equipment and transition entirely to digital.
Considering the needs and desires that I've bulleted below, I'd
really be grateful for any thoughtful, pertinent feedback that any
of you might offer regarding appropriate choices in camera systems.

• My greatest passion lies in travel/adventure photography,

particularly landscapes/cityscapes.

• I prefer the wide, sweeping views of wide and ultra-wide lenses.
• I print most of what I shoot: 11x14's and larger are common, so

very high resolution and fidelity are important to me.

• I enjoy exploring the creative possibilities afforded by various

tools and techniques, such as neutral density filtration+very slow
shutter speeds, extreme or unusual angles, multiple exposures, etc.

• The vast majority of my work is with natural light (sometimes at

night), so flash-system capabilities, though useful, are peripheral
to my needs.

• Regarding the camera/lense hardware itself: smaller, lighter,

faster, and quieter is preferable.

• Barring compelling advice to the contrary, I'd prefer to retain

CF/Microdrive compatibility.

• USB connectivity is a must; Firewire (IEEE1394) would be a nice

option.

• I love the way that a fully rotatable LCD allows images to be

composed and captured from very low and/or very high angles, far
away from the photographer's eye, but I suspect I'll have to forgo
this "gimmick" as I've not noticed it available on any DSLR's(?).

• Finally, while I certainly don't wish to waste my money, cost is

not my primary concern...performance is.

Thanks again to all who offer their thoughts.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/harley_m

Thanks very much for your valuable feedback, Harley. A previous poster to this thread has also brought the Sigma to my attention. I'm following up on this lead, studying Phil's review, the Sigma website, and other forums. Again, I really appreciate your input.

Cheers

harley_m said:

having seen phils review, and most importantly the SD9's ability to
resolve fine detail (like the serration of tiles on a roof) - where
the d60 (and other cameras with similar sensors) can only see a
blurry straight line...

it hasnt got the same usability, or low light performance of a ID,
or a 10D - but in terms on pure image quality and colour
reproduction - few of the 'pro' cameras can claim the crown over
it...

I know pros do use them, to great effect - so shouldnt it be a
viable option?

Harley

Tinbird said:

Two years ago, after nearly two decades of loyalty to professional
35mm SLR film cameras and lenses, I decided to take a peek into the
rapidly developing art of digital photography. My modest
introduction to this Amazing New World came in the form of the
Canon G-2. I have greatly enjoyed the learning experience that this
little camera has given me. I'm now interested in taking the next
step, with the purchase of a digital SLR. I wish to "retire" my
film cameras and equipment and transition entirely to digital.
Considering the needs and desires that I've bulleted below, I'd
really be grateful for any thoughtful, pertinent feedback that any
of you might offer regarding appropriate choices in camera systems.

• My greatest passion lies in travel/adventure photography,

particularly landscapes/cityscapes.

• I prefer the wide, sweeping views of wide and ultra-wide lenses.
• I print most of what I shoot: 11x14's and larger are common, so

very high resolution and fidelity are important to me.

• I enjoy exploring the creative possibilities afforded by various

tools and techniques, such as neutral density filtration+very slow
shutter speeds, extreme or unusual angles, multiple exposures, etc.

• The vast majority of my work is with natural light (sometimes at

night), so flash-system capabilities, though useful, are peripheral
to my needs.

• Regarding the camera/lense hardware itself: smaller, lighter,

faster, and quieter is preferable.

• Barring compelling advice to the contrary, I'd prefer to retain

CF/Microdrive compatibility.

• USB connectivity is a must; Firewire (IEEE1394) would be a nice

option.

• I love the way that a fully rotatable LCD allows images to be

composed and captured from very low and/or very high angles, far
away from the photographer's eye, but I suspect I'll have to forgo
this "gimmick" as I've not noticed it available on any DSLR's(?).

• Finally, while I certainly don't wish to waste my money, cost is

not my primary concern...performance is.

Thanks again to all who offer their thoughts.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/harley_m

Click to expand...

Tinbird said:

Tinbird said:

The cheapest DSLR on the market - and user of a truly revolutionary
sensor - many people have compared prints of 16"+ and thought them
to be as good a any of the high end DSLR's...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I have read all the posts with interest. I have not heard you mention price or larger format digital. If quality and versitility was my main objective, I would get the new leaf 22 megapixel back for the mamaya 645 afd with a 24mm ultra wide lens. The quality would be almost 4x5 level and there would be no compromises I can think of other than price,

Mike Steinberg

I agree. The 14n seems to be a "fair-weather" camera, but in a way it's like the SD9 -- good, if you can live within its limitations.

Mike,

The Mamiya 645 with the digital back is definately my choice on the top end too; however, when I looked at image quality (with resolution at the top of the list) the SD-9 definately came out on top for me. Acceptable enlargements can be made up to 20x30 for some subjects. Price and portability are big pluses for it too. As long as one is aware of its limitations, one is in for a definate positive experience. The flip side of the coin is that for 85-95% of most captures the SD-9 image quality exceeds that of the competition in its class.

