What should I do? Do I really need a pro body with AF tuning?

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

Mike - said:
CN -

Have you tried using F8 in any of your tests (or regular photo capturing) ? Especially with the APS-C cameras (also required with full frame) with most "any" zoom lens, the "sweet" spot will be around F8 (+/- one step). This is not anything new or a secret of any kind.

I currently own Canon (FF and APS-C), Sony (FF and APS-C) and Nikon (FF and APS-C) (used to have a Pentax). ALL of my lenses are zoom lenses of varying ranges. Some high dollar (Canon "L" and such), some high mid-high dollar range. Every one, of my about (11) zoom lenses (all brands) work best at between F5.6 and F11, with most at...F8.

I just today did some micro focusing on my new Sony A99 II and two lenses. Both lenses needed a "little" adjustment. As tested at F5.6 (minimum for the given lenses) and then again at F8, varying lengths. All is well now.

Mike

No I haven't shot any of my tests with F8 yet. I was told to always shoot wide open for checking for back and front focus.

I have shot regular photos at F8 before on the first copy and they looked great. The only reason why I returned the first one was because it was defective and had front focus issues even after tuning it and setting several FL's to +20.

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

Once I switched to bottles like suggested earlier (sorry, forgot the user name but I do thank you!)

All is sharp now at 70mm and 100mm FL at 5M distance.

This is at a perfect 5M distance from the centre bottle, and the bottles are 45 degree angle.

70mm

100mm

J A C S · Sep 10, 2017

Bambi24 said:
There were DPReview articles and reviews that said rebel cameras needed AF microadjust, which is completely insane. Not only are misalignments in cameras incredibly rare, the DoF you need to actually notice the tiny alignment issues is incredibly small, far far shallower than anyone shooting rebels uses.

Funny, I had a Rebel 350D which was back or front focusing all the time, forgot now which one. I fixed it with a hex key and it became quite accurate after that.

T3 · Sep 10, 2017

Geez, just get a mirrorless camera. I used to a DSLR user. Now I use mirrorless. No calibration issues with mirrorless because mirrorless cameras use the actual imaging sensor for focusing, instead of a separate autofocus module located in a different place in the camera.

T3 · Sep 10, 2017

Bambi24 said:
It has nothing to do with cameras.

It's people buying Tamron and Sigma lenses promoted by clickbait sites. Sites who tell them they can fix lens AF issues with microadjust, which it can't do since the AF issues Tamron and Sigma have are all software related. The moment they move or turn the zoom ring this "fix" is undone.

It does have to do with cameras. And the issue isn't limited to third-party lenses. The issue is that DSLRs use PDAF modules in a separate location from the image sensor/focal plain. So what the PDAF module sees as being proper focus is not what the image sensor sees.

https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-lenses

" Due to the nature of the phase detect autofocus system that is present on all SLR cameras, both cameras and lenses must be properly calibrated by manufacturers in order to yield sharp images. Various factors such as manufacturer defects, sample variation, insufficient quality assurance testing/tuning and improper shipping and handling can all negatively impact autofocus precision. A lot of photographers get frustrated after spending thousands of dollars on camera equipment and not being able to get anything in focus."

So yes, it has everything to do with the cameras. There is a lot of complexity in an SLR system. With an SLR, you need all these components and factors to be calibrated/tuned for optimal performance. Anything out of alignment will cause issues with optimal focusing.

None of this is an issue with mirrorless cameras because mirrorless cameras are much more simple and straight-forward-- they use the actual imaging sensor to determine focus. The light that makes up the image coming through the lens takes a straight path to the image sensor, where the autofocus sensors reside (at the focal plane); no detours, no diversions, no bouncing off of any secondary mirrors, no separate AF modules that need to be in perfect alignment, etc.

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

It looks like I could possibly have another copy with the exact same issues that my first copy had (just at different FL's this time), just not NEARLY as bad! The original copy I had was beyond horrid!

I finished tuning it and here are my finished settings. This is not a great copy if it needs to be tweaked to max range on some FL's.

The 70mm adjustment at 5M could use another 5-7 notches up. 100mm at 5M could use 2-3 more.

