Mark Marshall
Senior Member
DavidP wrote:
I think that's the latter is the case, and it would drive me bonkers!
I think that's the latter is the case, and it would drive me bonkers!
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Metering difference
- Thread starter lonnit
- Start date
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
The 300D is clearly marketed towards those who don't want or need that much control.
I think it'll be disappointing to a lot of the potential users HERE (on this forum). I'm not saying it'll be disappointing to the masses.
But a lot of those here have said they want a DSLR to help with slow shutter lag. That's all fine and dandy if you can get it to expose the way you want it to quickly. A lot of these folks are coming from either film SLRs or digital point/n/shoots. Negative film is a lot more forgiving of exposure errors. And the point/n/shoots seem to do a much better job in getting exposure right compared to the DSLRs without much work from the photographer. I'm pretty sure this is because the scene is literally being metered by the sensor itself. It's easy to detect blowouts that way.
As long as people realize this going in, or will never know the difference, it's not really a big deal.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
I think it'll be disappointing to a lot of the potential users HERE (on this forum). I'm not saying it'll be disappointing to the masses.
But a lot of those here have said they want a DSLR to help with slow shutter lag. That's all fine and dandy if you can get it to expose the way you want it to quickly. A lot of these folks are coming from either film SLRs or digital point/n/shoots. Negative film is a lot more forgiving of exposure errors. And the point/n/shoots seem to do a much better job in getting exposure right compared to the DSLRs without much work from the photographer. I'm pretty sure this is because the scene is literally being metered by the sensor itself. It's easy to detect blowouts that way.
As long as people realize this going in, or will never know the difference, it's not really a big deal.
--'cause I sure don't.
Why, oh why can't they just give you complete control over metering
and focusing in the 300D just like in the other digitals, D30, D60,
10D, and the pro cameras as well?? Maybe a hidden button
combination that throws it ito a real manual mode with full
control. Sorry, but I hate cameras which assume you are a "dummy".
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
You sound like you're likely to outgrow the 300D fairly rapidly, to me. Going to the 10D gives you a LOT more control. You essentially get all the control of the 1D/1Ds, though you still don't have a spot-meter built-in. You get a "big spot" they call partial, though.
One thing, though. If you tend to shoot a lot of static subjects, and can take your time without fear of losing shots, then the 300D will probably be more than sufficient for your needs.
But if you're thinking of shooting things that move a bit more, strongly consider the 10D. You get a lot more flexibility to make the camera work the way YOU want it to with the 10D. Which may not be the way I want it to work, but it may not be the way the 300D forces you to work, either.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
One thing, though. If you tend to shoot a lot of static subjects, and can take your time without fear of losing shots, then the 300D will probably be more than sufficient for your needs.
But if you're thinking of shooting things that move a bit more, strongly consider the 10D. You get a lot more flexibility to make the camera work the way YOU want it to with the 10D. Which may not be the way I want it to work, but it may not be the way the 300D forces you to work, either.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
That's scarey to me. I think I'll be depending on auto modes alot in the beginning.
Yeah but I can't jsutify several thousand $ more for taht LOL! But you're saying the 10D would be better in that respect for me than the 300D?
We can't even begin to talk about the 1D in my budget. At my level I've got no right to even touch one of those! LOL! I think I'd have to bow to one if I ever encountered it! LOL!Don't blame me, I didn't make up the name "idiot modes" and assign
them to the different modes.
The beauty of the 1D/1Ds is that you can set things up the way YOU
want them . . . even if that seems weird to others. LOL.
Well that really pushes me back towards the 10D.
In my heart I really want the 10D because I've been committed to it and yearning for 6 mo. I've got to justify it now with this other thing coming out! LOL!Thanks,
Lonnit
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
Not a hernia. The 1D does that just fine. LOL.
But see the responses up above by "lonnit". The discussion of these issues has enlightened him. He may (I stress may) end up going with a 10D instead of the 300D, now that he's more fully aware of the contraints.
THAT'S the benefit of discussions like this. It's NOT camera-bashing. It's discussing the differences so that people are aware of them.