Of course one can also add in the PhotoPro software that comes with the SD-9 - much better than anything that Canon has. Customer service is a big plus too. I've tuned into some Canon threads where owners have been trying to generate an interest in a class action lawsuit against Canon, claiming that Canon is not responsive to certain "flaws" in the 10D. Contrast that with the Sigma factory people personally calling SD-9 customers to get customer feedback and offer solutions to issues, and I'll take a Sigma product any day over a Canon product. I've been down the garden path personally with Canon and their unresponsiveness - don't want to get suckered into taking that path ever again.

Cliff.

Cliff.

mstein274 said:

reuben said:

reuben said:

The cheapest DSLR on the market - and user of a truly revolutionary
sensor - many people have compared prints of 16"+ and thought them
to be as good a any of the high end DSLR's...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I have read all the posts with interest. I have not heard you
mention price or larger format digital. If quality and versitility
was my main objective, I would get the new leaf 22 megapixel back
for the mamaya 645 afd with a 24mm ultra wide lens. The quality
would be almost 4x5 level and there would be no compromises I can
think of other than price,

Mike Steinberg

Click to expand...

--
Cliff. Johnston

If I understand you correctly, you want to know what is the absolute best way you can go if money was not a hinderance, correct?

A Contax 645AFD with a Kodak 16mp Pro Back. This is what serious photographers would be looking at if they were going to regularly print large prints and wanted no compromise on the print quality.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/kodak-dcs.shtml

Peter Gregg

Peter Gregg said:

If I understand you correctly, you want to know what is the
absolute best way you can go if money was not a hinderance, correct?

A Contax 645AFD with a Kodak 16mp Pro Back.

Peter Gregg

Click to expand...

--
Steinberg photography

peter, the new leaf back has 22 megapixels and fits almost the entire 645 format. Wether it is on a Mamiya or a Contax is of little difference other than I don't know if Contax offers any lens as wide as the 24mm.

Mike Steinberg

You three have certainly given me much food for thought. I've just spent several hours clicking from one website to the next, researching the many links you've provided and suggestions you've shared.

Thanks very much for your very generous sharing of expertise, opinion, and experience. Every bit helps.

Cheers,

Mitch

Cliff. Johnston said:

The Mamiya 645 with the digital back is definately my choice on the
top end too; however, when I looked at image quality (with
resolution at the top of the list) the SD-9 definately came out on
top for me. Acceptable enlargements can be made up to 20x30 for
some subjects. Price and portability are big pluses for it too.
As long as one is aware of its limitations, one is in for a
definate positive experience. The flip side of the coin is that
for 85-95% of most captures the SD-9 image quality exceeds that of
the competition in its class.

Of course one can also add in the PhotoPro software that comes with
the SD-9 - much better than anything that Canon has. Customer
service is a big plus too. I've tuned into some Canon threads
where owners have been trying to generate an interest in a class
action lawsuit against Canon, claiming that Canon is not responsive
to certain "flaws" in the 10D. Contrast that with the Sigma
factory people personally calling SD-9 customers to get customer
feedback and offer solutions to issues, and I'll take a Sigma
product any day over a Canon product. I've been down the garden
path personally with Canon and their unresponsiveness - don't want
to get suckered into taking that path ever again.

Cliff.

Cliff.

mstein274 said:

Cliff. Johnston said:

Cliff. Johnston said:

The cheapest DSLR on the market - and user of a truly revolutionary
sensor - many people have compared prints of 16"+ and thought them
to be as good a any of the high end DSLR's...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I have read all the posts with interest. I have not heard you
mention price or larger format digital. If quality and versitility
was my main objective, I would get the new leaf 22 megapixel back
for the mamaya 645 afd with a 24mm ultra wide lens. The quality
would be almost 4x5 level and there would be no compromises I can
think of other than price,

Mike Steinberg

Click to expand...

--
Cliff. Johnston

Click to expand...

--
APA/LA
http://www.apanational.org/

Tinbird,

Check out the thread pro useage of the SD-9 on this forum (I think that's the one). There are some very interesting comments regarding the 10D and SD-9 by someone who owns and uses both.

Cliff.

Tinbird said:

You three have certainly given me much food for thought. I've just
spent several hours clicking from one website to the next,
researching the many links you've provided and suggestions you've
shared.

Thanks very much for your very generous sharing of expertise,
opinion, and experience. Every bit helps.

Cheers,

Mitch

Click to expand...

--
Cliff. Johnston

I bought the the SD-9 because IMO under good to exc conditions it is unmatched (your interests would play to that). Under fair to poor conditions, its a difficult camera but can produce competitive results with practice. I have only grown more and more impressed with the camera over time. Image quality is incredible.