From what you can see in these two images, shot at 5M distance 70mm and 100mm FL, even with my setting at it's max +20 in the Tamron app, there is still a bit of front focusing. It's not huge but it's noticable.

The front focusing is worse at 70mm shot at 5M than at 100mm. At 135mm and 200mm settings my focus is perfect, bang on, which is awesome cause I mostly shoot in this range.

On the original copy, I had this same issue even after tuning it and having +20 settings, but at 135mm and 200mm. The front focus issues were horrible.

70mm

100mm

I'm still not 100% sold if it's sharp like it should be at 70mm and 100mm at 5M distance.

I might have to play around with the Focus range limiter setting in the tamron app.

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

hikerdoc said:
Does your lens have a focus range limiter switch that allows focus through full range and another position that will limit focus from several meters to infinity. My Nikons have that option to speed AF if not intending to use the close ranges of focus. It will not focus properly for objects closer if range limiter is on. Make sure you have not limited your near focus. If your store has cut off your swaps and you are still unsatisfied with your lens performance you made need to have a Tamron look at the lens. How does the lens work on real world subjects?

I do not know what bodies you are using now, but new pro level Nikon bodies go at $3-7K each; this is more than either Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR II or E. Also the lens fine tune in the body is at a single focal length. If you tune for the Tamron lens significantly at close range you likely to see focus difficulties as you approach infinity.

If you are stuck with the lens get out and use it, gain experience with it and make sure you are not the issue, and enjoy it!

Good luck.

D

I'm looking more into the focus range limiter that you brought up, but shouldn't this "near side" setting be at the very left of the scale here? Again this is default setting in the tamron app.

What does Tamron mean by "bottom position" and "middle position?"

CubeAce · Sep 10, 2017

Cameranoobie said:
It looks like I could possibly have another copy with the exact same issues that my first copy had (just at different FL's this time), just not NEARLY as bad! The original copy I had was beyond horrid!

I finished tuning it and here are my finished settings. This is not a great copy if it needs to be tweaked to max range on some FL's.

The 70mm adjustment at 5M could use another 5-7 notches up. 100mm at 5M could use 2-3 more.

From what you can see in these two images, shot at 5M distance 70mm and 100mm FL, even with my setting at it's max +20 in the Tamron app, there is still a bit of front focusing. It's not huge but it's noticable.

The front focusing is worse at 70mm shot at 5M than at 100mm. At 135mm and 200mm settings my focus is perfect, bang on, which is awesome cause I mostly shoot in this range.

On the original copy, I had this same issue even after tuning it and having +20 settings, but at 135mm and 200mm. The front focus issues were horrible.

70mm

100mm

I'm still not 100% sold if it's sharp like it should be at 70mm and 100mm at 5M distance.

I might have to play around with the Focus range limiter setting in the tamron app.

Are these processed raw files or jpg straight from camera?

If the latter try resetting your Standard Picture control. The sharpening, Clarity, and Saturation levels are much higher than the base level for the standard picture control.

I'm not convinced your settings are not contributing to what you think is blurring of the prints sharp edges. The white around the black lettering is whiter than the surrounding white of the label. That to me seems off.

In the real world you are more likely to miss critical focus by not getting the focus spot in exactly the right place than by it being slightly off.

Have you tried the lens out and about yet?

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

CubeAce said:
Cameranoobie said:

It looks like I could possibly have another copy with the exact same issues that my first copy had (just at different FL's this time), just not NEARLY as bad! The original copy I had was beyond horrid!

I finished tuning it and here are my finished settings. This is not a great copy if it needs to be tweaked to max range on some FL's.

The 70mm adjustment at 5M could use another 5-7 notches up. 100mm at 5M could use 2-3 more.

From what you can see in these two images, shot at 5M distance 70mm and 100mm FL, even with my setting at it's max +20 in the Tamron app, there is still a bit of front focusing. It's not huge but it's noticable.

The front focusing is worse at 70mm shot at 5M than at 100mm. At 135mm and 200mm settings my focus is perfect, bang on, which is awesome cause I mostly shoot in this range.