That's exactly how I went about choosing my first "real AF SLR", the EOS-3. I read lots of comments about it, and paid attention to both the positives and the negatives. I also paid attention to the positives and negatives of other cameras.
If I'd only paid attention to positives, I probably would've made the wrong decision. Ditto for only the negatives.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
But see the responses up above by "lonnit". The discussion of these issues has enlightened him. He may (I stress may) end up going with a 10D instead of the 300D, now that he's more fully aware of the contraints.
THAT'S the benefit of discussions like this. It's NOT camera-bashing. It's discussing the differences so that people are aware of them.
That's exactly how I went about choosing my first "real AF SLR", the EOS-3. I read lots of comments about it, and paid attention to both the positives and the negatives. I also paid attention to the positives and negatives of other cameras.
If I'd only paid attention to positives, I probably would've made the wrong decision. Ditto for only the negatives.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
The reason I say this is that you can't shoot in RAW mode in "sports" or "landscape" (or any of the so-called "idiot modes"). You also can't use any exposure compensation. This is a TERRIBLE mistake, IMO, on a digital SLR. I can't stress that enough. People think I'm bashing the 300D . . . I'm not . . I'm just pointing out a flaw that I think will bite people like you in the derriere.
Yes, the 10D is much closer to the 1D than a lot of folks realize . . certainly in terms of the control you get over exposure and focus modes.
Bow down and worship! I have 2 of them. LOL.
Don't worry - within a year, I'll bet you can get one (used) for $1500.
Act like you never heard of the 300D.Well that really pushes me back towards the 10D.
really want the 10D because I've been committed to it and yearning
for 6 mo. I've got to justify it now with this other thing coming
out! LOL!
Normally I'd tell people to scrimp a bit on the body and go for glass. But the reduced feature set of the 300D (esp. because it's digital) is going to be THE reason a lot of photographer's end up regretting their decision. Not the typical consumer, mind you (well, maybe even some of them), but those who intend to shoot things that demand a bit more user control.
Granted, you can always go "totally manual", and even buy an external light meter, if you wanted to.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Mark Marshall
Senior Member
BUT! As you've demonstrated on Canon as well as lighting forums, you have a larger photography budget than most people here (or most places). If anyone hangs out here and decides on the 10D (@ $1500) I would say "what WERE you waiting for?" - m²
allenfinch
Member
didn't I proceed to explain in detail where the differences are?
Was there some inaccuracy in my explanation?
I agree that there is some small nuisance in having to keep track of some of the combinations. Would it be somewhat easier to just be able to combine anything with anything as you choose. Yes.
It doesn't follow that the "limitations" are serious however.
allenfinch
Member
Lonnit, I would hope at the point that you were advised to buy a 1d that you saw that this is becoming absurd.so which camera would be the better one for the "idiot" who wants
to be lazy and have everything done for them automatically and end
up with a good shot?
Lonnit
I don't have anything against david except that his crusade against the 300d is apparently causing people to believe that the 300d is unusable and that they need to spend a lot more money.
To answer your question, if you want automatic the 300d uses the same evaluative metering that the 10d does. If, and when, you decide tha,t under certain conditions, you want to use the other modes, those modes are available on the 300d as well. The sensor, processing, etc. are the same.
Under the conditions you are talking about shooting you will get, assuming that there aren't strange image quality surprises(and there shouldn't be and there is not expected to be any), the same picture with the 300d that you would with the 10d.
The only real metering difference comes down to the fact that you can't use evaluative metering in Manual(you use centerweighted) and you can't use centerweighted in the other creative modes. ALL creative modes allow partial metering. If this sounds less like a big deal than you expected that's because it isn't nearly as big a deal as some are trying to make out.
I agree with Peter Phan that some of these issues for david are a result of certain shooting techniques and being locked into a certain way of approaching things, due to the interfaces that he is used to on the 1d or 10d. Someone who has no expectations about how to accomplish certain things(because he has less experience) would learn to accomplish the same things, in a slightly different way, on the 300d. It is quite an exaggeration to say that you can not accomplish things with the 300d, again unless you have a very rigid set of expectations about how to accomplish them.
