The writing is on the wall for JPEG, and maybe raw too?

All anyone should be most concerned about is that in many years time an old JPG file cannot be opened... just like finding a 5 inch disk today makes reading it a headache.

This scenario is why some say to not shoot only RAW as in the distant future a long defunct camera manufacturer may not be supported by proprietary software.
Apples and oranges. You're comparing hardware which hasn't been made in many years against a standardized file format which has been coded for zillions of time and is trivial to re-use.

That said, one does need to pay attention. Niche proprietary file formats may become difficult to open. For example, consider Ami Pro word processor that ran on OS/2 in the mid 1990's. Not impossible if you jump through a couple hoops, but not trivial today.

So far, RAW file formats for any commonly available cameras are still completely viable. May be smart to keep a copy of software you know works plus a virtual machine that can run it. :)
 
Many responses imagined what 10 bits, or 16 bits in HEIF replacing 8 bits in JPEG could do to avoid RAW, i.e. produce visible images directly OOC with enough DR in them.

However as far as I have checked, current monitors are only capable of an honest 6 bits, though some advertise 8 bits by modulation, already stretching it for marketing purposes. That is a limit as to how much contrast can be exacted out of aligning liquid crystals. OLED can do better than that, almost 10 bits currently, but how many 23 to 27 inch OLED monitors do you have, or can afford?

So even if I can generate HEIF with 10 bit directly and it has the ability to cover 99.99% of actual pictures dynamic range, who will do the mapping of those 10 or 16 bits to the 6 or 8 bits that the screen can display?

If that mapping is done in a static way by the display driver, it will give no better result that the current 8 bit OOC JPEG, which is just that kind of static tone mapping from the 12-14 bit of RAW to the 8 bits of JPEG done in the camera.

This means that in practice I will still need to do in post processing the tone mapping adjustments I need to do today, even if it is now from HEIF to HEIF, not RAW to JPEG, for those difficult picture with a histogram which uses "all" of the 10 bit range.
 
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My monitors use HDMI, have a 12 bit colour LUT and 10 bit IPS panels which will display nearly a hundred percent of the aRGB colour space.

They are hardly even state of the art these days ...
 
Andy, I seem to recall that JPEG2000 was going to do all this too ...

According to a source of OS statistics I read occasionally, ALL Apple computing devices account for nearly the same numbers as people using Vista ... Around 4% of computers on the planet. Hardly the basis for a new standard.
You seem to be conflating different things but the specific aim is not clear.

There are indeed a great many computers on the planet performing all manner of tasks; bean counting for corporations, sewage treatment control systems, music studio recording, climate control, air traffic control systems, hospital patient care systems, transport logistics systems, inventory control, etc, etc... The list is constantly growing and could literally go on forever.

Standards used in each of those industries are standards that have evolved within those industries and have nothing to do with with global PC volumes.

Much of the standards work in the digital photo and video industry comes from the JPEG and MPEG bodies. Anyone who has ever captured and viewed a JPEG or watched a video on DVD or ripped from DVD, has condoned, supported and hopefully enjoyed the benefits of those standards. Those standards are simply evolving and hopefully bringing new benefits to be enjoyed.
 
I know that discussing two separate things in one post is hard for some here ... ;-) :-D ...
but it can be done!

Really though, lossless formats are very unlikely to be replaced by lossey formats anytime soon, just IMNSHO.

According to Apple propaganda, Apple devices rule the world. However, some of us would rather use parchment and a quill pen ... We use 5 Android devices in this household.

Even though my opinions of Google, Microsoft and Adobe are only slightly better than of Apple, to my knowledge, none of the others have deliberately used cleaners known to cause irreparable brain damage just to stick their logo on their devices ...

To each their own ...
 
I know that discussing two separate things in one post is hard for some here ... ;-) :-D ...
but it can be done!

Really though, lossless formats are very unlikely to be replaced by lossey formats anytime soon, just IMNSHO.