On the original copy, I had this same issue even after tuning it and having +20 settings, but at 135mm and 200mm. The front focus issues were horrible.

70mm

100mm

I'm still not 100% sold if it's sharp like it should be at 70mm and 100mm at 5M distance.

I might have to play around with the Focus range limiter setting in the tamron app.

Click to expand...

Are these processed raw files or jpg straight from camera?

If the latter try resetting your Standard Picture control. The sharpening, Clarity, and Saturation levels are much higher than the base level for the standard picture control.

I'm not convinced your settings are not contributing to what you think is blurring of the prints sharp edges. The white around the black lettering is whiter than the surrounding white of the label. That to me seems off.

In the real world you are more likely to miss critical focus by not getting the focus spot in exactly the right place than by it being slightly off.

Have you tried the lens out and about yet?

These are jpegs taken right off my hard drive. Isn't RAW files too large for this site forum? Should I start uploading raw files right from my drive?

I will reset my picture control as well to standard picture. You bring up a good point, it very well could be my picture controls contributing to this.

The Davinator · Sep 10, 2017

Bambi24 said:
It has nothing to do with cameras.

Could you please get some knowledge on the topic before you post. This comment is wrong, uninformed, and misleading.

Bambi24 said:
It's people buying Tamron and Sigma lenses promoted by clickbait sites. Sites who tell them they can fix lens AF issues with microadjust, which it can't do since the AF issues Tamron and Sigma have are all software related. The moment they move or turn the zoom ring this "fix" is undone.

CubeAce · Sep 10, 2017

Cameranoobie said:
CubeAce said:

Cameranoobie said:

It looks like I could possibly have another copy with the exact same issues that my first copy had (just at different FL's this time), just not NEARLY as bad! The original copy I had was beyond horrid!

I finished tuning it and here are my finished settings. This is not a great copy if it needs to be tweaked to max range on some FL's.

The 70mm adjustment at 5M could use another 5-7 notches up. 100mm at 5M could use 2-3 more.

From what you can see in these two images, shot at 5M distance 70mm and 100mm FL, even with my setting at it's max +20 in the Tamron app, there is still a bit of front focusing. It's not huge but it's noticable.

The front focusing is worse at 70mm shot at 5M than at 100mm. At 135mm and 200mm settings my focus is perfect, bang on, which is awesome cause I mostly shoot in this range.

On the original copy, I had this same issue even after tuning it and having +20 settings, but at 135mm and 200mm. The front focus issues were horrible.

70mm

100mm

I'm still not 100% sold if it's sharp like it should be at 70mm and 100mm at 5M distance.

I might have to play around with the Focus range limiter setting in the tamron app.

Click to expand...

Are these processed raw files or jpg straight from camera?

If the latter try resetting your Standard Picture control. The sharpening, Clarity, and Saturation levels are much higher than the base level for the standard picture control.

I'm not convinced your settings are not contributing to what you think is blurring of the prints sharp edges. The white around the black lettering is whiter than the surrounding white of the label. That to me seems off.

In the real world you are more likely to miss critical focus by not getting the focus spot in exactly the right place than by it being slightly off.

Have you tried the lens out and about yet?

Click to expand...

These are jpegs taken right off my hard drive. Isn't RAW files too large for this site forum? Should I start uploading raw files right from my drive?

I will reset my picture control as well to standard picture. You bring up a good point, it very well could be my picture controls contributing to this.

I think there is provision somewhere on the site to upload RAW files but I'm not sure. Certainly I haven't tried as yet but jpg should be fine. I was just checking it wasn't a post processing problem with a raw file. jpg straight from camera for this should be fine.

I'm sure the picture control should be at a default value to ensure no over sharpening of the jpg occurs. If your camera has a neutral or flat picture control I would try those first.