It would be similar to a person moving from windows 2000 to windowsxp insisting that they can't accomplish what they could accomplish before because the interface is a bit different.
DavidP I'm not trying to badmouth you, but I think this is out of control. When you start telling someone who wants a good automatic camera that they need to buy a 1d something is haywire. I realize that you feel you are just informing people, but I think you need to keep in front of your mind that you are giving advice that could cost people a lot of money.
With a Rebel viewfinder and a f5.6 lens?? Good luck,
Rich
Good luck,Rich
The reason I say this is that you can't shoot in RAW mode in
"sports" or "landscape" (or any of the so-called "idiot modes").
You also can't use any exposure compensation. This is a TERRIBLE
mistake, IMO, on a digital SLR. I can't stress that enough.
People think I'm bashing the 300D . . . I'm not . . I'm just
pointing out a flaw that I think will bite people like you in the
derriere.
Yes, the 10D is much closer to the 1D than a lot of folks realize .
. certainly in terms of the control you get over exposure and focus
modes.
Bow down and worship! I have 2 of them. LOL.
Don't worry - within a year, I'll bet you can get one (used) for
$1500.
Act like you never heard of the 300D.Well that really pushes me back towards the 10D.
really want the 10D because I've been committed to it and yearning
for 6 mo. I've got to justify it now with this other thing coming
out! LOL!
Normally I'd tell people to scrimp a bit on the body and go for
glass. But the reduced feature set of the 300D (esp. because it's
digital) is going to be THE reason a lot of photographer's end up
regretting their decision. Not the typical consumer, mind you
(well, maybe even some of them), but those who intend to shoot
things that demand a bit more user control.
Granted, you can always go "totally manual", and even buy an
external light meter, if you wanted to.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
allenfinch
Member
Ok david fair enough, it is indeed what you get used to.
Surely though you would admit that others, who are not used to this, would not feel crippled in using the 300d?
Furthermore, I don't see how this classifies as a crippling problem, even in your situation. Surely it would not destroy your photography to approach things a little bit differently. I'm not saying that you SHOULD do this, if you want to spend the money on another camera that is your choice.
But I am saying that you COULD do this, that it would not damage your photography, and that it would not lead to some horrible destruction of your photographic technique. You don't want to change your technique and I understand that, but it doesn't mean that this camera is crippled or unusable. It just means that you are used to doing things in a certain way and don't want to change that.
My only quarrel with you is that you are advising others that they will find this camera inadequate, and in the process are convincing them to spend much money.
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
Hey, quit bashing the 300D. LOL.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
--With a Rebel viewfinder and a f5.6 lens??
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
Perhaps that is how they intend to keep pros buying the 10D!'cause I sure don't.
Why, oh why can't they just give you complete control over metering
and focusing in the 300D just like in the other digitals, D30, D60,
10D, and the pro cameras as well?? Maybe a hidden button
combination that throws it ito a real manual mode with full
control. Sorry, but I hate cameras which assume you are a "dummy".
Lonnit
DRG
Veteran Member
The point of metering is that you are asking the camera to determine the exposure for you, not hunting around for a value that you like. This means pointing the center of frame at the object on which you wish to meter and pressing lock. You'll then see the reading it's selected. Many instruments work this way, including many handheld light meters. It's like taking a snapshot of the exposure. What's the point of seeing the reading beforehand? It's not as though you are committed to the locked exposure. You can always release and relock on something else if you wish.
Because partial metering reads such a small portion of the image, it's essential to know exactly what's being metered. This means, you almost always want to lock the exposure at the moment you have the meter pointed correctly, since the reading will change once the framing shifts even a little bit.
David G
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
I didn't tell him to get a 1D.
I gave him my (biased) opinion, and he's presumably using that opinion along with others to come to terms with which camera he wants.