According to Apple propaganda, Apple devices rule the world. However, some of us would rather use parchment and a quill pen ... We use 5 Android devices in this household.
You may or may not have noticed that I have no interest in engaging in brand wars and the myths that surround them.

What strikes me about your comment is how blind hatred leads to blindness.

For example, what appears to be the largest camera supplier in the world has indeed announced that they are switching from one lossy format to a better one.
 
Keep repeating this until someone with authority comes along and asks you to stop. When asked, stop. Next look up the word 'rational' in the dictionary. Finally book an appointment with your therapist and/or anger management coach, but make sure you do this while the word rational is still in your head.
So I see that you are another person who thinks that expressing disagreement has to be done by portraying others as irrational or needing some kind of medical attention.

We all understand that you are enthusiastic about Apple's products and that the company has an influence on technology adoption, but instead of just insulting other people, you might wish to familiarise yourself with all the efforts to establish genuinely open standards for content. Such efforts do not occur without good reason. Indeed, they form the basis of the Internet you use today.

This may help you appreciate why people are not as enthusiastic as you are about whatever Apple has implemented in a future version of its proprietary operating system for its own proprietary hardware products, to which this thread appears to be a form of promotional consideration.
 
I know that discussing two separate things in one post is hard for some here ... ;-) :-D ...
but it can be done!

Really though, lossless formats are very unlikely to be replaced by lossey formats anytime soon, just IMNSHO.

According to Apple propaganda, Apple devices rule the world. However, some of us would rather use parchment and a quill pen ... We use 5 Android devices in this household.
You may or may not have noticed that I have no interest in engaging in brand wars and the myths that surround them.

What strikes me about your comment is how blind hatred leads to blindness.

For example, what appears to be the largest camera supplier in the world has indeed announced that they are switching from one lossy format to a better one.
Andy, please don't blow whatever validity your point might have by imputing motives and ideas to me that I have not stated and do not hold.

My intense dislike of Apple comes in part from their blatant damaging of their workers' brains. That is not "blind hatred" - it is "informed opinion" ...

--
br, john, from you know where
My gear list and sordid past are here: https://www.dpreview.com/members/1558378718/overview
Gallery: https://www.canopuscomputing.com.au/zen2/page/gallery/
 
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Keep repeating this until someone with authority comes along and asks you to stop. When asked, stop. Next look up the word 'rational' in the dictionary. Finally book an appointment with your therapist and/or anger management coach, but make sure you do this while the word rational is still in your head.
So I see that you are another person who thinks that expressing disagreement has to be done by portraying others as irrational or needing some kind of medical attention.

We all understand that you are enthusiastic about Apple's products and that the company has an influence on technology adoption, but instead of just insulting other people, you might wish to familiarise yourself with all the efforts to establish genuinely open standards for content. Such efforts do not occur without good reason. Indeed, they form the basis of the Internet you use today.

This may help you appreciate why people are not as enthusiastic as you are about whatever Apple has implemented in a future version of its proprietary operating system for its own proprietary hardware products, to which this thread appears to be a form of promotional consideration.
It would be interesting if we were playing poker face to face, because im sure the read you think you have on me would be the source of much sport.

It's also interesting you elected yourself spokesman for the forum (see bold above) in your attempt to pigeonhole me into something you understand, but it says far more about you than it does about me.

I have almost 40 years experience in IT, working from mainframe to embedded systems and pretty much most thing inbetween. For cameras, Ive used Canon, Leica, Nikon, Sony, Ricoh, Pentax, Panasonic, Olympus and Fujifilm (and probably a few I've forgotten). I make choices based on what works for me. For sure, past experiences will influence those choices.

--
Andy
Try reading comments with a smile. You may discover they were written that way.
 
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JPEG has been a faithful servant to photo Imaging for over a quarter of a century, but its endgame is now underway.

Superior compression, by way of High Efficiency Video Compression (HEVC/H.265), has been upon us for some time, but without mainstream support is has been playing only to the early adopter crowd.

