bent christian
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,663
- Solutions
- 1
- Reaction score
- 1,060
Start a new thread. Nobody cares. Off-topic.
-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
Reliable External Hard Disk questions and recommendations
- Thread starter Ben Herrmann
- Start date
Did you know what APC finally admitted? Some 15 million APC protectors are so dangerous as to be removed immediately. APC was making protectors that created house fires. APC choose to also ignore that threat. Other plug-in protectors have that same threat. APC is not the only one with a credibility problem.
That is your example of a company that would be honest in a subjective claim? A cruise ship may confiscate that protector if found in your luggage. They take the fire threat that seriously. Had you read spec numbers (and ignored all subjective claims), then you know why that threat exists.
Your quoted sentence does not come from a spec sheet. APC can lie subjectively - that is legal. Meanwhile, consumers who are not naive read spec numbers. Show me that APC specification that says it protects from all surges? Good luck.
Move on to what companies of integrity state. For example, numbers that define effective protection are provided with each 'whole house' protector. That is a protector that does (for about $1 per appliance) what a UPS does not even do (for maybe $100 per appliance). Lightning may be 20,000 amps. So an effective 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.
Honesty comes with numbers - not from subjective claims found where it is even legal to lie.
Please learn to think like an engineer; not like a scammed consumer. Where is a specification number that defines protection from all types of surges?
Now return to this topic. Best protection already inside computers means a surge does not find an incoming and a completely different outgoing path via a disk drive. If both electric current paths do not exist, then no damage.
However, a protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can compromise that robust and required internal protection. If a surge causes disk drive damage, then the human has compromised protection that should always avert disk drive damage.
Last edited:
Chris Noble
Veteran Member
Actually, HDD reliability is compromised by weak surge and brownout protection. So not off-topic I think.
Please first learn superposition - what is taught to first year EEs. A battery is electrically similar to a wire to that type current. I did not think I had to keep repeating well understood science. To a surge current, that battery is electrically equivalent to a wire. I am not going to teach concepts such as superposition, longitudinal mode currents, and other relevant EE facts. But your 'capacitor like' claim is another popular urban myth only swallowed by the naive; alongside more myths such as a DC transient.
Do you foolishly use APC as proof? Really. Where do so many APC products and component come from? China. Or simply learn about APC's credibility. They finally admitted some 15 million APC protectors must be removed immediately due to fires. Fires that APC ignored for so many years to protect profits. That is your honest company?
Power supplies are required to have galvanic isolation. They cannot have UL listing without it. A crappy Chinaman is not the problem. An electrically ignorant computer assembler does not learn what his PSU must do. Who is legally responsible for sufficient galvanic isolation? Not the Chinaman. A computer assembler and only that computer assembler is responsible for hardware meeting all safety requirements and other standards.
We are not discussing crap because some American did not bother to be educated by things even taught in high school science. We are not discussiong crap because some American always ignores numbers. We are discussing what must be. And discussing scams promoted to naive Americans who routinely ignore spec numbers. Who foolishly put APC is on a list of companies of integrity.
Nobody said a 'whole house' protector does protection. Please read what is posted. Direct lightning strikes without damage are routine - we see it constantly - when a 'whole house' protector connects low impedance to protection. If any homeowner suffers damage from lightning, then the homeowner's mistake created that damage. Even the words protector and protection have different meanings had you been reading with required care.
One mistake is to use plug-in protectors without a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. As so many sources demonstrate (including your own citation). Using a plug-in protector can even compromise superior protection inside appliances.
Totally irresponsible is to provide a citation, not cite what is relevant, and well, you did not even read your own citation. Otherwise you would have read how a plug-in protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV. 8000 volts destructively because that surge was not properly earthed BEFORE entering a building.
Please learn to read. Then you can post what is really relevant. A protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground can even make damage easier - 8000 volts easier had you bothered to read it.
Please learn what is required to be honest - spec numbers. Even your IEEE brochure contradicts what you have assumed and then posted as if fact. Please learn how to read rather than remain attached to urban myths promoted by hearsay and advertising.
