Canon +40% profit 70% growth in mirrorless.

Shipped equals sold, they don't gift these products to wholesalers and retailers.
no it doesn't.

Shipped includes returns, refunded products, CPS gear,etc and units in the supply chain in the remote region. while shipped and sales may end up being close over time, when you are looking at it from a 6 month perspective, if canon ships 2.5 million they may only sell 2 million in that given time frame.

Canon's end of year numbers of sold units only loosely matches CIPA shipped numbers.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements, particularly helpful in assessing turnover. If shipped does not equal sold, then why was it shipped. Moreover, why was it even made. Dragging down the cash conversion cycle doesn't help a business. If it is involved in, say, marketing efforts, then the marketing budget absorbs it and you still see the unit moved.
 
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Yes, checking their historical financial statements, they have been in a decline in imaging for roughly five years, with decreased revenue in the segment overall, and a decreased proportion of that revenue coming from cameras. Canon has a plan for growth, and it doesn't include cameras. The segment is specifically targeted for cost reduction, not sales volume increase. Focusing on one product class and a high percentage gain on a small count is myopic, at best. You can't increase in one half of a period but only match the prior period unless you had lost sales in the other half.
We are in the beginning stages, or at least Canon is. So, I will take this as a snapshot of their progress or their journey. What this shows are many, and I will not go into that. I've had my share on analyzing FS almost 20 years ago, and I will do a great injustice if I don't pore back 10 years or more from the past. I am not going to do that without getting paid! :)
Yes, at least with a publicly traded multinational they have to follow regulatory guidelines and we can be confident in their audited results. I'm not going to type up a full blown narrative analysis, but it was easy enough to download their 10 year historical BS/IS and common size them to get a quick look at trends. Wading through their media release to glean intent was also not difficult. I wouldn't do a whole lot more for free, but at least their balance sheets balance and the net profit from the income statement is also the same amount impacting retained earnings. It's disheartening when the in house statements of a business with several million dollars a year in revenue can't even get those details right, and I see that far too often. Or they carry noncollectable receivables on their aging report, for something ridiculous, like 800 days.
800 days? Really?
But from the standpoint of Sony and the others, Canon is lagging. And from what I know now and what I've read/hear/seen, what should worry them is their lag in R&D in the critical areas. Sony knows this and is pouring in all the gas, and pulling off the stops. They know they have the momentum and will take advantage of this lapse.

IN the early 2000's, I was still optimistic with Kodak. Why? Because they had tons of money, and they still had time to turns things around. Unfortunately, they still sat on digital and defined their future with what they were good at in the past. They still weren't into change 100%. They were in, in a perpetual search or testing the market. Canon must take a page or two from the lessons learned from Kodak.

I am still optimistic with what they can do (Canon). But really, they must really start taking the mirrorless cameras seriously! And don't be afraid to risk it all, and cannibalize your old cash cow! Their downfall, if it should come, is trying to protect their cash cows. That is a big mistake, because, all the money in the world is not going to cut it and make you catch up with the wrong mindset, hence wrong strategy to implement it. It always starts with - "the future is not dslr. how can we transition smoothly to mirrorless?"That's how they should be phrasing their situation.
That's the hard part about forecasting, pricing stocks, and gauging markets. It's all pure guesswork. Kodak had consumer digital camera tech back in the 70s, but weren't confident in its future (and of course it was severely limited early on). Then, when they went with Easyshare, they captured all that juicy market share, only to lose it. Blockbuster actually had the physical stores, a streaming service, and small automated rental boxes, with an overwhelming market lead, but now they're gone. Microsoft had to seed Apple with $250MM to keep them from going under and losing the only 'competition' they had to stave off even more monopoly charges, then a decade later the iPod starts them down the road to being the most valuable company on the planet. It's a realm full of SWAGs, not much more.
My degree is in Tech Management. So we are looking less at stocks and the like but their tech suite, their culture, their R&D efforts, and their focus. Then you compare that to its competitors and other industries and markets. That is what usually gets them, especially during inflection points or paradigm shifts. The one that kills you is not from the same industry. So, we also look at outside the industry.

Apple didn't get to move under Scully. yes, they were raking it in 2-3 years after they botted S. Jobs. But then again, this is a high tech company. And Scully didn't understand or know how to run a high tech company, where innovation is the name of the game. But their new CEO is not very impressive. He's going to lose all that 5-7 year lead in tech/R&D soon.

Steve Balmer was really bad for MS. I won't even go into details anymore. But when he was gone, under the new CEO, things are moving and are better.
Canon seems to see the decline in cameras as a continuing, probably irreversible trend, and they are defending the bottom line by cost cutting further, not seeking to innovate as much or as often. They don't seem to think they can bring in new consumers by marketing continuous new features. They can lean on their brand recognition and stock photos of 220 lenses piled together.
Actually that poor showing on the 2nd quarter says it all. If they flaunt that mirrorless sales is up, and seems to make a difference, no matter how small, they should ask themselves what would be their numbers had they not released a slew of M cameras!

If they do see this as an irrversible trend, defending the low end is not going to be sustainable. They know that for sure. But what are they going to do about it? And using your brand name can take you only so much. Not even an illustrious 50 or more years in the business is going to cut it. Rememer Kodak with over 130 years on its belt? Or IBM with 9 decades or more history being in the red in around early 1990's for 2 years straight? No, you can only use your good name for only so long till the people realize that the emperor is not wearing any clothes!
The general consumer doesn't know enough to care about most capabilities and features. They are, for the most part, well served by their smartphones. And smartphones continue to try to improve their stills and video capability, with the convenience of apps and browsers for instantly sharing what you've just captured. And the phone itself is always going to be carried, a camera can easily be left behind. Apparently more than 90% of unit sales for Canon are no higher spec than the Rebel series, so they can/will use incremental improvements without a lot of capital spending. They seem to always be several years behind in innovation because they don't have to be the innovators, and they don't see themselves as being able to make mistakes in cameras. They are expanding to new industries, no need to risk failure by a misstep in your most recognizable segment.
Well said.

It is sad though because in one of our case studies, we studied Canon and how it entered and beat Xerox in the 1980's and the others in the market. It seems that they are also committing the same mistake as the ones they unseated now, but only this time in the camera market. :(
I think they saw mirrorless as a difficult position to take point. As small as the bodies can get, they're still camera bodies. You can't make calls or send texts and emails with them. Still a secondary device to a phone, which can still take pictures. Battery life, af, ergos, these were all valid complaints that stem from new tech and the constraints of a small body and no mirror.
Well, it would be a mistake to make the entry level into cameras with cell phones. Samsung tried that with the Galaxy s4 camera-phone. No takers it seems, so it's stops there at s4. Now, Lenovo/Motorola wants to give it another go, but from the POV of a smartphone and with the ability to add lenses if one needs to or want to. In this way, you get the convenince and size of a phone, but if you want to get more range or photo moxy, you buy the attachments. Now whether that is smart or not, I am not going to hazard.

But it isn't as if this is a new approach. Sony did try the same attachment lenses that can stand alone as a camera (though without a viewfinder or screen to see your framing and focus). I don't think it got any traction either. But it was a good idea as it is brand neutral. But I think the tech at the time is not yet there, so maybe they should have persisted more.
Canon let others proof the market, make the investments, and got consumer response across a huge range of mirorless products while they made much smaller strides and spent far less on skus on he shelf while their dslrs still afford the most brand recognition. Once they go mirrorless, and if it is at a time when the bodies are bigger (with the consumer space now accepting bigger bodies, even demanding it due to battery/grip issues) and shooting performance is fast achieving parity with dslr with unique advantages and diminishing disadvantages - they now have the issue of all that tangible and intangible asset value tied up in their slr lenses. Notice how sparse the M mount lineup is. Canon isn't ready to switch, they are moving slowly.
Yes. obviously. And one can consider that smart or dumb. In my case, with the training I had and how we were taught, a bad move. Though it seems clever to let Sony, Panasonic, Fujifilm, develop the market, and get the feel where it will go, this also deprived them the learning experience to transition to mirrorless. And to me, that is a big loss. One might even say, that's how Kodak played the game! Wait and see. let's not panic. We are big, we can turn on a dime and use our millions to catch up.

Meanwhile, Fujifilm, who had less resources, took a different path. They knew film's time was over. And they understood clearly that it's no longer a battle of chemical giants. It's a battle of semiconductors! And he who can chart and have the right R&D on sensor and its needed processor and software, will survive. And they did!
The other thing is video. The fusion of photo and video has been decided years ago. And yet, they still treat it as separate things in their cameras. Even if their cameras have video, the video is never given the other supporting tools and features like their competitors. There is still no zebra, focus peaking, better codecs, etc. This is the 2nd big mistake in my opinion.
Further defense of existing product lines, likely from the same viewpoint. People will still buy Canon video products for the Canon name, and consumer sales of video products is not a sector to look to for growth. Perhaps they plan to make mirrorless a more fully featured video platform when they move to it and taper off from dslrs. Until then, it seems they, at most forward looking, are using both stills and video lines to generate sales and profits to perhaps invest in mirrorless that will integrate and dominate both. But again, can they leapfrog competitors in that space?
Good question! That is a smart and meaningful question that likely only one with an MBA or Phd asks! :)

My answer to that is NO. I am not privy to their R&D or what their focus will be in the next 3 years. BUT...

I have seen their products and know they are really lagging in key techs that can execute mirrorless correctly and effectively. This complaint of the 6d2 lacking dynamic range is just the tip of the problem. The other problem is that dual pixel tech, good as it may seem, has some side-effects that will later be a handicap, especially for some types of photography. But what got my suspicions confirmed is when I watched a video of a Canon engineer who explained why they didn't do 4k video, and why they couldn't do this or that. That confirmed my suspicion that indeed they were lagging in key technologies to move forward.

They have the strongest name around, but it is more and more being associated with less featured, less innovative products. Can they continue with a slow burn and take over the same mindshare that Sony and Panasonic have? I haven't a clue. But by limiting video in the less expensive products, they are taking a large risk.
They can take the slow burn for now. But eventually, people will wise up. They know there really is nothing for them to compete. And that is the thing with high-tech companies. Your R&D is your lifeline to the future. If you lag in it. You die.

And putting a mirrorless camera out, even with warts and all, is necessary to find out what you have missed in the internal R&D! Look at how much flack and criticism Sony got with their cameras in the early years! it lacks this, it's slow to AF, it's dynamic range is poor, etc. But Sony still brought out products. Why? Because the best way to learn is to bring it out and let the people use it and tell you what still needs to be fixed!

And trust me, even the simplest things, the engineers can overlook! Look at the M5? It's so fairly obvious that putting the flip lcd screen downwards is a stupid idea! Who does a selfie with the lcd screen at the bottom? A simple child or person with lots of common sense will tell you that if you do that, the tripod legs or center mount of the tripod will get in the way if you mount it on a tripod! That if you flip it that way, now you can't put the camera down in the table in case you don't have a tripod!

But there it is! It flips underneath the camera? Now why is that?

I can only think of one reason why. They still think in terms of dslrs! With dslrs, the eyepiece or ovf is in the middle of the camera! So, they put the EVF there! But why? You could have moved it to the end or either side! But no, it has to be in the middle! The LCD flip screen will adjust to the EVF! Dohh!

Vlogs, blogs, and youtube product reviews and discussions are major sources of information for consumers. No matter what anyoe on this, or any other, message board site may have to provide as expert or at least informed opinion, the tastemakers care about video and are harping on video. That affects consumer perceptions to some degree. Canon, in being so conservative, is bucking the trend. Is it hurting them now? No. Will it hurt their future product strategy? I don't know. Anyone ho claims to is nothing more than a seething hater or a frothing fanboy.
I think it is hurting them now. Not as much at this time, but it is. And it is solidifying other people to really leave the Canon fold. Or at least to take another look elsewhere. Now that's not good. Why? Because once a follower starts exploring other brands, then some will find that the grass indeed is greener on the other side. Now, if this was 2012, or even 2014, maybe that might not one to switch. But it's 2017. With what the a9 has shown possible, many now have a feeling that the a7 iii and the a6700 of the future is going to be a doozy of a camera!

And no matter how much people criticize Sony, to a better degree they are listening. I mean they are trying to address each and every other issue thrown at them. It's not yet fully there (like the silly lack of a fully functioning touch screen, or a fully articulating lcd)< but you see progress. And you know that they are throwing in every new tech in their latest models. they are not holding back.

As for Nikon, well, I will repeat it for the nth time - Nikon needs a new CEO from the outside, and needs to change upper mg't team with those who are forward thinking. It's almost too late for them. Their problem is not of competency. Their problem is similar to Canon, except they have less resources to execute. And they are wasting time and resources in the same things and they call it progress.
Agreed, a race to the bottom and an inability to see a way to improve to retain consumers, rather than cut costs to float while you bleed customers, is a sure road to failure.
2017 is a coasting year for Canon and Nikon. They can still rest on their names and reputation to keep their fans. But they way I look at it, Sony, Fuji and others are not banking on their fans. If they switch, fine. If not, still no problem. I think, they know that the low end is basically done for. You just keep an a5100 down there or a a5000 there just to keep the low end a rope to latch on to. And the a6000 something to fill in the price point so it will just be a place holder and Sony does not have a price segment empty for competitors to take their position from.

Now, based on the fist half of Canon's FS, what does this tell Canon? Or Nikon for that matter? Where does the profit or margin will really come from? It's the upper segment, naturally. But what have they been doing at it lately? I'd say, not much. The 6d2 is an example. U$2,000 is not peanuts. You'd think they would have given more for that price. But they are protecting their 5d4 and their video cams lineup! Heaven forbid that Sony's A7 iii will not be as good! Because if it has 4k, more AF points, border to border, a fast AF, eye and face tracking, etc, etc, for U$1,800, it will highlight the discrepancy of the 2 cameras!

On the low and mid-end, they are also doing just place marker products. The new SL2 at the lowest, retaining the 750d/760d for that segment, the a800/77d, the 80d, the 7d II, 6d2, 5d4, 1dx2,. You can see that it does not really have so much rhyme or reason except to put a product to cover a price range.

Meanwhile, Sony alone makes things easy to understand. The a5000 if you want a cheap sony selfie like camera that is easy to use. Get the better a5100 if you want easy to use but the AF and 24mp of the a6000. Get the A6000 if you want the evf and more manual overrides too. Get the a6300 if you want 4k, and a big jump in AF performance. Get the a6500 if you want the same as the a6300 plus IBIS, touch screen, more buffer for sports shooting, etc.

For the 35FF, the a7, is the lowest and oldest of the a7 general purpose camera. It's not as good as the 6d, but for U$1,000 and U$1,200 with a 50 f1.8 fe lens, you have an entry level all purpose 35FF mirrorless. The A7s is for low light, and the A7R line is for high pixels. The a9 is the best in AF speed and the best they can for a truly balanced performing camera that can do almost all.

To me, this is how simple the Sony lineup is. I even know how the Fujifilm lineup's makes sense! Or the Panasonic! But the Canon? I am confused. I get the feeling that I am not getting my money's worth.

Now, can Canon still turn things around?

Absolutely yes.

BUT ...

They really have to commit 100% to mirrorless and video. No more of this style of upgrades. Even if they make mistakes, they have to go for it. Just like Sony did. it should be, "damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" for Canon!
 
They really have to commit 100% to mirrorless and video. No more of this style of upgrades. Even if they make mistakes, they have to go for it. Just like Sony did. it should be, "damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" for Canon!
why?

Canon controls a significant portion of the ILC industry, and even their mirrorless has sustained growth in emerging markets - sans video and this 100% commitment whatever that is, to mirrorless. if mirrorless or video was so important canon would not be controlling this much of the market.

mirrorless is simply removing the optical viewfinder mirror,etc from the current EF camera bodies. what good will that realize and where's the conceivable sales spike?

Canon's demonstrating that smaller kits, such as the M and it's associated lenses are successful. Obviously. So why would they change that formula because enthusiasts don't want it?

Enthusiasts are a dying breed - that's a sure fired way to lose entire market by continually and only catering to them.

Sony isn't showing the way to go forward. their camera unit numbers have been shedding double digits each year. their rapid pace of camera replacement and small marketshare are going to hit a wall. you simply can't expect your users to continue to upgrade. sooner or later .. the majority are in the "good enough" category.

there's no credible evidence that video and stills hybrids are increasing business for any company - as a matter of fact, the only evidence we have is of panasonic, where if anything, the reverse has happened.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables. CIPA means utterly nothing to me. That tells absolutely no one anything about the efficiency, profitability, or management trends at any particular corporation. I rely on the accuracy of statements produced under fiduciary duty carried by legal weight. I don't care what a third party reports with regards to this. I have secondary concerns in what any retailers sell. Of primary concern is what the manufacturer sells to wholesalers and/or retailers. That is where they generate profits or suffer losses. If things are going poorly in the retail space, that is reflected in the manufacturer's financial statements as retailers will respond in their own purchasing activity.
 
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For those of us that have already been enjoying mirrorless cameras for the last 4 years, this is no surprise. What is surprising to me is that Nikon hasn't built an APS or FF mirrorless yet.
it should be a suprise to many that canon's growth has exceeded (maybe) that of mirrorless in the first half of this year, which means they are taking marketshare away from the established players.

it's no surprise to me.. i've always said that mirrorless will take over when canon or nikon deem it so, and that's happening more so this year than any other.
Well mirrorless shipments are up 64% in unit terms and 67% in value terms globally (for the first 5 months), so companies showing 'only' 50% growth are losing market. I doubt they are complaining though. I dont think Canon gaining market share in this segment is particularly surprising because they are off a pretty low base.

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I doubt that Canon would even have an aps mirrorless today, if Fuji and Sony hadn't paved the way.
I doubt sony and fuji would have went "mirrorless" if canon and nikon didn't so completely dominate them on the DSLR stage.
Competition drives a lot of innovation. That conclusion doesn't diminish the value of the new camera design - i.e. the mirrorless.
except it wasn't a new camera design.
Now you are arguing semantics.
No i'm not. Lecia had mirrorless offerings of cropped and full frame before it was even a glint in Sony's eye. Not to mention that the entire principal is based upon rangefinders.
Umm...the entire principal is based on rangefinders? Do you know what a rangefinder is?! Modern mirrorless cameras do not use a rangefinder!!!
Semantics. it's not through the lens optical viewfinder. short registration distance camera, with alternative method of using a viewfinder. makes for smaller primes,etc.

Yeah no commonality.

companies like leica translated from rangefinders to mirrorless first.
I have several older non-rangefinder cameras that also do not have a mirror-based viewfinder (with a pentaprism...aka SLR). I have a medium format folding camera. I have Mamiya Twin-Lens Reflex.
 
This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
What you are saying is that Canon ships products without selling them. No invoicing, no adjustment to inventory, no change in revenues or cogs, completely losing positive control of the items and having no compensating entries, yet I'm not supposed to know what I'm talking about. you also seen to think that half a million units are just floating about, weighing on carrying costs in a declining market, and that Canon hasn't earned a dime on them. Your position is beyond untenable, it is ludicrous.
 
This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
What you are saying is that Canon ships products without selling them.
Sigh.. why do you have to be so difficult. this really isn't hard.

what I'm saying is that there has been in the past, and most likely will be in the future differences between what canon says the market is and what CIPA says.

I was taking canon's sold numbers and comparing them to CIPA's shipped numbers. that should have been obvious to you by now. it's the only way to "estimate" marketshare.

their sold versus shipped could be two different things.

In the past CIPA, IDC and Canon all disagree on how many cameras are sold/shipped in a given year.

for example; is canon reporting when the canon japan "sells" to canon USA? or is it when canon USA sells to the end retailer? or is it when the end retailer sells to the customer. Sold cameras implies it's to the end customer. if so, that ignores everything in the supply chain when compared against CIPA data for marketshare. it would make sense if it was end customer since they report on imaging system sales which is obviously derived based upon regional data.

if it's any other than when canon japan sells to their regional corps then the numbers will not correlate 100%.

you are making this more complicated than what it is, stop trying to look smart. it's really not working.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
What you are saying is that Canon ships products without selling them.
Sigh.. why do you have to be so difficult. this really isn't hard.

what I'm saying is that there has been in the past, and most likely will be in the future differences between what canon says the market is and what CIPA says.

I was taking canon's sold numbers and comparing them to CIPA's shipped numbers. that should have been obvious to you by now. it's the only way to "estimate" marketshare.

their sold versus shipped could be two different things.

In the past CIPA, IDC and Canon all disagree on how many cameras are sold/shipped in a given year.

for example; is canon reporting when the canon japan "sells" to canon USA? or is it when canon USA sells to the end retailer? or is it when the end retailer sells to the customer. Sold cameras implies it's to the end customer. if so, that ignores everything in the supply chain when compared against CIPA data for marketshare. it would make sense if it was end customer since they report on imaging system sales which is obviously derived based upon regional data.

if it's any other than when canon japan sells to their regional corps then the numbers will not correlate 100%.

you are making this more complicated than what it is, stop trying to look smart. it's really not working.
This is laughable, as I am keeping it to the simplest function, converting inventory into sales. You wish to obfuscate through irrelevant references, go ahead. Canon themselves report on their own financial condition and on the results of operations. If you choose to ignore their own data that they have to report with enough accuracy to prevent arrests, seizures, or a sell off, feel free. Canon does not earn a dime when you buy a body from retailer, they literally cannot report sales that way. That is not how reporting for proper governance works. Canon earned when they sold to the retailer. If Canon wishes to report sell through, they can and will. That will not match their sales on their p&l if there is any inventory held at any seller down the supply chain. That you see this as complicated is telling.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
What you are saying is that Canon ships products without selling them.
Sigh.. why do you have to be so difficult. this really isn't hard.

what I'm saying is that there has been in the past, and most likely will be in the future differences between what canon says the market is and what CIPA says.

I was taking canon's sold numbers and comparing them to CIPA's shipped numbers. that should have been obvious to you by now. it's the only way to "estimate" marketshare.

their sold versus shipped could be two different things.

In the past CIPA, IDC and Canon all disagree on how many cameras are sold/shipped in a given year.

for example; is canon reporting when the canon japan "sells" to canon USA? or is it when canon USA sells to the end retailer? or is it when the end retailer sells to the customer. Sold cameras implies it's to the end customer. if so, that ignores everything in the supply chain when compared against CIPA data for marketshare. it would make sense if it was end customer since they report on imaging system sales which is obviously derived based upon regional data.

if it's any other than when canon japan sells to their regional corps then the numbers will not correlate 100%.

you are making this more complicated than what it is, stop trying to look smart. it's really not working.
This is laughable,
yes it is, you rebutted a comment I made and you didn't even know the context, and you still don't.

you keep replying as if you are knowledgeable - yet, you can't even read or have a discussion.

How do you THINK marketshare is even mentioned in this thread? right from the first post? Frankly I don't care what you think your posts are about, I created the thread. Not you. I was clarifying marketshare, and yet you STILL don't get it.

god.. what a dimwit.
 
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This is resolved in the financial statements
wrong.

we're talking two different reporting agencies. one is canon on their financials the other is CIPA.
"We" are doing no such thing. I am talking about resolving movement of cash, inventory, adjustments to intercompany entries, and changes to receivables and payables.
no, actually you weren't.

you were responding to a comment from me which stated shipments do not equal sales.

"did canon actually lose marketshare? right now I have canon somewhere around 42-44%, in 2015 at this time they were at 44.5% last year at 49%. of course this is using shipped versus sold units, so in actuality the %'s are higher."

and you responded yes, they do.

so basically what you are now saying is that you have no idea what you were talking about.
What you are saying is that Canon ships products without selling them.
Sigh.. why do you have to be so difficult. this really isn't hard.

what I'm saying is that there has been in the past, and most likely will be in the future differences between what canon says the market is and what CIPA says.

I was taking canon's sold numbers and comparing them to CIPA's shipped numbers. that should have been obvious to you by now. it's the only way to "estimate" marketshare.

their sold versus shipped could be two different things.

In the past CIPA, IDC and Canon all disagree on how many cameras are sold/shipped in a given year.

for example; is canon reporting when the canon japan "sells" to canon USA? or is it when canon USA sells to the end retailer? or is it when the end retailer sells to the customer. Sold cameras implies it's to the end customer. if so, that ignores everything in the supply chain when compared against CIPA data for marketshare. it would make sense if it was end customer since they report on imaging system sales which is obviously derived based upon regional data.

if it's any other than when canon japan sells to their regional corps then the numbers will not correlate 100%.

you are making this more complicated than what it is, stop trying to look smart. it's really not working.
This is laughable,
yes it is, you rebutted a comment I made and you didn't even know the context, and you still don't.

you keep replying as if you are knowledgeable - yet, you can't even read or have a discussion.

How do you THINK marketshare is even mentioned in this thread? right from the first post? Frankly I don't care what you think your posts are about, I created the thread. Not you. I was clarifying marketshare, and yet you STILL don't get it.

god.. what a dimwit.
This is coming from the person who does not know what marketshare is. Once you figure out who Canon's customers are, as in the entities that actually buy from Canon and actually compensate Canon on the transactions, perhaps you will gain an inkling of understanding. Or perhaps you think all retailers on the planet are pegged at right around the same level of idiocy you demonstrate, endlessly stacking shelves with unsold units. In your special corner of reality, they all exhibit the same level of dimwitted myopia that you have cultivated over a lifetime of disappointing any who are unfortunate to experience your blathering. If you wish to continue to post abject stupidity in your thread, I will continue to point it out.
 
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For those of us that have already been enjoying mirrorless cameras for the last 4 years, this is no surprise. What is surprising to me is that Nikon hasn't built an APS or FF mirrorless yet.
it should be a suprise to many that canon's growth has exceeded (maybe) that of mirrorless in the first half of this year, which means they are taking marketshare away from the established players.

it's no surprise to me.. i've always said that mirrorless will take over when canon or nikon deem it so, and that's happening more so this year than any other.
Well mirrorless shipments are up 64% in unit terms and 67% in value terms globally (for the first 5 months), so companies showing 'only' 50% growth are losing market. I doubt they are complaining though. I dont think Canon gaining market share in this segment is particularly surprising because they are off a pretty low base.

--
http://www.salintara.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robcoll/
I doubt that Canon would even have an aps mirrorless today, if Fuji and Sony hadn't paved the way.
I doubt sony and fuji would have went "mirrorless" if canon and nikon didn't so completely dominate them on the DSLR stage.
Competition drives a lot of innovation. That conclusion doesn't diminish the value of the new camera design - i.e. the mirrorless.
except it wasn't a new camera design.
Now you are arguing semantics.
No i'm not. Lecia had mirrorless offerings of cropped and full frame before it was even a glint in Sony's eye. Not to mention that the entire principal is based upon rangefinders.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that DSLRs are really mirrorless and Canikon has been making them all along. lol My point is that Canikon was not using mirrorless as their large sensor image maker of choice, aps and FF. until Fuji and Sony and m4/3 got to be 36% of ILC,
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.

Especially with Sony still stuck at less than14% overall marketshare - it's definitely not them.

If sony had such a bump up in marketshare, they'd be screaming it from the rooftops every month - because that's sony.
and then Canon started paying attention.
Oh please. Canon started down it's current path with the release of the 70D back in 2013. So yeah, they really started paying attention lately.
Sony started their string of tiny Nex mirrorless cameras, the 5 and 3, back in 2010, 3 years before, but thanks for bringing that up.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
I think you forgot you are in the News forum here and your title specifically mentioned mirrorless growth in sales. Canon's done well in mirrorless growth but so have the other companies that are solely engaged in mirrorless. I dont know where your hatred of all things Sony comes from, but its amusing and predictable.

--
Phil B
Skipped the first word of the title dud you? This had nothing to do with Sony. You continued pushing of all things Sony even in subjects not to do with Sony is embarrassing.

I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I know what you are driving at but Sony , particularly in the mirrorless word, is hardly irrelevant.
 
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.
Aren't you embarrassed by this? The Canon mirrorless system doesn't even have a single enthusiast lens - let alone a pro one. The only camera with a viewfinder has a spec comparable to the A6000.

I can understand that you would want to see the brand you favour dominate sales - but at any cost? If Canon become number one in mirrorless they will literally set the market back.

I don't want to see companies fail or lose too much money but it's better for everyone if the market leading brand is also - if not the technological leader - at least pushing the envelope.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
Dual Pixel is a good example of the incoherence of Canon's current mirrorless strategy. 17 million AF points translates to 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points on the M5. The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. What's the point in having 17 million points if it is beaten for coverage by a system with 179?
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
Of course there is no mirror in a rangefinder camera but it would be disingenuous to claim that Leica invented the mirrorless camera - they just substituted a sensor for film in their rangefinder. The mirrorless camera is generally regarded as an ILC with a full time digital readout of the sensor for viewing and framing, either an EVF or a rear screen, and the M9 didn't have that. You could only review your pictures on the rear screen, there was no live view.

The concept is not a big deal anyway - it's essentially a pro-grade bridge camera with interchangeable lenses.
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
Like most things, the public decides, but no-one said it was a fair fight. We know from marketing analysis that Canon's brand awareness is sky high and probably the deepest in the market. It didn't get that way by chance - they were the market leaders in technology, but now they are the market leaders in sales.
I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a favoured brand - it's something we all do, across all areas of our lives. It becomes a problem when we use it to deny reality. Sony is driving modern camera development and has been doing so for many years now. They are undeniably relevant - in fact they could not be more relevant.

If you don't accept this, take up your M3, or M5 or whatever mirrorless camera you have and consider that a camera like that, a mirrorless camera, got the same grade - 89% and matched or out-performed the 1DxII and D5 in a test on this website.

No matter how cynically pro Canon and anti Sony you are that's simply amazing. And it is undeniably very relevant to the future.
 
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.
Aren't you embarrassed by this? The Canon mirrorless system doesn't even have a single enthusiast lens - let alone a pro one. The only camera with a viewfinder has a spec comparable to the A6000.

I can understand that you would want to see the brand you favour dominate sales - but at any cost? If Canon become number one in mirrorless they will literally set the market back.

I don't want to see companies fail or lose too much money but it's better for everyone if the market leading brand is also - if not the technological leader - at least pushing the envelope.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
Dual Pixel is a good example of the incoherence of Canon's current mirrorless strategy. 17 million AF points translates to 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points on the M5. The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. What's the point in having 17 million points if it is beaten for coverage by a system with 179?
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
Of course there is no mirror in a rangefinder camera but it would be disingenuous to claim that Leica invented the mirrorless camera - they just substituted a sensor for film in their rangefinder. The mirrorless camera is generally regarded as an ILC with a full time digital readout of the sensor for viewing and framing, either an EVF or a rear screen, and the M9 didn't have that. You could only review your pictures on the rear screen, there was no live view.

The concept is not a big deal anyway - it's essentially a pro-grade bridge camera with interchangeable lenses.
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
Like most things, the public decides, but no-one said it was a fair fight. We know from marketing analysis that Canon's brand awareness is sky high and probably the deepest in the market. It didn't get that way by chance - they were the market leaders in technology, but now they are the market leaders in sales.
I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a favoured brand - it's something we all do, across all areas of our lives. It becomes a problem when we use it to deny reality. Sony is driving modern camera development and has been doing so for many years now. They are undeniably relevant - in fact they could not be more relevant.

If you don't accept this, take up your M3, or M5 or whatever mirrorless camera you have and consider that a camera like that, a mirrorless camera, got the same grade - 89% and matched or out-performed the 1DxII and D5 in a test on this website.

No matter how cynically pro Canon and anti Sony you are that's simply amazing. And it is undeniably very relevant to the future.
Well said. I find this loyalty to a specific brand to be odd behavior. Its just a piece of hardware - its not a religion or anything. Course that behavior on my part didn't endear me to fellow Pentax owners when i owned more of that brand. Before Pentax, i had a Canon camera. Will i stay long in the Sony camp, I don't know but after 2 years of shooting Sony, i'm still smiling when i go out shooting with the A7r2.
 
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.
Aren't you embarrassed by this? The Canon mirrorless system doesn't even have a single enthusiast lens - let alone a pro one. The only camera with a viewfinder has a spec comparable to the A6000.

I can understand that you would want to see the brand you favour dominate sales - but at any cost? If Canon become number one in mirrorless they will literally set the market back.

I don't want to see companies fail or lose too much money but it's better for everyone if the market leading brand is also - if not the technological leader - at least pushing the envelope.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
Dual Pixel is a good example of the incoherence of Canon's current mirrorless strategy. 17 million AF points translates to 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points on the M5. The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. What's the point in having 17 million points if it is beaten for coverage by a system with 179?
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
Of course there is no mirror in a rangefinder camera but it would be disingenuous to claim that Leica invented the mirrorless camera - they just substituted a sensor for film in their rangefinder. The mirrorless camera is generally regarded as an ILC with a full time digital readout of the sensor for viewing and framing, either an EVF or a rear screen, and the M9 didn't have that. You could only review your pictures on the rear screen, there was no live view.

The concept is not a big deal anyway - it's essentially a pro-grade bridge camera with interchangeable lenses.
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
Like most things, the public decides, but no-one said it was a fair fight. We know from marketing analysis that Canon's brand awareness is sky high and probably the deepest in the market. It didn't get that way by chance - they were the market leaders in technology, but now they are the market leaders in sales.
I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a favoured brand - it's something we all do, across all areas of our lives. It becomes a problem when we use it to deny reality. Sony is driving modern camera development and has been doing so for many years now. They are undeniably relevant - in fact they could not be more relevant.

If you don't accept this, take up your M3, or M5 or whatever mirrorless camera you have and consider that a camera like that, a mirrorless camera, got the same grade - 89% and matched or out-performed the 1DxII and D5 in a test on this website.

No matter how cynically pro Canon and anti Sony you are that's simply amazing. And it is undeniably very relevant to the future.
Well said. I find this loyalty to a specific brand to be odd behavior. Its just a piece of hardware - its not a religion or anything. Course that behavior on my part didn't endear me to fellow Pentax owners when i owned more of that brand. Before Pentax, i had a Canon camera. Will i stay long in the Sony camp, I don't know but after 2 years of shooting Sony, i'm still smiling when i go out shooting with the A7r2.
Specs aren't everything. I'm smiling with my M5, with the 22mm f2 and the sweet 11-22mm. And my pre-existing 50mm and 85mm primes.