The 1Ds produces great images too, and as it has 7% more sensors than the SD-9 it should produce similar sharpness and color resolution, even after its blur filter and color interpolation. Though the bandwidth requirements of working with interpolated files can be a bummer. The 1Ds will also give you cheaper WA lens choices than the SD-9, but remember you are spreading roughly the same number of sensors over that wider FOV, so the downside is you lose resolution per unit image area if you do elect to go wider.

After owning a several high quality Bayer mosaic cameras and now a Sigma/Foveon SD-9, I wouldn't go with a 6MP class DSLR. Not enough color resolution or sharpness to take advantage of quality lenses. The 6MP class DSLRs do well in black and white resolution tests where every 1/3rd color sensor can turn near-black and be put to good use (i.e. no color interpolation required with B&W). But in color imaging you need 3 sensors to build full color so the 6M class comes up short on res, and thus produce relatively blurry images. Recommend you read this article for more on color resolution...

http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/essay.html

Since no discussion of the SD-9 would be complete without a sample, this is the one that sold me on the SD-9. After taking so many pics of equal or better sharpness it looks ho hum already, funny how standards change...

I'll second that. After three years of shooting digital and only a few rolls of film, I ended up buying the Nikon CoolScan IV and it's give new life to my photography. I've scanned old (30 years) Kodachromes and the results are fantastic. I've recently done portraits with my F5 and Fujicolor 100 and scanned them and the resulta are stunning.

Leica said:

I've got a Nikon IV ED 35mm neg/slide scanner, and it's awesome. I
believe Nikon make a higher priced 4000 ED and 8000 ED, though I
can only vouch for the IV

Click to expand...

--
CQ

sg10 said:

Since no discussion of the SD-9 would be complete without a sample,
this is the one that sold me on the SD-9. After taking so many
pics of equal or better sharpness it looks ho hum already, funny
how standards change...

Click to expand...

Hello, did you make this photo? And where can I find further samples?

Regards and thanks, Bernie

I am going to recommend that you look at the Kodak 14n. Reasons given below:

Tinbird said:

• My greatest passion lies in travel/adventure photography,

particularly landscapes/cityscapes.

• I prefer the wide, sweeping views of wide and ultra-wide lenses.

Click to expand...

The Kodak 14n is a full frame camera, something I would have thought essential to fit your shooting style. In fact, I'd say it really leaves only the 14n and the Canon 1Ds in the running.

Tinbird said:

• I print most of what I shoot: 11x14's and larger are common, so

very high resolution and fidelity are important to me.

Click to expand...

The 14n has 13.8MP. It has resolution a plenty, more even than the excellent Canon 1Ds

Tinbird said:

• I enjoy exploring the creative possibilities afforded by various

tools and techniques, such as neutral density filtration+very slow
shutter speeds, extreme or unusual angles, multiple exposures, etc.

• The vast majority of my work is with natural light (sometimes at

night), so flash-system capabilities, though useful, are peripheral
to my needs.

Click to expand...

The next iteraton of the 14n firmware promises further improvements in low light capability. However, the 14n is not the first choice for very long exposures.

Tinbird said:

• Regarding the camera/lense hardware itself: smaller, lighter,

faster, and quieter is preferable.

Click to expand...

the 14n in lighter by some way than the 1Ds

Tinbird said:

• Barring compelling advice to the contrary, I'd prefer to retain

CF/Microdrive compatibility.

• USB connectivity is a must; Firewire (IEEE1394) would be a nice

option.

Click to expand...

The 14n is firewire.

Tinbird said:

• I love the way that a fully rotatable LCD allows images to be

composed and captured from very low and/or very high angles, far
away from the photographer's eye, but I suspect I'll have to forgo
this "gimmick" as I've not noticed it available on any DSLR's(?).

Click to expand...

Correct, although the Kodak 14n does sense the shooting orientation and rotates the image automatically in Photodesk.

Tinbird said:

• Finally, while I certainly don't wish to waste my money, cost is

not my primary concern...performance is.

Click to expand...

The 14n is a lot less expensive than the Canon 1Ds, its only serious competitor. If money is really no onject, then you could also look at, say, a 645 medium format camera with portable back. the ProBack 645 is the obvious choice, altough you'll lose some eae of use, and access to all those 35mm lenses.

Tinbird said:

Thanks again to all who offer their thoughts.

Click to expand...

You may have guessed that I own a 14n Its not perfect, but it is a terrific tool.

RIL

Bernie Ess said:

Hello, did you make this photo? And where can I find further samples?

Regards and thanks, Bernie

Click to expand...

Hello,

Its a standard sigma-photo.com sample, you can find samples and RAW test images and the ability to download (and use) the SD-9 RAW processing software on their site.

The SD-9 is an extrememly impressive machine day to day, I went through 5 digital cameras with little satifaction until the SD-9, which floors me.

--
http://www.pbase.com/imageprocessing/sd9