8000 volts destructively - damage created by a protector that does not have the always required low impedance connection to earth. As in always required so that even direct lightning strikes do not cause damage. Superior protection also costs tens of times less money. But that means unlearning fables, lies, and wild speculation that promoted ineffective and obscenely profitable 'magic boxes'.
What compromises superior protection already in a properly constructed computer? What is necessary to make disk drive damage possible? A technically naive consumer who failed to learn 100 years of well proven science. Who did not even learn how a protector might earth a surge 8000 volts destructively through household appliances - and maybe that disk drive.
Last edited:
M
malch
Guest
Now you're just being rude. FYI I graduated summa cum laude in electrical and electronic engineering.
You are pontificating greatly but I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. Clearly, you have an ax to grind with APC. Fair enough, I have some vendors on my poop list too.
Please learn to read. Your constant denials of well proven science has been insulting. I have been patient even when your own citation (an IEEE brochure) contradicts what you believe. You do not even have the decently to cite what in 61 pages is relevant.
Do you want pages of quotes from your own citation that contradict what you have posted? That can be done. However its just easier to note that you do not read what is posted, did not even comprehend your own citation, continuously post hearsay and urban myths as if fact, and never post any numbers.
No numbers (subjective claims) by itself was an insult to any educated person. But I was hoping you might finally learn why the less educated are so easily manipulated by subjective reasoning, outright lies, and facts justified only by emotion.
You clearly have no EE degree. You did not even read your own citation. To some, lying is acceptable. If you were an EE, then your every post included numbers. Lying is you being rude to all others here.
Best protection for a disk drive is already inside a properly assembled computer. Adjacent protector can compromise that superior and robust protection. Further mistakes are necessary to make that disk drive susceptible to surge damage.
Most failures (ie to disk drives) are due to manufacturing defects - not due to surges.
Scott Eaton
Senior Member
They seem to have a hair better MTF rates than their competitors.
M
malch
Guest
HGST is now owned by WD anyway.
And frankly suddenly a little more interesting than the usual "what's the most reliable hard drive" question which pops up on a regular basis
Damage from brownouts is another popular urban myth. If a brownout causes hardware damage, then that post also identified each electronic part damaged by a brownout. With numbers from its datasheet. Good luck finding any electronic part damaged by a brownout.
Meanwhile all disk drives first learn about power off when its voltages brownout. Brownout is a normal event (not destructive) during every power off.
Other industry standards apply. For example, voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 40% intensity. Even that voltage is sufficient for any properly constructed computer. DC voltages to each drive must not vary 0.2 volts when AC electric bulbs dim that much.
How often do your bulbs dim that much?
If AC voltage drops lower, then a PSU simply powers off - no damage. Too many only recite bogus myths rather than learn how hardware really works.
Destructive brownouts exist when fables replace how hardware really works. Once we include numbers, then bogus myths evaporate. Informed answers always include spec numbers. What number defines a brownout as destructive? That number does not exist.
edispics
Senior Member
- Messages
- 4,468
- Solutions
- 4
- Reaction score
- 3,273
For someone who provides not a single link or reference for anything he says, no indication of the source of his info, no numbers/no specifications, but instead broad generalizations, your attacks on others is strange, to say the least. Instead of hurling insults at forum members, why not engage in a civil discussion so everyone reading can actually learn something.
You can read all 61 pages in that IEEE brochure. It demonstrates how a plug-in protector (too close to appliances and too far from earth ground) make appliance damage easier. It even provides a numbers for that resulting TV damage - 8000 volts? Its all right there waiting for you to read it.
Please stop being emotional. Please learn from the many cited examples and sources with numbers. Then ask an informed (unemotional) question. Then more facts with numbers and sources can be provided.
Since you only posted your emotions and asked for no specific facts, then none can be provided.
M
malch
Guest
Those numbers are hypothetical. And the article even states "The 2000 V:8000 V division ratio has been arbitrarily assumed.".