Samsung were famously criticised for adopting it for video in their NX1 ILC.

With genuine benefits of superior IQ and better compression (smaller storage sizes) it seemed like a great choice, but without native support in workflow tools, it also turned into an obstacle, with most users needing to transcode it into an alternative format to work on it. This earned it a notable mention as both a 'Pro' and a 'Con' in the DPR review.

This all changes in a few weeks with the release of Apple's iOS 11 with native support for H.265 (HEVC for video and HEIF for stills). The upcoming MacOS High Sierra similarly provides native support for Mac computers.

The benefits are real, higher IQ in half the file size. In the internet world of storage and data transmission, size equates to speed and cost, the benefits are too great to ignore and adoption will accelerate rapidly.

Camera makers will be forced to comply.

And In turn this will mark a decision point for a great many of us photographers too, in our choice of shooting raw or HEIF (or both).

In the early days of DSLR, raw shooting was compelling, there were too many benefits to be ignored.
  1. Sensor dynamic range was lower (noise was higher). Raw allowed teasing more DR into the image which was relevant for many shooting scenarios.
  2. Framing and preview was done through an optical finder, meaning white balance performance could only be checked after the image was captured. For tricky/changing light, raw had the advantage of setting WB later.
  3. In camera image processing engines were slow, clumsy and lacking in sophistication; smearing away details, over-sharpening, applying dodgy tone curves and introducing compression artefacts. Raw allowed for more sophisticated processing downstream.
  4. JPEG output was 8 bit, just enough for excellent presentation, but lacking in flexibility for editing. Raw retains more image data for greater flexibility in editing.
For all these upsides, raw comes at a price, and that price is complexity, storage and time; collectively known as a raw workflow.

But as cameras have progressed, bit by bit these benefits have continually been gnawed away, especially for us mirrorless ILC users.

In ILCs, the use of liveview allows for more sophisticated WB analysis, better WB choices, and for a live preview of those choices to confirm the setting is correct, all before the shot is captured.

Improved sensor performance giving higher DR/less noise combined with better image processing and DRO techniques enable more DR to be captured without resorting to raw.

More sophisticated image processing engines allow for much more control (and creativity) over the rendering of the image in camera.

These benefits have already led some raw adopters back into the time and storage efficient world of JPEG shooting.

This is especially true for users of Canon, Olympus and Fujifilm cameras where the manufacturer has paid special attention to the image processing and colour science features of the camera. Nikon are not far behind and Panasonic finally started to get on board with the GH5, leaving Sony trailing the field in this area.

HEIF is the next advancement to chip away at the benefits of raw, because, in addition to providing smaller 8 bit output files, it also offers the option to use higher quality 10 bit colour while still retaining the file size advantage currently offered by an 8 bit JPG over raw.

Skip forward a year from now, after the firmware updates have rolled out and introduced HEIF support into cameras, lets say, on an E.M1.2.

As you take a shot:
  1. The dual quad-core processors perform billions of calculations per second helping the camera nail the metering and white balance.
  2. The liveview preview/histogram lets you see these are set correctly.
  3. The sensor captures the image data with 12 stops of DR.
  4. Lens corrections are applied to eliminate distortion and CA.
  5. Diffraction compensation is applied to maximise detail.
  6. DRO is applied to preserved your important shadow and highlight detail.
  7. Intelligent noise reduction applies your noise preferences.
  8. Sophisticated tone curves apply your colour and tonal preferences.
  9. The image is saved in a high quality 10bit file no bigger than your current JPG file.
  10. The image is as good, or pretty close, as anything you are currently getting from you raw workflow, but is now instantly usable for tweaking and publishing without the need for raw processing software.
When this is the norm, how many will still elect to use a raw workflow?