And you're wrong: you CAN'T use partial metering on the 300D unless you're willing to lock auto-exposure independently of autofocus. That's a limitation.
The ONLY debate is just how big of a limitiation that is (along with the other limitations).
He seemed concerned that he'd outgrow the 300D's limitations quickly, which is why I recommended the 10D (not the 1D) to him over the 300D. I also gave my opinion on one way to determine which makes more sense: does he intend to shoot mainly static subjects where he has more time, or does he intend to shoot more moving things. If the latter, I think the 10D makes more sense.
That's NOT saying that the 300D can't be used in such situations. But the 10D does give him more opportunities to customize the camera so that it works best for him.
It's his money, and his decision. I don't think anybody will argue about what the limitations of the 300D are, either. The only thing that needs to be determined is how important those things are to the person making the decision.
I've made my recommendation, and have given the conditions where I think the 300D might be satisfactory, and when I think he'd be happier with the 10D.
You're free to disagree with that recommendation, of course.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
I gave him my (biased) opinion, and he's presumably using that opinion along with others to come to terms with which camera he wants.
And you're wrong: you CAN'T use partial metering on the 300D unless you're willing to lock auto-exposure independently of autofocus. That's a limitation.
The ONLY debate is just how big of a limitiation that is (along with the other limitations).
He seemed concerned that he'd outgrow the 300D's limitations quickly, which is why I recommended the 10D (not the 1D) to him over the 300D. I also gave my opinion on one way to determine which makes more sense: does he intend to shoot mainly static subjects where he has more time, or does he intend to shoot more moving things. If the latter, I think the 10D makes more sense.
That's NOT saying that the 300D can't be used in such situations. But the 10D does give him more opportunities to customize the camera so that it works best for him.
It's his money, and his decision. I don't think anybody will argue about what the limitations of the 300D are, either. The only thing that needs to be determined is how important those things are to the person making the decision.
I've made my recommendation, and have given the conditions where I think the 300D might be satisfactory, and when I think he'd be happier with the 10D.
You're free to disagree with that recommendation, of course.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
I think you are probably right.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Oh baby, then you're really solidifying things up for me! I have 3 kids - in there is a set of just-turned-5-years-old high energy rough-n-tumble twin boyss. Now, you tell me... do you really think I have much in the realm of static subjects that I can take my time with? LOL!!!! NOT!!!!
Excellent points. I thank you muchly!
Warmly,
Lonnit
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
No, I think having to use a 300D would "cripple" my photography. Does that mean I wouldn't get every shot? No.
I made a D30 work for me, and I'm sure I could make a 300D work for me.
But I also know that I'd have an easier time with a 10D, and an even easier time with the 1D.
The 300D is definitely "crippled" relative to the 10D or 1D. And if one is expressing worries about possibly outgrowing an SLR, I think that's an indication to consider moving up to the 10D.
Choosing the camera is an issue of deciding whether you have to work around the camera, or if you can make the camera work for you. Aside from other issues like weight, size, cost, etc.
Does he really NEED anything better than a 300D? Probably not. But then in reality, nobody does, do they? For that matter, most of us don't even NEED cameras.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
I made a D30 work for me, and I'm sure I could make a 300D work for me.
But I also know that I'd have an easier time with a 10D, and an even easier time with the 1D.
The 300D is definitely "crippled" relative to the 10D or 1D. And if one is expressing worries about possibly outgrowing an SLR, I think that's an indication to consider moving up to the 10D.
Choosing the camera is an issue of deciding whether you have to work around the camera, or if you can make the camera work for you. Aside from other issues like weight, size, cost, etc.
Does he really NEED anything better than a 300D? Probably not. But then in reality, nobody does, do they? For that matter, most of us don't even NEED cameras.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
I do assume you understand that the statement "300D = static subjects, 10D = moving subjects" is a bit simplistic.
It's not as if you won't be able to get any shots with the 300D on moving subjects. But you will miss more of them. How many? That's tough for me to say. I don't use AI-Focus mode, and I couldn't if I wanted to, since I don't even have that option.