Sometimes with new equipment it is easy to overlook camera settings. The amount of times I've thought a bit of kit has gone wrong on me only to find I'd altered a camera setting for the worse isn't worth thinking about

davev8 · Sep 10, 2017

T3 said:
Geez, just get a mirrorless camera. I used to a DSLR user. Now I use mirrorless. No calibration issues with mirrorless because mirrorless cameras use the actual imaging sensor for focusing, instead of a separate autofocus module located in a different place in the camera.

so you have never seen AF problems on the sony and fuji forum then ?

and i don't see Sony A7xx cameras used by sports shooter for their blazingly fast AF

--
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
..........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
...........................................................................................................
You are joking ....i have a sony nex ...i think the designers was an anti photographer sadist ...the only way to make it more less enjoyable to use would be to superglue a drawing pin to the shutter button...pin up
...

Ruby Rod · Sep 10, 2017

+1 on camera settings. I don't shoot raw, so keep my settings under sharpened, a bit lower saturation and try never to blow out highlights. That makes future processing much easier. I see far more over sharpening on these images than blur. That's not to say the focus point isn't a bit off but it's asking way too much of the system to hit a distant focus point dead on. With fast lenses the problem tends to get worse- even though it should be easier for the focus system, the error is easier to see. When I first got a dSLR, I spent a lot of time messing with angled test targets and agonizing over imperfections. Then I got over the OCD and went out and took photos. FWIW, I once had the opportunity to do some fairly involved tests on a popular ultra wide range zoom. I found it a snapshot lens at best, something I'd never be happy with. I limit myself to narrow range zooms that perform on par with primes.

--
Ruby

davev8 · Sep 10, 2017

The Davinator said:
Bambi24 said:

It has nothing to do with cameras.

Click to expand...

Could you please get some knowledge on the topic before you post. This comment is wrong, uninformed, and misleading.

i for one would like you tell me way this comment is wrong uninformed and misleading

as obviously you must be very informed on this subject to be qualified to make this statement

i am all ears

The Davinator said:
The Davinator said:

It's people buying Tamron and Sigma lenses promoted by clickbait sites. Sites who tell them they can fix lens AF issues with microadjust, which it can't do since the AF issues Tamron and Sigma have are all software related. The moment they move or turn the zoom ring this "fix" is undone.

Click to expand...

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

70mm with flat standard pic settings. Will do 100mm next

Took 4 shots

It seems the front focus is not near as bad

davev8 · Sep 10, 2017

Cameranoobie said:
70mm with flat standard pic settings. Will do 100mm next

Took 4 shots

It seems the front focus is not near as bad

just asking ...you are using a tripod ?

Cameranoobie said:

--
My 5D IS a MK1 classic
..........................................................................................................
There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
...........................................................................................................
You are joking ....i have a sony nex ...i think the designers was an anti photographer sadist ...the only way to make it more less enjoyable to use would be to superglue a drawing pin to the shutter button...pin up
...

J A C S · Sep 10, 2017

Did you focus on the middle bottle or on the one which is in the middle of the frame (the pink one with a pink label)?

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

J A C S said:
Did you focus on the middle bottle or on the one which is in the middle of the frame (the pink one with a pink label)?

Middle bottle, the red one. Sorry those pics were bad, somehow my AF point got knocked to the left one, I re-took them just now. Here you go.

Middle RED bottle.

I notice that all the front focusing is all of a sudden now gone and perhas a slight bit of back focusing in some of the 70mm shots. Looks like I can adjust that +20 reading down a bit.

And Dave, yes I am using a tripod.

Also here is 100mm, 2 shots. Which now the focus looks perfect! The slight front focus that it had before is now gone!

So the thing is, is it sharp at both 70mm and 100mm?

Turning my in camera sharpness down from +7.5 to default obviously made a difference in the front focus issues at 70mm and 100mm.

Now I should go back to the other tests, re-take those shots to double check to see if i need to adjust them.

Cameranoobie · Sep 10, 2017

I reanalyzed the 100mm shots and it's sharp! It looks like turning the in-camera sharpness to default sharpness and default saturation did the trick.

I am still not sold on the 70mm @ 5M, I will adjust the +20 reading down a few numbers and re-shoot it.

J A C S · Sep 10, 2017

It looks good now. Can you believe that? A dSLR can actually focus well! ;-)

The sharpness looks OK to me. You are shooting JPEG and I am not familiar with the default camera output of your particular camera.

What should I do? Do I really need a pro body with AF tuning?

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