Getting the same in Sony would have cost me a lot more.

--
Phil B
 
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.
Aren't you embarrassed by this? The Canon mirrorless system doesn't even have a single enthusiast lens - let alone a pro one.
err 3 word come to mind here pot, kettle black i would call myself an enthusiast and sony don't have any APS-c lenses i would want for a compact system ... ALL the EFm lenses are very much better than the sony equivalents....canon cheap lenses are way better than sony affordable lense ..including the EF-S lenses as well ....sony do some very good expensive lenses like the £800GBP 24mm F1.8 ..but the 22F2 is sharper and canons bargain basement £100GBP EF-s 24mmF2.8 will match it...however i like the sony 24F1.8 bokeh a little better
The only camera with a viewfinder has a spec comparable to the A6000.
i must have missed the excellent touch interface ..very good ergonomics..intuitive menus, DPAF ..large 3x2 LCD....on the A6000 ...i will have another look at it
I can understand that you would want to see the brand you favour dominate sales - but at any cost? If Canon become number one in mirrorless they will literally set the market back.

I don't want to see companies fail or lose too much money but it's better for everyone if the market leading brand is also - if not the technological leader - at least pushing the envelope.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
Dual Pixel is a good example of the incoherence of Canon's current mirrorless strategy. 17 million AF points translates to 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points on the M5. The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. What's the point in having 17 million points if it is beaten for coverage by a system with 179?
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
Of course there is no mirror in a rangefinder camera but it would be disingenuous to claim that Leica invented the mirrorless camera - they just substituted a sensor for film in their rangefinder. The mirrorless camera is generally regarded as an ILC with a full time digital readout of the sensor for viewing and framing, either an EVF or a rear screen, and the M9 didn't have that. You could only review your pictures on the rear screen, there was no live view.
whare do it say that then .....
The concept is not a big deal anyway - it's essentially a pro-grade bridge camera with interchangeable lenses.
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
Like most things, the public decides, but no-one said it was a fair fight. We know from marketing analysis that Canon's brand awareness is sky high and probably the deepest in the market. It didn't get that way by chance - they were the market leaders in technology, but now they are the market leaders in sales.
I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a favoured brand - it's something we all do, across all areas of our lives. It becomes a problem when we use it to deny reality. Sony is driving modern camera development and has been doing so for many years now. They are undeniably relevant - in fact they could not be more relevant.
if sony is the driving force then why when in 2008 they had 12-14% market share selling DSLRs could not compete with Canikon so failed with DSLRs then they try SLTs again only hit 12-14% ..so another fail.....now sony has been selling MILC for...5 years? and have increased their market share by.....drum role....0% ......to me that's a fail which ever way you slice it .....did you know canon just picked up another 2% market share ....

i do feel sorry for sony putting so much R&D in MILC and if you search wikileaks you can find the leaked emails from sony head office that confirms the MILC R&D cost so much that it was one of the reasons that sony had the recent restructuring

so sony has revealed how the MILC market is going way better than canon could with no cost to canon ...(canon has lost no sales to sony..the numbers prove that)....canon has the tech for a excellent MILC ..it hidden in other cameras now never mind what thay are working on ...like the one of the big things with the A9 and is said to be a game changer it the EVF is real time with no black out at 20FPS ....canon has had that at 14 FPS 18 month ago with the 1DXii in live view... nobody has mentioned it as its not have an EVF..so not used...why would you for 2 FPS ...but that's immaterial canon can do it ...also DPAF .....that's screaming out for a MILC with lots of processing power...and i imagine the MK11 DPAF will be out for the Canon FF MILC i think canon will than have the best AF in a MILC
If you don't accept this, take up your M3, or M5 or whatever mirrorless camera you have and consider that a camera like that, a mirrorless camera, got the same grade - 89% and matched or out-performed the 1DxII and D5 in a test on this website.

No matter how cynically pro Canon and anti Sony you are that's simply amazing. And it is undeniably very relevant to the future.
 
again, false.

since Canon was #2 in Japan a year ago, and two years ago they stated they wanted to be #1 in two years. it's highly unlikely that it was just them.

They overtook Sony domestically. Since the intent and marketability of Japan versus Asia cameras is nearly the same (from the CIPA value per unit perspective) it's unlikely that this also didn't translate to the rest of Asia.

Especially when you consider that ONLY canon has been touting selling boatloads of mirrorless to Asia for the last 5 fiscal summaries and no one else has.

Coincidentally, it's Asia that consumes the majority of shipments of mirrorless.

So yeah .. sony and fuji .. dream on.
Aren't you embarrassed by this? The Canon mirrorless system doesn't even have a single enthusiast lens - let alone a pro one.
err 3 word come to mind here pot, kettle black i would call myself an enthusiast and sony don't have any APS-c lenses i would want for a compact system ... ALL the EFm lenses are very much better than the sony equivalents....canon cheap lenses are way better than sony affordable lense ..including the EF-S lenses as well ....sony do some very good expensive lenses like the £800GBP 24mm F1.8 ..but the 22F2 is sharper and canons bargain basement £100GBP EF-s 24mmF2.8 will match it...however i like the sony 24F1.8 bokeh a little better
They aren't better Dave. I've endured years of being told how brilliant the 22/2 was. Unfortunately DPreview recently published a gallery of photos of it. I was shocked. It's about the same quality as the Sigma 30/2.8.