You might ask 10D owners that have moving kids as their primary subjects if they'd settle for the limitations that the 300D imposes on them. I'll bet most of them use modes that you just can't get on the 300D. How many of them have tried the modes that you're forced to use on the 300D in this situation, though, is another matter.
The other thing to look at is your total budget: figure out what lenses/etc you'll give up if you get the 10D instead of the 300D. Take that into consideration.
The other thing to do: look for refurb 10D's at Samy's Camera, B&H, Adorama, etc, even on Ebay. Somebodyo said that Samy's sells them for $999. If you could get a deal like that, that would be the way to go.
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
It's not as if you won't be able to get any shots with the 300D on moving subjects. But you will miss more of them. How many? That's tough for me to say. I don't use AI-Focus mode, and I couldn't if I wanted to, since I don't even have that option.
You might ask 10D owners that have moving kids as their primary subjects if they'd settle for the limitations that the 300D imposes on them. I'll bet most of them use modes that you just can't get on the 300D. How many of them have tried the modes that you're forced to use on the 300D in this situation, though, is another matter.
The other thing to look at is your total budget: figure out what lenses/etc you'll give up if you get the 10D instead of the 300D. Take that into consideration.
The other thing to do: look for refurb 10D's at Samy's Camera, B&H, Adorama, etc, even on Ebay. Somebodyo said that Samy's sells them for $999. If you could get a deal like that, that would be the way to go.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
That is most definitely worth a heads up IMO.
So what makes for the huge $ diff - the sensor that offers all those wonderful extra megapixels?
smack! I'm kissing your feet! --- oops, I'm not going to get thrown off for k*nkyness here am I? LOL!
So with 2 of those what the heck are you hanging around with us for? LOL!
I doubt that - but keep my email addy handy 'cuz I'll be waiting to ease your burdon! LOL! Actually I'd love to have that many pixels b/c then I know it'd be mine 'til I wore it out. I couldn't possibly have the need for more pixels. I'm concerned now about 6+ being enough. I crop alot. That's one of the reasons I'm upgrading from 3.2 olympus c3030. There are plenty of other reasons but that is a huge one. I can't get in to my subject close enough and I have to limit my cropping later. With the DSLR I can get the lenses I need to get right in on the nose hairs if I want, and almost doubling the pixels from what I have now gives me twice as much leeway if I want to crop tight later. Now, as I say this I'm thinking about DH's biz. He's a contractor and he's getting into this technique of inlaying photo murals and graphics in BIG sizes on floors. I could end up at the point where output is going to be so big that I'd be just eeking by on 14 megapixels! But, at that point, if he's doing enough of those jobs I might be easily justifying the latest 25 megapixels cameras! LOL!
Looks like I'm getting alot of justification out of this conversation for heading me back to the 10D forum! LOL!
Thanks!
Lonnit
DavidP #28649
Forum Pro
At least somebody thinks so. LOL. Be careful, though -- people think I'm leading you astray. I guess you can't make your own decisions.
Well, it's the 1Ds that has the 11 megapixels, and it's 6 or 7 grand.
The 1D has a measly 4 megapixels. Less than even the 300D. Sniff, sniff.
Truth be known, they can probably makea the 1D for about the same cost as a 300D - LOL -- or at least the 10D.
The difference is all in the marketing . . and you're paying to get things like a spot-meter, 8 fps, and a build-quality that lets you use it as a defensive weapon. Plus, it gives your chiropractor something to do from carrying it all day long on the neck.
Haven't you been reading? I apparently am only here to bash the 300D. Either to keep people from buying Canon, or to force you to buy a better Canon camera . . . depending on the argument of the hour.
Actuallly, I like to keep up with the newer DSLRs. Believe it or not, I have friends elsewhere (other fourms AND in real life) who ask me about camera equipment. I like to be informed on what all the differences are.
You're confusing the 1D again with the 1Ds.
6 megapixels gives you room to crop. But what you really want to do is use your lens (and your feet) to compose the way you want it in camera, so you minimize cropping.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise
'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
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