More importantly, here's the proposed solution:
"To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
So that multiport protector must be on the toaster, every dimmer switch, dishwasher, each LED and CFL bulb, furnace, vacuum cleaner, each smoke detector, central air conditioner, ....
Or read the entire article. A surge that is not anywhere inside the building does not hunt for earth ground 8000 volts (many other destructive numbers also exist) 8000 volts destructively through a TV or anything else.
The guide says, "One of the main functions of the service entrance SPD is to reduce the surge current reaching any downstream protectors"
It details what effective protectors do to achieve that requirement: "2) To reduce the surge current to the downstream SPDs (including multiport SPDs)."
And "3) To stop the large lightning currents from passing into the house wiring system and damaging the wiring or inducing large voltages that would damage electronic equipment."
In short, adjacent SPDs must be protected by a 'whole house ' SPD solution. Homeowner must have a properly earthed 'whole house' solution if using plug-in protectors. Otherwise maybe 8000 volts is hunting for earth ground destructive via any or every household appliance. In this case, superior protection already inside TV2 was compromised by a plug-in protector due to no 'whole house' protection.
"For the most common source of lightning damage ... with a good surge protector installed at the building entrance, indeed, major lightning currents are stopped at the service entrance. However, with nearby lightning, or lightning which may attach to wires that come into the house via other paths, lightning can generate large currents in the house ground system."
IOW one 'whole house' solution provides complete (sufficient) protection. But if any wire enters without connecting low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) to that single point earth ground, then protection is compromised.
The guide is quite blunt about this:
"2.3.1 Grounding: An effective, low-impedance ground path is critical for the successful operation of an SPD."
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Plug-in protectors have no earth ground. That earth ground requirement has not changed in over 100 years.
M
malch
Guest
Nope. TV2 requires a second multiport protector because it's connected to a (distant) power source AND a CATV coax cable. Since those two connections originate in opposite sides of the home, there is the possibility of a significant potential developing across them in a lighting strike situation.
My toaster, lights etc. have only a power connection; they're not connected to the phone lines or TV coax.
In any event, the primary purpose of my UPS is not to protect against immediately proximate lighting strikes. If my home takes a direct hit, there's a significant risk that a lot of equipment (including non-delicate equipment) will be fried, or worse, the house will burn down. I have insurance for that; I'm just not interested in fighting billions of Joules. If that were my concern (e.g. because I lived in an especially vulnerable location) I'd start with lighting conductors on the roof. I'm much more concerned with:
* Keeping my computer running albeit for a limited time but more than sufficient to achieve an orderly shutdown.
* Keep other low-demand devices (e.g. modem) running for longer periods.
* Avoiding equipment shutdowns during brownouts.
* Protecting against minor surges and spikes (often created by distant lightning strikes).
* And especially protecting against power utility "flicker" which will cause shutdowns and may cause damage as a result of repetitive start-current surges.
Minor disturbances from distant lightning strikes, flickering power from failing transformers and burned out underground utility cables, brownouts etc. are all things that I have experienced many times and will experience again. I'll take my chances with a direct hit lightning strike. I worry a lot more about a major earthquake.
Last edited:
Rick Knepper
Forum Pro
Reliable will narrow the possibilities further.
If the OP wants 'reliable', he'll pursue this model. It comes in an 8 TB version. Enterprise drives don't fail often if at all.
- Messages
- 15,234
- Solutions
- 17
- Reaction score
- 7,707
Yes, but it's been a while since we had such a long, intense, and entertainingly fanatical rant in PC Talk.
I'm glad I finally looked at this thread; the title was unpromising for my interests, but this sort of thing goes to show the value of a good thread drift. :-D
M
malch
Guest
Looks like you killed it :-(
- Messages
- 15,234
- Solutions
- 17
- Reaction score
- 7,707
Awww, too bad. Usually ranters of that caliber just never give up until they've either had the last word or the thread limit is reached...and often not even then.
If you think there was more to be had, maybe you could reignite the flamewar with a few well-chosen insults?
M
malch
Guest
I'm not sure I can "trump" that which has already been said
Similar threads
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum