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MFT Pocketable solution?

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Tom Caldwell said:
Dryce said:
LMNCT said:
It took time for the public to figure out that the GM1 and GM5 are not "toys". If anyone at Panasonic has business sense, the GM line will live again.
Click to expand...
I think the GM family suffered from being seen as a secondary camera and it also went unnoticed by many who might have benefitted from it. It also wasn't cheap.

I came to the GM late - just as they were being run out last year. Even though I knew of it the size and capability wasn't something I really appreciated until I finally obtained one. When out and about with my GM1 I have been stopped several times by other phtographers enquiring what it is.

Panasonic probably also found that for the resource invested the GM family competed with the likes of the GX7 and the LX100 when it did make sales. And the poignant factor is that additional lens sales are limited - sticking the higher end lenses on the small GM family doesn't make a lot of sense - while at the lower/smaller end they probably make as many additional lens sales for Olympus as they do for themselves - despite the lack of in-body stablisation. This thread is about a GM with an Olympus BCL.
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Dryce,

Your next stage of realisation comes when you come to the point of understanding that the GM series is quite useful with the full range of M4/3 mountable lenses.

This is what excites rusted in GM enthusiasts and why they don't particularly like the GX850. Since when has a flip up lcd driven camera aced one with an evf (GM5) for the use of larger lenses?

For instance the GM5 is "a tiger" when fitted with a Nocticron 42.5/1.2 lens which actually has image stabilisation in the lens.

My such combo is quite innocuous when I am out and about compared to less involved users who have been sold a cheaper combination (enty level dslr + kit lens) as the best known way to achieve a proper-camera owner status. Oh and if I want a serious zoom the 35-100/2.8 will work just nicely and also has OIS.

So I just smile sweetly and don't care one bit. But they might wonder about those (relatively) big hunks of glass on such a little camera body - but they are happy and so we are all happy.
Click to expand...
 
peppermonkey said:
For the average person who wants to take photos of family or friends. We can talk crap about selfies all we want and we can be snobbish and say that real photographers used tripods but for spontaneous shots of friends and family, a flip screen to take photos of ourselves beats the living daylights out of all other options. And until we have cameras acting like drones to take those photos it is unlikely to change. They are very useful for a person like me with who wants to take a photo of me, wife and (almost) two year old while we are out and about. No amounts of EVF and large lens can beat that (until the day comes when the EVF can be installed on a contract lens).
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Not necessarily.

While travelling for example I can stash GM5+20mm in one coat pocket and a lens or two in another pocket. Or cargo pants. Not doable with DSLR.
 
PentaxNick said:
I think the problem is that such a Camera would never sell in the quantities to make it economically viable. For the vast majority of people the pocketable fixed focal length camera is the one they already own, their phone. The quality of images from phones and the processing power to simulate boneheaded, etc have come on tremendously over the past couple of years.

The argument that you can change lenses on the camera is not relevant as you are adding size and weight then, so you might as well take a fuller featured larger camera anyway, and it will handle better.

So I think the era of the small pocketable ILC has passed. The small pocketable compact will probably go the same way as phone cameras improve further. The niches such as drones and tough cameras will continue for a while, but phone devices will probably replace these too in time.
Click to expand...
 
PentaxNick said:
jaeae said:
NZ Scott said:
Tom Caldwell said:
My argument bascially agrees - about the only thing that could be seriously upgraded in the GM models is by fitting a 20mp sensor - my contention is that Panasonic are not going to fit such a sensor in a GM body before their more premuim models get it.
Click to expand...
I'd like weather sealing and a flip screen, the latter feature admittedly adding to the GM's svelte dimensions.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
NZ Scott said:
Tom Caldwell said:
My argument bascially agrees - about the only thing that could be seriously upgraded in the GM models is by fitting a 20mp sensor - my contention is that Panasonic are not going to fit such a sensor in a GM body before their more premuim models get it.
Click to expand...
I'd like weather sealing and a flip screen, the latter feature admittedly adding to the GM's svelte dimensions.
Click to expand...
Price sensitive enough as it is adding more weather sealing might push the asking price forever beyond what the market would pay.