But none of this matters. The point is the M series only has consumer grade lenses. Where are the enthusiast primes and L lenses? There aren't any. It's ridiculous to argue this. Sony E- mount is a full system with lenses at every level and the most technically advanced cameras available - it's also a cinema lens mount. Canon M is a boutique system with very low level spec gear. That's just the reality. Perhaps one day it will be like the E-mount, but it isn't at the moment.
The only camera with a viewfinder has a spec comparable to the A6000.
i must have missed the excellent touch interface ..very good ergonomics..intuitive menus, DPAF ..large 3x2 LCD....on the A6000 ...i will have another look at it
You should. Sony dropped the touch screens from their cameras because they were getting stick over them being an amateur feature - the 5100 has one. The spec of the 5100 is actually closer to that of the M5 - I only mentioned the A6000 because the 5100 doesn't have a viewfinder. See my reply to rrccad about ergonomics. DPAF? The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. The M5 has 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points. You seem out of touch regarding Sony mirrorless Dave. It's not like the NEX days anymore. I had a NEX 5 and it was so slow as to be unusable.
I can understand that you would want to see the brand you favour dominate sales - but at any cost? If Canon become number one in mirrorless they will literally set the market back.

I don't want to see companies fail or lose too much money but it's better for everyone if the market leading brand is also - if not the technological leader - at least pushing the envelope.
two years actually canon came up with the M in 2012. DPAF sensors made their foray into the world in 2013. 17 million PDAF points, still unmatched. DPAF sensors obviously demonstrated that canon was serious. you don't change your entire fabrication line to support DPAF sensors for no good reason.
Dual Pixel is a good example of the incoherence of Canon's current mirrorless strategy. 17 million AF points translates to 64% coverage and 49 user-selectable points on the M5. The A6000 has 92% coverage and 179 user selectable points. What's the point in having 17 million points if it is beaten for coverage by a system with 179?
The year 2013 when Canon came up with the 70D, Sony came up with the first FF mirrorless, the A7. And there's been 5 more FF models since.
Again, sony did not come up with the first full frame mirrorless. the M9 was full frame years before. (*2009 I think)
Of course there is no mirror in a rangefinder camera but it would be disingenuous to claim that Leica invented the mirrorless camera - they just substituted a sensor for film in their rangefinder. The mirrorless camera is generally regarded as an ILC with a full time digital readout of the sensor for viewing and framing, either an EVF or a rear screen, and the M9 didn't have that. You could only review your pictures on the rear screen, there was no live view.
whare do it say that then .....
What other definition is there?
The concept is not a big deal anyway - it's essentially a pro-grade bridge camera with interchangeable lenses.
If you want crediblity, try to acknowledge when a company does something you like instead of these constant pokes at Sony.
If you want some credibility don't bring up sony in a conversation that had NOTHING to do with sony.. aka this thread. Not to mention I respond to your comments with facts and comments, and you tend to ignore them and respond.. yeah but sony....

That works well in the Sony forums and SAR. perhaps not so much out here.

Have they done good? sure. their products serve their limited customer base quite well, however they still haven't caught on to the majority of the buying public. The hype that surrounds Sony is far more than the actual people putting money down.
Like most things, the public decides, but no-one said it was a fair fight. We know from marketing analysis that Canon's brand awareness is sky high and probably the deepest in the market. It didn't get that way by chance - they were the market leaders in technology, but now they are the market leaders in sales.
I don't hate Sony. For me to hate Sony they would have to be relevant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a favoured brand - it's something we all do, across all areas of our lives. It becomes a problem when we use it to deny reality. Sony is driving modern camera development and has been doing so for many years now. They are undeniably relevant - in fact they could not be more relevant.
if sony is the driving force then why when in 2008 they had 12-14% market share selling DSLRs could not compete with Canikon so failed with DSLRs then they try SLTs again only hit 12-14% ..so another fail.....now sony has been selling MILC for...5 years? and have increased their market share by.....drum role....0% ......to me that's a fail which ever way you slice it .....did you know canon just picked up another 2% market share ....

i do feel sorry for sony putting so much R&D in MILC and if you search wikileaks you can find the leaked emails from sony head office that confirms the MILC R&D cost so much that it was one of the reasons that sony had the recent restructuring

so sony has revealed how the MILC market is going way better than canon could with no cost to canon ...(canon has lost no sales to sony..the numbers prove that)....canon has the tech for a excellent MILC ..it hidden in other cameras now never mind what thay are working on ...like the one of the big things with the A9 and is said to be a game changer it the EVF is real time with no black out at 20FPS ....canon has had that at 14 FPS 18 month ago with the 1DXii in live view... nobody has mentioned it as its not have an EVF..so not used...why would you for 2 FPS ...but that's immaterial canon can do it ...also DPAF .....that's screaming out for a MILC with lots of processing power...and i imagine the MK11 DPAF will be out for the Canon FF MILC i think canon will than have the best AF in a MILC
Canon leads in sales, Sony leads in technology. It's technology that makes cameras more useful to photographers - you can't take a photo with a balance sheet.

The A9 doesn't just have no viewfinder blackout Dave, it has full time AF calculation at 60fps a second thanks to the stacked sensor. And the 1DXII cannot track focus in live view at 14fps because the mirror is up and it is limited to Dual Pixel AF.

There is no FF Canon MILC. You think one is coming? I don't. Canon can't even put mp4 4k video in a DSLR. Where are they going to get the technology to make an A7rII, let alone an A9? They need to introduce a completely new range of mirrorless lenses, which they won't do because if they put their users in the situation of buying again they can switch brands.
If you don't accept this, take up your M3, or M5 or whatever mirrorless camera you have and consider that a camera like that, a mirrorless camera, got the same grade - 89% and matched or out-performed the 1DxII and D5 in a test on this website.

No matter how cynically pro Canon and anti Sony you are that's simply amazing. And it is undeniably very relevant to the future.
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My 5D IS a MK1 classic
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There is no argument for FF vs APS-c (or m43) with shallow DOF..as it's a law of physics and a very subjective personal thing if you want to make use of the shallow DOF only FF can offer
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You are joking ....i have a sony nex ...i think the designers was an anti photographer sadist ...the only way to make it more less enjoyable to use would be to superglue a drawing pin to the shutter button...pin up
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