For sure there will always be a specialist demand for raw. And there will probably always be a genuine interest in preserving the digital negative, but for many of us, the days and hassle of processing the digital negative will be over and the most likely interaction most of will have with it is simply storing it somewhere safe.
wow sounds really impressive to me, I wonder if we all start complaining that the images look too processed or too digital or even too good and we will start using software to reintroduce noise and overexposure and so on to make things seem more real ;-)
 
I know that discussing two separate things in one post is hard for some here ... ;-) :-D ...
but it can be done!

Really though, lossless formats are very unlikely to be replaced by lossey formats anytime soon, just IMNSHO.

According to Apple propaganda, Apple devices rule the world. However, some of us would rather use parchment and a quill pen ... We use 5 Android devices in this household.
You may or may not have noticed that I have no interest in engaging in brand wars and the myths that surround them.

What strikes me about your comment is how blind hatred leads to blindness.

For example, what appears to be the largest camera supplier in the world has indeed announced that they are switching from one lossy format to a better one.
Andy, please don't blow whatever validity your point might have by imputing motives and ideas to me that I have not stated and do not hold.
You bring it upon yourself with these sideways swiping comments.

This is DPReview, a photography site. When you start a thread the active lifespan of that thread is 150 comments. When you introduce these tangential aspects you are doing a disservice to both other forum users and yourself.

It's a disservice to other users because it robs them of comment space for the photography related aspects of the discussion. It's a disservice to yourself because this is not the place for that discussion in any sense that could be considered meaningful.
My intense dislike of Apple comes in part from their blatant damaging of their workers' brains. That is not "blind hatred" - it is "informed opinion" ...
You may think it's informed, but unless you venture out into the real world and see what is really happening, your so called informed opinion will be little more than repetition of a particular flavor of propaganda that resonated with you.

Have you lived in Asia? Have you seen the breakfast time TV shows that interview the escaped hostages that were kidnapped off the streets and held captive in slave labour factories?

Did you know the reason they were kidnapped is because when Apple moved manufacture to China they insisted on employee working and living standards so high by Asian worker standards that almost every electronics worker in China quit their job to join the miles long queues in the hope of getting work at the 'Apple' factories?

Did you know that the response of other electronics companies was to send vans out onto the streets to kidnap people as forced workers so they could complete their contracts and avoid going out of business?

Did you know most of these kidnapped people were physically or mentally handicaped who had been abandoned by their family and were living on the streets, and so wouldn't be missed?

Did you know that countless products you enjoy the benefits of every day bare these peoples fingerprints?

The world is a very complex place. And it's really great that you are contemplating social responsibility, but this is a discussion about a high efficiency image format that improves on JPEG.
 
tlwalton wrote:. To be a widely adopted standard, that color space has to be displayable on common/utility devices, and we're back to sRGB.
Not without color management! And with color management, any color space will preview 'correctly'. Without color management, an application has no idea what sRGB means, nor the condition of the display via it's profile to produce a color managed preview (Display Using Monitor Compensation).

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices


How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

The downsides of an all sRGB workflow

sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices

The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology

Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4

Low resolution on YouTube:
 
It's also interesting you elected yourself spokesman for the forum (see bold above) in your attempt to pigeonhole me into something you understand, but it says far more about you than it does about me.
Excuse me for assuming that other forum participants might interpret your advocacy as enthusiasm.

And excuse me for not sharing your enthusiasm for these proprietary technologies and for daring to mention that they bring their own share of disadvantages.

And none of this is about me, by the way, so perhaps you should stop fixating on the supposed traits of people who happen to write things that you don't particularly like. Especially when it ventures towards provocative, if not offensive, remarks like those made earlier in this thread.
 
It's also interesting you elected yourself spokesman for the forum (see bold above) in your attempt to pigeonhole me into something you understand, but it says far more about you than it does about me.
Excuse me for assuming that other forum participants might interpret your advocacy as enthusiasm.

And excuse me for not sharing your enthusiasm for these proprietary technologies and for daring to mention that they bring their own share of disadvantages.

And none of this is about me, by the way, so perhaps you should stop fixating on the supposed traits of people who happen to write things that you don't particularly like. Especially when it ventures towards provocative, if not offensive, remarks like those made earlier in this thread.
Paul, lighten up man. This is meant to me fun right?

Go back and re-read my OP.

I mention H.265/HEVC

I mention Samsung included support on the video side - A background fact

I mention iOS 11 will bring support for both video and stills - A news fact

I then go on to speculate about the potential uptake and benefits for cameras, and in doing so pay compliments to the current OOC image processing features of Canon, Olympus and Fujifilm.

But what is the only thing you and a small few others want to focus on, my singular use of the 'A' word. Seriously, it is about you. Please lighten up and have fun here.
 
Having followed this discussion I can see that most of the posters here are folks with a tremendous fund of technical knowledge, knowledge which I do not possess. But I have one simple question, does all this technological advancement mean that my Kodak Box Brownie will soon be obsolete? ;-)

Cheers

Sup
 
Paul, lighten up man. This is meant to me fun right?
Quoting your earlier post:

"Finally book an appointment with your therapist and/or anger management coach, but make sure you do this while the word rational is still in your head."

This must be a new definition of fun.
But what is the only thing you and a small few others want to focus on, my singular use of the 'A' word. Seriously, it is about you. Please lighten up and have fun here.
I only care what organisations do, not what their names are.

On the one hand we have a product from a trillion dollar corporation. And yet, a single, reasonable objection to certain characteristics of that product is perceived as being so threatening, even when articulated by only one individual, that it apparently should not be heard.

And then, it is somehow more interesting to make this about the individual who articulated that thought. But I suppose we are all getting different things out of this "discussion".
 
... thanks for informing me of all those things I never knew anything about ... ;-) .

I agree with others here about your approach. Most here are not fools, and form opinions that seem good to them based on their reasons and experience.

I reiterate: image formats that were the next best thing litter all our general purpose imaging programs. This appears to be another grab for hegemony by Apple.
 
I think we have been here before, with jpeg2000, but it didn't catch on... and that was 17 years ago...

JPEG2000 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000
Yes, a few others have mentioned it too, but I don't really get the relevance.

I mean, obviously I understand it was also an improvement on JPEG, but as yourself and a few others have been quick to point out, it was a long time ago and it was never widely adopted, whereas in my OP what I was pointing out is that HEIF is being adopted. So that's a fairly major difference between the two, I think.

I think what I'm seeing in these handful of 'so what' type comments is essentially a group of people who are simply enjoying their mirrorless photography without much care about what's going on the wider photography arena.

If you look at this PetaPixel article:


In addition to the crazy sales graphs, I think the following paragraph does a pretty good job of bringing home the enormity of what has happened.

“In a nutshell, photography is more popular than it has ever been – take a look at the rise of Instagram or Snapchat, for example,” Skafisk tells PetaPixel. “But literally 98.4% of the consumer cameras sold in 2016 were built into smartphones – only 0.8% were compacts, 0.5% DSLRs, and 0.2% mirrorless.”

Smartphones are multifunctional devices.

They have always been good for phone calls, and great media players, and have become great app and gaming platforms.

But it's as a camera where the push for continual improvement has been most relentless in the quest to convince buyers to upgrade regularly, and consequently leading to the near death of the compact camera market.

And that push shows no sign of stopping, with dual focal length cameras, partnerships with leading lens makers, advanced color science and computational imaging and now the high efficiency image file advancements.

It really doesn't bother me that many people enjoy their photography via a smartphone camera, in the same way it doesn't bother me if people enjoy their photography via system cameras, I'm equally happy for all of them.

And if the constant push from smartphone suppliers should happen to wake up the system camera suppliers and get them focused on upping their game, that will be to my benefit and I'm happy for that too.
 
So what it really needs to take off is for Android to support the format I suppose, then it's a done deal. But until then i await with baited breath.
 

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