Some progress could be made by removing mike and speakers as there would no longer need access ports in the body. Therefore a completely elecronically silent camera. Close off electonic port doors - no absolute need for them either. No issues from me but I might guess that these very hard to weather seal orifices to the innards of the camera might be the very stumbling block for many others.

Seal around battery door and lens mount might then be enough to give some sort of weather protection without breaking the RRP budget.

Flip screen? We already have the GX850.
 
paul613 said:
Does anyone know what percentage of people who buy a "no viewfinder" camera regret their choice?

I'd like to see makers of viewfinder cameras cite this as a selling point to raise awareness. If I recall correctly, a similar campaign was launched in American in the 2000s to discourage young people from becoming smokers: "XX percent of people who smoke wish they'd never started."
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Don't know how many people regret getting a no-VF camera, I simply won't even buy one to start with. even a camera with small VF is bad enough, not to mention without one.
 
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peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
People who buy "proper" cameras nowadays are enthusiasts who want control of ISO, aperture and shutter speed.

This means cameras need to have buttons and dials that fall easily to hand.

For that market, the GM5 is better than the GX850.

It will be interesting to see how well (or otherwise) the GX850 does in the market after a year or so.

S
Click to expand...
But those people didn't want to spend the $$$ that the GM's costs.

Which is why the GXxxx/GF lines actually sells.
Click to expand...
I dunno, man. The price doesn't seem that different to me. At least, not in my part of the world.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
NZ Scott said:
NZ Scott said:
The argument that you can change lenses on the camera is not relevant as you are adding size and weight then, so you might as well take a fuller featured larger camera anyway, and it will handle better.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this, as I regularly carry 2-3 little primes or zooms with my GM5, and the weight is still only half that of my G85 with 12-35 f/2.8.
Click to expand...
I'm with Scott on this. My GF9 (GX850/GX800) with 10x optical zoom (14-140mm) weighs just over 1 lb (~0.5kg) and I can hold it in the palm of my hand all day. "Fuller featured larger cameras" will be too heavy/bulky.
 
JakeJY said:
peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
People who buy "proper" cameras nowadays are enthusiasts who want control of ISO, aperture and shutter speed.

This means cameras need to have buttons and dials that fall easily to hand.

For that market, the GM5 is better than the GX850.

It will be interesting to see how well (or otherwise) the GX850 does in the market after a year or so.

S
Click to expand...
But those people didn't want to spend the $$$ that the GM's costs.

Which is why the GXxxx/GF lines actually sells.
Click to expand...
I dunno, man. The price doesn't seem that different to me. At least, not in my part of the world.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
peppermonkey said:
Tom Caldwell said:
Dryce said:
LMNCT said:
It took time for the public to figure out that the GM1 and GM5 are not "toys". If anyone at Panasonic has business sense, the GM line will live again.
Click to expand...
I think the GM family suffered from being seen as a secondary camera and it also went unnoticed by many who might have benefitted from it. It also wasn't cheap.

I came to the GM late - just as they were being run out last year. Even though I knew of it the size and capability wasn't something I really appreciated until I finally obtained one. When out and about with my GM1 I have been stopped several times by other phtographers enquiring what it is.

Panasonic probably also found that for the resource invested the GM family competed with the likes of the GX7 and the LX100 when it did make sales. And the poignant factor is that additional lens sales are limited - sticking the higher end lenses on the small GM family doesn't make a lot of sense - while at the lower/smaller end they probably make as many additional lens sales for Olympus as they do for themselves - despite the lack of in-body stablisation. This thread is about a GM with an Olympus BCL.
Click to expand...
Dryce,

Your next stage of realisation comes when you come to the point of understanding that the GM series is quite useful with the full range of M4/3 mountable lenses.

This is what excites rusted in GM enthusiasts and why they don't particularly like the GX850. Since when has a flip up lcd driven camera aced one with an evf (GM5) for the use of larger lenses?

For instance the GM5 is "a tiger" when fitted with a Nocticron 42.5/1.2 lens which actually has image stabilisation in the lens.

My such combo is quite innocuous when I am out and about compared to less involved users who have been sold a cheaper combination (enty level dslr + kit lens) as the best known way to achieve a proper-camera owner status. Oh and if I want a serious zoom the 35-100/2.8 will work just nicely and also has OIS.

So I just smile sweetly and don't care one bit. But they might wonder about those (relatively) big hunks of glass on such a little camera body - but they are happy and so we are all happy.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yannis1976 said:
Yannis1976 said:
For the average person who wants to take photos of family or friends. We can talk crap about selfies all we want and we can be snobbish and say that real photographers used tripods but for spontaneous shots of friends and family, a flip screen to take photos of ourselves beats the living daylights out of all other options. And until we have cameras acting like drones to take those photos it is unlikely to change. They are very useful for a person like me with who wants to take a photo of me, wife and (almost) two year old while we are out and about. No amounts of EVF and large lens can beat that (until the day comes when the EVF can be installed on a contract lens).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Tom Caldwell said:
JakeJY said:
peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
peppermonkey said:
NZ Scott said:
People who buy "proper" cameras nowadays are enthusiasts who want control of ISO, aperture and shutter speed.

This means cameras need to have buttons and dials that fall easily to hand.

For that market, the GM5 is better than the GX850.

It will be interesting to see how well (or otherwise) the GX850 does in the market after a year or so.

S
Click to expand...
But those people didn't want to spend the $$$ that the GM's costs.

Which is why the GXxxx/GF lines actually sells.
Click to expand...
I dunno, man. The price doesn't seem that different to me. At least, not in my part of the world.
Tom Caldwell said:
--
Hubert
My non-digital gear: Agfa Isolette, Ricohflex VII, Bessa R, Bessa L, Zorky 4, Fed 2, Konica Big Mini, Konica Auto S2, K1000, Yashica Electro 35 GX, Recesky
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/2457111090_00eafbf8a4_m.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
Click to expand...
--
-------------------------------
My Flickr stream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottkmacleod/
Click to expand...
In your part of the world they were but in the US the GF7 has an MSRP of $599USD with kit lens. While the GM5 was $899USD. And it seems AU$699 and AU$1099 respectively down under. Seems quite a big gap if you ask me.

--
Hubert
My non-digital gear: Agfa Isolette, Ricohflex VII, Bessa R, Bessa L, Zorky 4, Fed 2, Konica Big Mini, Konica Auto S2, K1000, Yashica Electro 35 GX, Recesky
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/2457111090_00eafbf8a4_m.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
Click to expand...
To be fair, near the end of life the GM1 and GM5 was sold at $400-500 in the US. There was some stock left over at Adorama for months at this price. Of course, given the MSRP, Panasonic (or the dealer) probably lost money at that price.
Click to expand...
Short of a lecture on how cost accounting works I cannot properly and technically respond to this common assertion.

But in very basic terms how it works in practice:

Lets say - make 10,000 units (any number will do for this equation)

The manufacturer might set a starting price so that once 60% were sold then the entire cost of producing them has been recovered. The lower the percentage necessary the lower the risk in the production decision. That means that the remainder can be sold at any price as what is recovered after the total cost of producing and selling has been recovered. Obviously the better price that can be achieved later in the model sales run the better the payback.

Obviously it is not as simple as this. If the manufacturer can get a higher starting RRP then the recovery percentage is lower. If the price is discounted early then a greater percentage might need to be sold to achieve "payback" (which is the technical accounting term for it).

If the price becomes low enough there will be no payback and it will be a disaster.

Usually the dealers need to get a fixed margin on product and cannot drop prices and survive unless they get a better buy price from the manufacturer. Of course some dealers may have made very large purchases to get a very favourable price and may end up with stocks they have to remainder off. But this works in exactly the same "payback" principle.

So it is poor mathematics just to average out cost of production and expect that this assumed cost is spread over each and every unit sold.

--
Tom Caldwell
Click to expand...
I'm talking specifically about the dealer selling below dealer cost (after all incentives and discounts). That unit would be counted as a loss to them. For a vast majority of models it is not necessary to sell below cost even for the last units. On the really popular models, the dealer price may even go up as the model matures (even if MSRP doesn't).

As for dealers not dropping prices on existing stock unless they got a better buy price from manufacturer, from my experience that is not true. The market is moving too rapidly for that to be a viable strategy. In fact, without price control programs by the manufacturers, a lot of the retailers would drop prices and take thin margins. Some of this is simply necessary in the face of large players like B&H (even though you don't get the same buy price as B&H, you have to lower your prices when B&H does, just to be competitive).

On the manufacturer side, each unit has a marginal cost. This may vary a bit with production volumes, but as you reach a certain point, it's pretty much going to be close to constant. As a manufacturer you do not want to sell below marginal cost as that unit is counted as a loss (doesn't matter that a couple quarters before the profits made would have covered for it).

I don't know how Panasonic works, but from my work, I deal with another large camera manufacturer and they don't do a single large batch of cameras at once and then sell from that stock (such that there are the price fluctuations per batch that you talk about). Rather, they rely on dealer forecasts and have a regular factory production schedule to supply that demand. Selling below marginal cost would directly hit their profits in that quarter (might even show a loss).

Perhaps if you want to look at the entire model life then count those last unprofitable units in, overall you still break even on the model or make small profit, but that's definitely not what a company would see as a successful model. And that doesn't help them when they have to report quarterly profits or loss (which is what the shareholders care about).

But accounting talk aside, the GM1 and GM5 were not discontinued because of a clear successor in the line (while the G6, GF7/8, GX7, GH4 all had clear successors). I think that's a pretty clear hint on the relative success of that line.
 
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The best combo ever! If pocketablity is the 2nd concern (but still being light) then grab a 15mm mm 1.7 panaleica!!! It gives you grip to handle that small body and have two more dials (mf dial and aperture ring on the lens)

Who ever says sony rx whatever is bull shutter! :) well maybe ONLY rx 1r can replace ;) with its bigger sensor.

Beno
 
Tom Caldwell said:
These would get flayed on the market as "compact cameras" - a mobile phone is what you need.
Click to expand...
Well, that might be. But I do find the bigger sensor noise performance and ability to smooth backround blurring needed. Ok, there are dual (or more) camera module phones coming with blurring ability, but a phone does not have control dials, buttons, EVF... etc.

I know the economics and marketing talk this forum is full of - All I can say is that I would buy a thin, pocketable, big sensor camera with WR in "shut up and take my money" style :)

Ricoh GR and Fuji x70 are very close. Just WR and EVF missing.
 
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I agree is "a solution" if one knows how to load it properly.

Earl

Madrid
 
jaeae said:
Tom Caldwell said:
These would get flayed on the market as "compact cameras" - a mobile phone is what you need.
Click to expand...
Well, that might be. But I do find the bigger sensor noise performance and ability to smooth backround blurring needed. Ok, there are dual (or more) camera module phones coming with blurring ability, but a phone does not have control dials, buttons, EVF... etc.

I know the economics and marketing talk this forum is full of - All I can say is that I would buy a thin, pocketable, big sensor camera with WR in "shut up and take my money" style :)

Ricoh GR and Fuji x70 are very close. Just WR and EVF missing.
Click to expand...
IMHO, you can't have thin and big sensor in one camera. My CM1 has a fixed 11.2 mm lens and 1" sensor but it is still not thin compared to pretty much any other phone. It would need to be even thicker to accomodate an m4/3 sensor.
 
Tom Caldwell said:
jaeae said:
NZ Scott said:
Tom Caldwell said:
My argument bascially agrees - about the only thing that could be seriously upgraded in the GM models is by fitting a 20mp sensor - my contention is that Panasonic are not going to fit such a sensor in a GM body before their more premuim models get it.
Click to expand...
I'd like weather sealing and a flip screen, the latter feature admittedly adding to the GM's svelte dimensions.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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